102 replies to this topic

[Asmosis]

just go full stock. as soon as you start tinkering you have builds that are almost the same as fully optimized ones anyway. It'd be neat as a Solaris challenge mode. I think mechs using special equipment like DHS should probably be left out though, since they are mostly superior to other stock mechs. ECM should be fine though.

Edited by Asmosis, 10 April 2013 - 06:04 AM.

[Odanan]

Sybreed, on 09 April 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

actually, most of my mechs are "semi-stock".

I free up space for more ammo/heatsinks but I usually keep the same weapons. You'd be surprised how effective a jagermech is with enough ammo, armor, HS and dual AC/5 AC/2.

Same with the atlas or stalker. The fun thing is that you can fire multiple weapon systems at the same target. No longer in visual contact? Use LRMs. It dares get in your face? Lasers + SRMs.

It's a lot more fun that way IMO than boating stuff.


well this suggestion isn't for you then. Some of us want to play the canon roles of the mechs and care little about customization.

I would be surprising (and accurate) if the Community Warfare was played only with stock mechs... but I don`t think PGI has the balls for doing this.

[Slepnir]

i pretty much do that now with my dragon 1 C/grand dragon 5K
and my catapult K2.

Stock variants with some neccisary upgrades to make them compatible with MWO isnt all that bad actually.

[Ens]

well, when the first dual AC/20 Timberwolf, or the first quad ppc Timberwolf hits the game...... they better start thinking about more restrictions 8[

[Mercules]

Shumabot, on 09 April 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

The problem with MWO is, by in large, the fact that the tabletop game breaks down when you add in customization and they tried to directly press the tabletops math and customization systems into a live game.

Yes, the TT breaks down when you add in customization and don't use something like Battle Value to return the balance toward the middle. It never really hits perfect balance with customized mechs but it makes it closer.

They didn't really "directly press the tabletop's math" in the live game. They bastardized it. Doing it directly would have taken into account that the TT values are based off firing for 10 seconds and broken them up across that 10 seconds based on the rate of fire they wanted to give the weapons. They didn't do that and so really did not accurately bring TT values into the live action game.

[Flyby215]

I'd really like to see an all stock mode of some sort, although I don't think we have the population to do it just yet.

To the question of "would I", actually, I do on a regular basis anyway. I check out what the trial mechs are, dress my weapons and paint to stock, add the hidden upgrades like DHS, Artemis, and sort of sit back like I'm new. It's actually a lot of fun! I get looked at like "psh, noob" then BOOM! Oh sorry, did you think I was going to overheat after missing my shot? Then of course poke fun at people for kicking their butt in a trial mech, which is technically a lie, but they don't know that

Edited by Flyby215, 10 April 2013 - 07:25 AM.

[Shumabot]

Mercules, on 10 April 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

Yes, the TT breaks down when you add in customization and don't use something like Battle Value to return the balance toward the middle. It never really hits perfect balance with customized mechs but it makes it closer.

They didn't really "directly press the tabletop's math" in the live game. They bastardized it. Doing it directly would have taken into account that the TT values are based off firing for 10 seconds and broken them up across that 10 seconds based on the rate of fire they wanted to give the weapons. They didn't do that and so really did not accurately bring TT values into the live action game.

I know, i stated earlier that they just sort of pretended to lift the math of the game but kept most of its themes and tried to ape its mechanical systems. They needed to either adhere to it strongly (and made one of the worst games ever produced) or they needed to drift much further away from it. Without BV BT is terrible but BV doesn't translate into this kind of game. It didn't even work well in BT once you started customizing mechs.

The problem is that they keep outward math like "the ac20 does 20 damage" to keep BT vets happy, and they try to make an actual game around taboos like that. They need to drop the pretension and just do a math and mechanics pass, there's a lot wrong with the games current mathematical base.

[Mercules]

Shumabot, on 10 April 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

I know, i stated earlier that they just sort of pretended to lift the math of the game but kept most of its themes and tried to ape its mechanical systems. They needed to either adhere to it strongly (and made one of the worst games ever produced) or they needed to drift much further away from it. Without BV BT is terrible but BV doesn't translate into this kind of game. It didn't even work well in BT once you started customizing mechs.

The problem is that they keep outward math like "the ac20 does 20 damage" to keep BT vets happy, and they try to make an actual game around taboos like that. They need to drop the pretension and just do a math and mechanics pass, there's a lot wrong with the games current mathematical base.

A lot of BT vets wouldn't play if they changed things too much. We didn't come here to see the franchise revived to watch it become some generic mecha shooter. The BT/MW vets are the ones who would keep playing this game long after everyone else left and putting money into it if it was true enough to it's roots.

[Buckminster]

Shumabot, on 10 April 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

I know, i stated earlier that they just sort of pretended to lift the math of the game but kept most of its themes and tried to ape its mechanical systems. They needed to either adhere to it strongly (and made one of the worst games ever produced) or they needed to drift much further away from it. Without BV BT is terrible but BV doesn't translate into this kind of game. It didn't even work well in BT once you started customizing mechs.

The problem is that they keep outward math like "the ac20 does 20 damage" to keep BT vets happy, and they try to make an actual game around taboos like that. They need to drop the pretension and just do a math and mechanics pass, there's a lot wrong with the games current mathematical base.

It's actually two different issues.

First - BV is a matchmaking issue, not a game mechanic issue. BV would be one method they could have chosen to make sure that matches were better balanced, and it would have compensated for the effectiveness of certain variants and certain custom mech builds. It would have accounted for the fact that a stock C1 Catapult is not equivalent to one with Artemis, double heat sinks, medium pulse lasers and an XL engine. But BV has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they had to double armor, and fiddle with ammo counts, and the constant buff/nerf cycle of LRMs.

Second - the fundamental math of the game was altered as soon as they decided to opt for a pinpoint convergence, FPS-style shooting system. As soon as a mech is capable of putting every weapon in a fire group at the same hit location, the balance of damage vs heat vs armor is thrown completely out of whack. An alpha-strike build can take the risk of shutting down if it knows that it's 6 PPCs (or two AC/20s, or what have you) are going to hit the same location, with devastating results. 6 PPCs is nasty, but if you hit an arm, a leg, each side torso and the center torso twice, you are not going to have the same effect as putting all 6 in the center torso. 6 PPCs spread over the mech is a lot more survivable, which means that the shutdown risk generally isn't worth it.

And as for PGI catering to us old TT/MW guys, I know that I am an example of someone that is here only for that reason. Hawken may be a fantastic game, but I'll never know because the mech combat game I've been waiting for is one that is (even if only loosely) based on the game that I used to play. So while you may think it's been to the detriment of the game, my guess is half the founders (if not more) wouldn't be here without the Battletech franchise.

Edited by Buckminster, 10 April 2013 - 08:09 AM.

[TheForce]

Buckminster, on 10 April 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

And as for PGI catering to us old TT/MW guys, I know that I am an example of someone that is here only for that reason.

Me too.

My feeling is that the current game looks like MechWarrior, but it feels like "Generic Robots With Weapons" Online. Understandable as PGI needs to sell this game to the "average" gamer who doesn't care about battletech lore, pinpoint accuracy, etc., and we are a minority.

I hope that if the game becomes very successful they will implement a hard core mode. Until then I hope we can band together cause I'm getting no enjoyment out of FOTM MinmaxWarrior anymore.

[Joseph Mallan]

Some of the funnest games I have played on TT were with Stock Builds. Being that Stinger with no leg and half a torso still firing at the end of the match. Or a Warhammer that was using cover to have give +3 to hit mods while standing still.

Heat would need a fixing though.

[Ironwolf2029]

I am one would love to see stock mech game mode or even simi-stock game made but i dont think heat sink on mech should change since only difference in some mechs for vairants wwere that it acutaully had double. I Think be awsome sure customization fun and all but somtimes I just want play game that ran more closer to the lore so stock mech mode or semi-stock mode would be a fun gaming experince.

[TheForce]

Odanan, on 10 April 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

I would be surprising (and accurate) if the Community Warfare was played only with stock mechs... but I don`t think PGI has the balls for doing this.

Yes this!

I hear a lot of people say stock should apply to solaris only but that's the opposite of lore. The avg. Inner Sphere MechWarrior wouldn't have the resources to modify their mechs, but Solaris MechWarriors like Justin Xaing did have them.

I just hope there will eventually be a hard core CW game mode that runs parallel to the custom one.

[GODzillaGSPB]

With the recently increased onslaught of the swiss army with their cheese weapons of mass destruction...yes. Yes I would.

[Buckminster]

TheForce, on 10 April 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

Yes this!

I hear a lot of people say stock should apply to solaris only but that's the opposite of lore. The avg. Inner Sphere MechWarrior wouldn't have the resources to modify their mechs, but Solaris MechWarriors like Justin Xaing did have them.

I just hope there will eventually be a hard core CW game mode that runs parallel to the custom one.

Yeah, I was always under the impression that most mechs were basically stock, and that the only mechs that were wildly non-stock were found in mercenary corps - and that was usually a result of not being able to find spare parts.

Think of it - if you go through all of the tanks in our army today, I doubt you'd find much real variation.

[Shumabot]

Mercules, on 10 April 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

A lot of BT vets wouldn't play if they changed things too much. We didn't come here to see the franchise revived to watch it become some generic mecha shooter. The BT/MW vets are the ones who would keep playing this game long after everyone else left and putting money into it if it was true enough to it's roots.

I've stated it in the past but the "vets" are playing a dead game. It died for a reason. If they don't want it updated that's too bad because what they wan't is more of a dead game. They want a first class treatment of a game with gameplay and systems that won't sell therefore what they want is a fantasy.

[Mercules]

Shumabot, on 10 April 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

I've stated it in the past but the "vets" are playing a dead game. It died for a reason. If they don't want it updated that's too bad because what they wan't is more of a dead game. They want a first class treatment of a game with gameplay and systems that won't sell therefore what they want is a fantasy.

Not a dead game. Keep saying it is but fact of the matter is the TT books are still selling and "dead games" don't get 5 million in Founder's dollars based off the promise of a new version of them. MW:Living Legends and Mechwarrior 4 Mercenaries still being played are proof that the game is not dead.

[TheForce]

Ironwolf2029, on 10 April 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

I am one would love to see stock mech game mode or even simi-stock game made but i dont think heat sink on mech should change since only difference in some mechs for vairants wwere that it acutaully had double. I Think be awsome sure customization fun and all but somtimes I just want play game that ran more closer to the lore so stock mech mode or semi-stock mode would be a fun gaming experince.

Aym's rules aren't ideal, but they're something simple that everyone can understand. If we can establish a decent size stock community, we could make more complex rules too.

Edited by TheForce, 10 April 2013 - 11:27 AM.

[Target Rich]

Already done...called Mech Assault.

One of the many twitchy twitchy waste of time games in mecha...

BTW the real staying power of mecha is the obsession that happens in the mechlab. You work to tweak that mech...so the more options...the greater the obsession...

Stock mechs...are fundamentally BORING...you play a week...there is no PvE whatsoever anyway...so what is there to capture you past the first month???

[Shumabot]

Mercules, on 10 April 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Not a dead game. Keep saying it is but fact of the matter is the TT books are still selling and "dead games" don't get 5 million in Founder's dollars based off the promise of a new version of them. MW:Living Legends and Mechwarrior 4 Mercenaries still being played are proof that the game is not dead.

People still joust too, either way if you walk into any average game store and ask if "anyone wants to play battletech" you'll be lucky if one in 20 stores has someone say yes. That's dead. The game is on life support because old vets who will play it for the rest of their lives no matter what keep re ordering overpriced books made of phonebook paper. This game got 5 million dollars on a hope and a prayer during a time when 50 million dollars is the average AAA budget. The same people that funded it then are the ones buying 15 copies of 3050 mech holograms and who keep rebuying the same badly written game sourcebooks.

Games workshop could lose the entire worth of the battletech tabletop game in their couch and not be bothered to even look for it. So could privateer.

Edited by Shumabot, 10 April 2013 - 11:40 AM.