74 replies to this topic

[Jace Lancer]

KingCobra, on 10 April 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

A A10 uses this--A 30 MM Vulcan cannon machine guns use small caliber rounds so lets not confuse the two. Also MechWarrior has rotary Cannons there just not present in the time line were playing in.Link to MechWarrior rotary cannon information http://wiki.mechlivi...ary_AutoCannons -->

I see by the time I got around to it some people already beat me but the mh ammo 1 pound =1 round which would put it around the 20,30mm anti-material round area..

[KingCobra]

EvilCow, on 10 April 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

Not true, in MW2 mgus were useful backups. In MW4 mguns were not that good but usable.

I will agree and disagree with you MGS were only useful in mech battles to #1 distract opponents or #2 as a secondary weapon to destroy a mech after it had already been 90% destroyed by larger weapon types. Most used the MG's in the campaigns to kill infantry and small tanks and missile carriers tanks.

[Critical Fumble]

There's also the bit about thinking that a universe with laser death rays and potable fusion reactors wouldn't have enhanced ballistic propellants as well.

The "working as intended" challenge is a bit silly though, considering that the intent may well be for them to be awful, in which case the only appropriate response is *headdesk* followed by an explanation of how that adversely effects the game.

[stjobe]

KingCobra, on 10 April 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

A A10 uses this--A 30 MM Vulcan cannon [,] machine guns use small caliber rounds so lets not confuse the two.

Just what the hell do you think a 500kg, 'mech-mounted, 1000-years-in-the-future "Machine Gun" is?

The only calibre listed for MGs in any of the canon is 20mm, and they're also designated as "Vulcan" - meaning they are what we today call "rotary cannons".

They just happen to be called "Machine Guns" a 1000 years in the future, but they have nothing to do with modern-day man-portable machine guns other than the name.

[FupDup]

I like it when people try to compare our 500 kilogram, 20MM Gatling Gun to a Kalashnikov-47, especially when used against ablative armor (which is designed specifically to break apart at the surface when shot at to deflect force from the unit).

Actually, I don't like it. I f*cking hate it. People who do it need to DIAF.

Edited by FupDup, 10 April 2013 - 08:32 AM.

[B E E L Z E B U B]

hammerreborn, on 10 April 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

I've killed people using only narcs, flamers, and mgs in a founders catapult, I think they can manage killing people in spiders. I know I can.

are you feeling good about yourself?

[hammerreborn]

tenderloving, on 10 April 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

1.How long did it take you? Because players have collected objective data that shows there exists no scenario where you wouldn't have been better off with any other weapon.

2. The Founders Catapult doesn't have ballistic mounts.

If this was a clever troll I apologize, otherwise you're lying or demented.

You're right, I thought the founders was 2-2-2 (i've basically only used it twice). 4 Flamers and 2 narcs and I achieved a kill in both games I used it after I was told it couldn't kill anything (have the screenies but can't access photobucket from work).

Ive killed 3Ls in a 6 flamer jenner, and atlases solo with a spider K with 4 MGs and a laser.

Is it worthwhile? Not really. But blanket statements "hurr hurr play a spider with machine guns and you can't kill anything" are stupid because I can and I will.

Also: team game, who cares about 1v1 fights. Next you'll tell me an A1 with all LRMs can't beat a jenner solo that's within 180m, so LRMs are useless.

Karma Police, on 10 April 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

are you feeling good about yourself?

I always feel good about myself, cause I'm pretty freakin awesome.

[Squirtbox]

MechWarrior and BattleTech in general run on SPACE MAGIC! Don't bring reality into the game.

That said MGs and Flamers are in game and should be useful and not that LOLCRITSEEKING since that has been proven to be complete crap.

[Tickdoff Tank]

tenderloving, on 10 April 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

But stop trying to argue through reality. This is a weapon in a game; it should be viable and useable.

^^ THIS

If the MG is not going to be buffed to a useful level then it should be removed from the game. I don't want to see it leave.

[Tennex]

DaZur, on 10 April 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

A limited role Mech with bad hard-points does not not vindicate the MG arguments...

While I hate the whole reality versus fantasy argument bothers the hell out of me, anyone arguing for a buff the MG has never fired a round into armor plating...

As far as MW:O is concerned MG might as well be spit-wads until the armor is breached.

It's an infantry / crit weapon and since we don't have infantry... guess what that leaves us?

I wish my car could fly too but sometimes you have to accept certain realities...

Ballisics light mechs are a limited role? Are ballistic heavy/medium/assault mechs overlooked?

What makes you think light mechs with ballistic hard points should be ignored.

Edited by Tennex, 10 April 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[Tickdoff Tank]

hammerreborn, on 10 April 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

You're right, I thought the founders was 2-2-2 (i've basically only used it twice). 4 Flamers and 2 narcs and I achieved a kill in both games I used it after I was told it couldn't kill anything (have the screenies but can't access photobucket from work).

Ive killed 3Ls in a 6 flamer jenner, and atlases solo with a spider K with 4 MGs and a laser.

Is it worthwhile? Not really. But blanket statements "hurr hurr play a spider with machine guns and you can't kill anything" are stupid because I can and I will.

Also: team game, who cares about 1v1 fights. Next you'll tell me an A1 with all LRMs can't beat a jenner solo that's within 180m, so LRMs are useless.



I always feel good about myself, cause I'm pretty freakin awesome.

Yes, it is possible to kill another mech with flamers and MGs in their current state. However, ANY other weapon in the game will do it MUCH better.

In every game there are weapons that are less effective than others, there is always a "best" and "worst" weapon/equipment. But, in almost every other game* I have played, the worst weapons were still better by comparison than the MWO MG.

*I said "almost" as a hedge, I can't think of any other game that had a weapon as bad as our MG, but it is possible that I am forgetting one.

edit: cleaned it up a bit

Edited by Tickdoff Tank, 10 April 2013 - 08:41 AM.

[tenderloving]

hammerreborn, on 10 April 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

.

Is it worthwhile? Not really. But blanket statements "hurr hurr play a spider with machine guns and you can't kill anything" are stupid because I can and I will.

.

Most people have the cognitive ability to insert the understood "in a competitive manner" into the phrase "you can't kill anything." Nobody is actually arguing that it's physically impossible to get a kill with an MG. It's been proven that you can, but it takes a long time and every other weapon does it better.

Why whould a weapon exist where it is never a viable competitive choice?

[syngyne]

KingCobra, on 10 April 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

A A10 uses this--A 30 MM Vulcan cannon machine guns use small caliber rounds so lets not confuse the two. Also MechWarrior has rotary Cannons there just not present in the time line were playing in

Derail, but this is a minor pet peeve of mine. Just because a weapon has multiple rotating barrels does not make it a Vulcan. The Vulcan is a specific weapon, the M61 20mm that gets loaded on a lot of US Aircraft. The weapon on an A-10 is called the Avenger.

[Tennex]

KingCobra, on 10 April 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

A A10 uses this--A 30 MM Vulcan cannon machine guns use small caliber rounds so lets not confuse the two. Also MechWarrior has rotary Cannons there just not present in the time line were playing in.Link to MechWarrior rotary cannon information http://wiki.mechlivi...ary_AutoCannons -->

Wait. Let me wrap my head around this. You think mechs us the machine guns we use today. And thats why they shoildnt be effective against mechs

But i dont remember infantry machine guns weighing 1.5 ton with ammo. Do you?
Hmm maybe mech machine guns are just that. Machineguns for mechs against mechs

Edited by Tennex, 10 April 2013 - 08:43 AM.

[hammerreborn]

Squirtbox, on 10 April 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

MechWarrior and BattleTech in general run on SPACE MAGIC! Don't bring reality into the game.

That said MGs and Flamers are in game and should be useful and not that LOLCRITSEEKING since that has been proven to be complete crap.

Flamers aren't even that crit seeking. Their multiplier is abysmally low that it's not even noticable for whatever reason.

tenderloving, on 10 April 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

Most people have the cognitive ability to insert the understood "in a competitive manner" into the phrase "you can't kill anything." Nobody is actually arguing that it's physically impossible to get a kill with an MG. It's been proven that you can, but it takes a long time and every other weapon does it better.

Why whould a weapon exist where it is never a viable competitive choice?

Because it's hilarious to use. Nothing is more fun than a flamerboat.

[KingCobra]

Tickdoff Tank, on 10 April 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

^^ THIS

If the MG is not going to be buffed to a useful level then it should be removed from the game. I don't want to see it leave.

I think your right a slight increase in MG damage output but not to the point all lights can have 2-4 machineguns and be OP we really don't need anymore balance issues in MWO and without a 100 meter 360 degree radar which were supposed to have already lights would be super OP back shooting everyone even more. BT/MW links Auto cannon--> http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon -->MG'S--> http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Machine_Gun--> Rotary--> http://www.sarna.net...tary_Autocannon

Edited by KingCobra, 10 April 2013 - 08:48 AM.

[jeffsw6]

KingCobra, on 10 April 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

Lets put the record straight on machine guns and light ballistic weapons in MechWarrior. First Machine guns have always been for PVE in campaigns in the older MechWarrior games period

But you HAVE TO PLAY THE SDR-5K if you want to elite Spiders! Since there is no PVE content and no infantry units in the game, and no light-weight ballistic weapon choices which are reasonable for the SDR-5K, it is a gimp variant.

No one would care if there were light auto-cannons in the 1 - 3 ton range which did reasonable damage. This is why no one really cares that Flamers suck -- a whole lot of other lasers have similar ton and slot requirements, making energy-weapons a viable choice.

If you took away all weapons between the Small Laser and Large Pulse Laser, that would gimp almost every light and most medium mechs. That's the current situation for light and medium mechs which have little or no ability to equip energy- or missle-type weapons, but have a lot of ballistic points.

In other words, it's not about the weapon; it's about the variants that are gimp because of the hard-point system.

[jeffsw6]

Tennex, on 10 April 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Wait. Let me wrap my head around this. You think mechs us the machine guns we use today. And thats why they shoildnt be effective against mechs

Good thing we aren't using those pesky 2013 lasers, right?

I don't see why anyone thinks the in-game weapons are remotely related to 2013 technology.

[General Taskeen]

KingCobra, on 10 April 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

I will agree and disagree with you MGS were only useful in mech battles to #1 distract opponents or #2 as a secondary weapon to destroy a mech after it had already been 90% destroyed by larger weapon types. Most used the MG's in the campaigns to kill infantry and small tanks and missile carriers tanks.

... In Mech Warrior 3 I can destroy a Mech with 2 MG's and 200 ammo, because they made it exactly how its supposed to be.

Edited by General Taskeen, 10 April 2013 - 08:56 AM.

[KingCobra]

jeffsw6, on 10 April 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

But you HAVE TO PLAY THE SDR-5K if you want to elite Spiders! Since there is no PVE content and no infantry units in the game, and no light-weight ballistic weapon choices which are reasonable for the SDR-5K, it is a gimp variant.

No one would care if there were light auto-cannons in the 1 - 3 ton range which did reasonable damage. This is why no one really cares that Flamers suck -- a whole lot of other lasers have similar ton and slot requirements, making energy-weapons a viable choice.

If you took away all weapons between the Small Laser and Large Pulse Laser, that would gimp almost every light and most medium mechs. That's the current situation for light and medium mechs which have little or no ability to equip energy- or missle-type weapons, but have a lot of ballistic points.

In other words, it's not about the weapon; it's about the variants that are gimp because of the hard-point system.

You are right we have no PVE with AERO/Light tanks/infantry for the MG's to be really useful. Now we get into the real role of a light mech? Light mechs are #1Scouts #2 harasser mechs to distract a opponent so larger mechs could take them out. Lights were only single combatants when they were placed in that situation against other lights or bigger mechs. There objective never was to be a solo fighting mech but a group orientated mech. My favorite light and scout--->>