74 replies to this topic

[Terror Teddy]

Take a light mech with a majority of ballistic points.
-spider
-raven

Max out the amount of machineguns

Fill other possible spots with typical light/medium weapons like srm or small/medium lasers.

Now i want you to face other light mechs whose primary weapons are energy or missiles (small,medium lasers and srm).

Now i want you to TEST how well the machine gun armed light mechs do in combat in 1vs1 combat against other energy/missile mechs like Jenner and Commandos and tell me how you will manage to get through their armour when a majority of your weapons cannot do this outside of testing areas and plenty of time against stationary targets.

Then you will show us how well you did or challenge the community to fight your MG equipped doom machines.

Show me how a light ballistic mech armed with light mech weapos can fight other light mechs with the crit-seekers of doom.

Edited by Terror Teddy, 10 April 2013 - 07:41 AM.

[AC]

Heck, even the Cicada 3C is junk unless you make it unto the 'Hunchie light' and go big balistic in the toros.

[Infernus1986]

It really should be mandatory for all PGI employees to play the version of the game that we play at some point every day.
Its like they play some other mechwarrior game where there are 3 second jenners and 6 mg spiders.

[hammerreborn]

I've killed people using only narcs, flamers, and mgs in a founders catapult, I think they can manage killing people in spiders. I know I can.

[KingCobra]

Lets put the record straight on machine guns and light ballistic weapons in MechWarrior. First Machine guns have always been for PVE in campaigns in the older MechWarrior games period. One or two machine guns have always been useless now there have been in the past mechs that have boated machine guns (Annihilator) 14-16 machine guns which tore the crap out of any mech under 150 meter range but totally useless over 150.The problem is ballistics are so heavy and Mektek tried to compensate for this with Light AC2- Light AC5 and a few other non cannon weapons for lights and it worked to a degree. The other option is 1 large AC10-AC20 or LBX10-20. AC2-5 are almost useless in lights because of low ammo count per ton and the weapons weight per ton. Below 16 machine gun annihilator 100tons------->

Edited by KingCobra, 10 April 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[Colddawg]

Have you ever shot a metal/armor plate with a gun? Do you know what happens?

How about a piece of ceramic/Kevlar body armor? Do you know what happens then?

Think about this. There's tons of armor between your mgs and the soft and chewy internals. Do you really think an mg can punch through even a half ton of ablative armor in less than a minute?

It's working as intended.

[Jace Lancer]

A machine gun that weighs half a ton will turn all those things you mentioned to DUST. Think A10 ripping a tank to sheds. Not an m249 saw.

Edited by Jace Lancer, 10 April 2013 - 08:00 AM.

[DaZur]

A limited role Mech with bad hard-points does not not vindicate the MG arguments...

While I hate the whole reality versus fantasy argument bothers the hell out of me, anyone arguing for a buff the MG has never fired a round into armor plating...

As far as MW:O is concerned MG might as well be spit-wads until the armor is breached.

It's an infantry / crit weapon and since we don't have infantry... guess what that leaves us?

I wish my car could fly too but sometimes you have to accept certain realities...

[KingCobra]

Jace Lancer, on 10 April 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

A machine gun that weighs half a ton will turn all those things you mentioned to DUST. Think A10 ripping a tank to sheds. Not an m249 saw.

A A10 uses this--A 30 MM Vulcan cannon machine guns use small caliber rounds so lets not confuse the two. Also MechWarrior has rotary Cannons there just not present in the time line were playing in.Link to MechWarrior rotary cannon information http://wiki.mechlivi...ary_AutoCannons -->

Edited by KingCobra, 10 April 2013 - 08:05 AM.

[Deathlike]

TBH, with the current state of the LBX10, the stock Annihilator of 4 med pulse and 4 LBX10 is pretty much crap on arrival.

[Colddawg]

The Vulcan 30 mm has the same rating as a rotary autocannon 2

[Gen Kumon]

KingCobra, on 10 April 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

A A10 uses this--A 30 MM Vulcan cannon machine guns use small caliber rounds so lets not confuse the two. Also MechWarrior has rotary Cannons there just not present in the time line were playing in.Link to MechWarrior rotary cannon information http://wiki.mechlivi...ary_AutoCannons -->

...you...you realize the machine guns in Battletech are actually 20mm gatling guns, right? They aren't .50 cals.

[Tickdoff Tank]

KingCobra, on 10 April 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

A A10 uses this--A 30 MM Vulcan cannon machine guns use small caliber rounds so lets not confuse the two. Also MechWarrior has rotary Cannons there just not present in the time line were playing in.-->

The weight of the GAU8 cannon is roughly the same as a MWO MG, including the weight of the rounds.

From Wiki: The GAU-8 itself weighs 620 pounds (280 kg), but the complete weapon, with feed system and drum, weighs 4,029 pounds (1,828 kg) with a maximum ammunition load.

(2000 lbs for a ton, so the GAU8+ammo weighs 0.5 tons more than the MWO MG, but the actual rifle weighs less than the BT MG, of course the weight of ammo and weapon must also include feed mechanisms, ammo belts or whatever)

a BT MG is not just an anti personnel weapon. It is capable of destroying a mech, just like a small laser is. Keeping the MG in such a pitiful state compared to the small laser is just plain wrong.

Edited by Tickdoff Tank, 10 April 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[tenderloving]

Colddawg, on 10 April 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

Have you ever shot a metal/armor plate with a gun? Do you know what happens?

How about a piece of ceramic/Kevlar body armor? Do you know what happens then?

Think about this. There's tons of armor between your mgs and the soft and chewy internals. Do you really think an mg can punch through even a half ton of ablative armor in less than a minute?

It's working as intended.

DaZur, on 10 April 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

A limited role Mech with bad hard-points does not not vindicate the MG arguments...

While I hate the whole reality versus fantasy argument bothers the hell out of me, anyone arguing for a buff the MG has never fired a round into armor plating...

As far as MW:O is concerned MG might as well be spit-wads until the armor is breached.

It's an infantry / crit weapon and since we don't have infantry... guess what that leaves us?

I wish my car could fly too but sometimes you have to accept certain realities...

The A-10 Warthog would like a word with you. Its main cannon weighs as much as the MW machine gun.

But stop trying to argue through reality. This is a weapon in a game; it should be viable and useable.

[Texas Merc]

I just want to see the devs try this and end the debate or just remove MG altogether. They have to be terribly confusing to new players in their current state anyway.

[Zyllos]

Machine guns are just that, machine guns.

The only issue I have with machine guns are how the mechanics for ammo explosions do not favor them. You get a 10% chance when destroying an ammo bin to cause an ammo explosion. That is bad considering they have 10 HP (which will take many critical hits for the machine gun to kill it) and are only 1 critical slot large.

Directly destroying an ammo bin should be like 50% or higher for an ammo explosion. When destroying the section should you get a 10% chance of an ammo explosion for each non-empty ammo bin. This rewards critical seeking weapons for finding ammo.

Also, reducing the HP of the ammo bin (and many other weapons, like Small/Medium Lasers) also boosts the viability of critical seeking weapons without actually buffing larger, harder hitting weapons because they already destroy items in one hit.

This is what I would do with HP for various equipment:

Quote

Ballistic weaponry should have the highest HP:

AC/2 & Machine Gun - 4 HP
Gauss Rifle - 5 HP
AC/5 - 7 HP
UAC/5 - 7 HP
AC/10 - 12 HP
AC/20 - 18 HP

The next lowest should be Missile weaponry:

LRM/5 & SRM/2 & SSRM/2 - 3 HP
LRM/10 & SRM/4 - 5 HP
LRM/15 & SRM/6 - 7 HP
LRM/20 - 10 HP

The lowest should be Energy weaponry:

SL & SPL & ML & MPL & Flamer - 2 HP
LL & LPL & ERLL - 4 HP
ERPPC & PPC - 6 HP

All equipment should have 1 HP per critical slot:

GECM - 2 HP (might already be implemented)
AMS - 1 HP
NARC - 2 HP
TAG - 1 HP
BAP - 2 HP

All ammo bins should be 2 HP. Ammo should have a 50% chance of explosion when destroyed. A 10% chance when a section is destroyed with ammo bins.

The LBX still needs to have a much tigher radius. It should be landing 80%+ of it's shots on a medium sized target at optimal range.

Edited by Zyllos, 10 April 2013 - 08:22 AM.

[EvilCow]

KingCobra, on 10 April 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

Lets put the record straight on machine guns and light ballistic weapons in MechWarrior. First Machine guns have always been for PVE in campaigns in the older MechWarrior games period.

Not true, in MW2 mgus were useful backups. In MW4 mguns were not that good but usable.

Edited by EvilCow, 10 April 2013 - 08:19 AM.

[tenderloving]

hammerreborn, on 10 April 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

I've killed people using only narcs, flamers, and mgs in a founders catapult, I think they can manage killing people in spiders. I know I can.

1.How long did it take you? Because players have collected objective data that shows there exists no scenario where you wouldn't have been better off with any other weapon.

2. The Founders Catapult doesn't have ballistic mounts.

If this was a clever troll I apologize, otherwise you're lying or demented.

[Training Instructor]

Colddawg, on 10 April 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

Have you ever shot a metal/armor plate with a gun? Do you know what happens?

How about a piece of ceramic/Kevlar body armor? Do you know what happens then?

Think about this. There's tons of armor between your mgs and the soft and chewy internals. Do you really think an mg can punch through even a half ton of ablative armor in less than a minute?

It's working as intended.

Let me stop you there. A battletech/MWO machine gun weighs .5 tons, or 1000 pounds. You say it can't do anything against armor?

Let me introduce the GAU-8 Avenger to you. It's a 30mm gatling gun that weighs 619.5 pounds empty, almost half the weight of a battletech machine gun.

What was it designed for? Well, funny you should ask. I'll just let the wikipedia entry speak for itself.

"The General Electric GAU-8/A Avenger is a 30 mm hydraulically-driven seven-barrel Gatling-type cannon that is typically mounted to the United States Air Force Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II. Designed specifically for the anti-tank role, the Avenger delivers very powerful rounds at a high rate of fire."

http://en.wikipedia....i/GAU-8_Avenger

Are you done talking about how a 1000 pound machine gun should be useless against armor?

Edited by Training Instructor, 10 April 2013 - 08:21 AM.

[KingCobra]

Gen Kumon, on 10 April 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

...you...you realize the machine guns in Battletech are actually 20mm gatling guns, right? They aren't .50 cals.

IN Battletech/MechWarrior or the real world 20MM Machine guns ETC are considered small caliber weapons compared to 30MM on up caliber weapons. There is a huge difference in weapon damages 30MM and up.--> http://wiki.mechlivi....php?title=MGun --Standard 20MM DE766 Anti Aircraft & small craft repelent--->

Edited by KingCobra, 10 April 2013 - 08:21 AM.