124 replies to this topic

[Corwin Vickers]

aniviron, on 10 April 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

Apparently most people agree with you. According to the data hammerreborn collected this weekend, only 11% of mechs on the field are lights; over two thirds are heavy or assault.

You should all look at the data in this excellent thread: results to date on page six: http://mwomercs.com/...ection-weekend/

What his data shows is that lights are not rewarded equally for their efforts and are biased against in many regions of the game. That is why people aren't piloting them.

Taron, on 10 April 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

Well, lights SHOULD be fast, but here, in MWO, something is wrong about that. Mayby it's cause lights can use enough weapons to be dangerouse to even an heavy mech. They SHOULD be able to use theire speed to do damage, but the only fast mech, that is in ballance now, is the Cicada. Cause it can be fast, very fast, but it can't have much weapons.

See, the ONLY weapon the original Raven in the books had, was a PPC ....

As others have pointed out, you are incorrect about the raven. You are also incorrect about the composition of units in the books as most mechs in the books are lights and mediums.

Only in MWO are heavies and assaults 2/3rds of all mechs.

Profiteer, on 11 April 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

I've come to the conclusion that people who think lights are annoying or OP are just bad players.

I have no trouble killing any light in my: atlas or stalker.

Ditto. Being able to one shot the enemy is no good if you can't hit the broad side of a barn. Being able to last minutes of return fire while only having to hit the enemy at most twice isn't enough of an advantage to some people. Usually it's 2 lights versus 1 assault and yet the assault thinks it has the RIGHT to win despite being terribad.

Morang, on 11 April 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

Few lights already. Less than 12%. This is twice less than should be in case of even prominense of weight classes (all 25%) and 2.5x less than typical Inner Sphere weight class distribution (30/40/20/10 percents L/M/H/A).

Thank you.

Purplefluffybunny, on 11 April 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

Without any form of collision detection lights are always going to get an artificial advantage. L2P does not hold water as a counter argument to this statement. 6mths for a fix is not acceptable given that the game is essentially released and that PGI keep trying expand the ways they can make money.

There is a form of collision detection in the game now and there is even damage. While I agree that mechs should not be able to clip through other mechs I think the whole "when collision detection comes in light pilots are going to hate it" springs from the general population's ignorance of physics.

Because of the cube square law light mechs are stronger than assault mechs. It's the same reason you don't see ants the size of dogs.

Also, in a collision between an assault and a light mech they both take the same damage. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. People have done calculations in newtons but how you compare newtons to damage in Battletech? My feeling is that if 35 tons hit the legs of a 100 ton mech at 150kph you would have a destroyed 35 ton mech and a legless 100 ton mech. How fun would that be?

According to the board game both mechs would have a chance to fall down. In fact, any time we take more than 20 damage inside of 10 seconds we should be making a piloting roll to keep standing from losing tons of weight from our mech. Now if you have trouble hitting light mechs would you really want to be fighting falling down basically the entire time you were out of cover?

Really what people are saying when they want collisions is they want an artificial crutch that only hurts lightmechs because they have trouble hitting things that aren't walking straight towards them at 46kph until both mechs are hugging each other and then one falls down dead.

So yes, it is a L2P issue.

And to show that I have no bias Stalkers are my favorite mechs. FYI it probably takes more games to master a spider.
Mech' Matches Played HUNCHBACK HBK-4P 3 JENNER JR7-D 5 JENNER JR7-F 5 COMMANDO COM-2D 10 CATAPULT CPLT-C1 73 CATAPULT CPLT-A1 112 ATLAS AS7-D 162 ATLAS AS7-RS 14 CATAPULT CPLT-K2 31 JENNER JR7-K 18 ATLAS AS7-K 19 RAVEN RVN-3L 16 STALKER STK-5M 51 STALKER STK-3F 132 STALKER STK-5S 134 SPIDER SDR-5V 52 SPIDER SDR-5D 56 SPIDER SDR-5K 59

[Marcus Cvellus]

I dont know what you guys want? This is (should be) battletech. Lights, and good light pilots were blight for heavier mechs a lot more back in the day.

You complain about not enough explosions, while blatantly disregarding that there is 4x-8x more damage flying around than on TT, while light mechs remained same. Didnt get any bigger damage output, are easier to hit (no chance to miss) than in TT, and have to go against 2x armor (maybe even 4x armor if forums get their way) and 3x-4x damage output when they are on receiving end. Uphill battle.
Doesn't statistic that there is less than 11% of mech piloted are lights? Not specific light, but ALL lights.

And again, you get to cry over because they are killing you on occasion, shift battle in their favor, or plainly irritate you by not being a free kill, all during fighting uphill battle.

[Corwin Vickers]

Sean von Steinike, on 10 April 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

Running lights got kinda boring without collisions.

"Running lights got kinda boring without suddenly tripping on mechs that were no where near me, then falling on the ground where the mechs that intentionally tripped me because they didn't have the ability to learn to lead, are now standing around trying to shoot me while I warp around on the ground. They then kill be before I ever get to stand up."

Does that really sound like something anyone, except the guys who can't aim, would miss?

How about change "lights" to "assaults." Does that sound like fun?


Despite being unrealistic as I pointed out above, is it fair?

[Purplefluffybunny]

Corwin Vickers, on 11 April 2013 - 03:09 AM, said:

There is a form of collision detection in the game now and there is even damage. While I agree that mechs should not be able to clip through other mechs I think the whole "when collision detection comes in light pilots are going to hate it" springs from the general population's ignorance of physics

my emphasis

Yeah, thanks for the slap to the face here lol. I was just basing my assertion on the probability of knockdown as per the mechanic we had. For every time I collide with this specific mech, whilst piloting this specific mech, how many times do I or it get knocked down? Previously lights had it bad.

Edited by Purplefluffybunny, 11 April 2013 - 03:35 AM.

[Corwin Vickers]

Purplefluffybunny, on 11 April 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

I was just basing my assertion on the probability of knockdown as per the mechanic we had.

You're probably right and they will put something in that is essentially the old system without the warping. I hope you're not.

Obviously PGI intended lights to have it bad before otherwise they would have had a better system.

I think my following post is a pretty good description of how collisions worked before.

Quote

"Running lights got kinda boring without suddenly tripping on mechs that were no where near me, then falling on the ground where the mechs that intentionally tripped me because they didn't have the ability to learn to lead, are now standing around trying to shoot me while I warp around on the ground. They then kill me before I ever get to stand up."

That was only fun if you think getting a gang of friends together to beat a little kid to death with baseball bats is fun.

[Eternal Hunter]

HSR for all weapons, increased light mech speeds (netcode fixes needed) and implementation of collisions will make it good in the end i think

[Taemien]

RainbowToh, on 11 April 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

Mouse aim = Double Armor

Do you know what a 200pt armor Jenner running 11 hexes would do in TT? Did you think that through?

[DerSpecht]

Purplefluffybunny, on 11 April 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

Without any form of collision detection lights are always going to get an artificial advantage.

Good god.. why dont u try plaing the game sometimes? i already died from collision in my 3L because i had my armor stripped and charged into an atlas by accident. I ran into his back so he didnt shoot me.

So there IS collision detection.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 10 April 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

Glad you enjoy one aspect of the game

Me, on the other hand, loves the challenge of being the smallest, most fragile thing on the battlefield - and then taking out multiples of your own weight in enemy 'mechs. Nothing quite like the rush you get when you know that any mistake at all will be your last.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

TT I did not run lights. Here I can but prefer to run something bigger.

[Target Rich]

Children...children....one word here....

BATTLETECH....

Battletech is a multilayered combined weapons reflection of a modern battlefield environment using Mechs instead of tanks...

All decent tank units have scout vehicles like the Bradley that can run fast do the sensor suite thing and relay that info back to the main tank punchers while doing some limited damage themselves...

The light vehicles...the light mechs are one of the reasons the game should work..just like the missile boats/artillery are there to keep the snipers and assaults HONEST....and keep the stupid game from being yet another gears of war with mech skins...

Frankly...I personally think that the "scoring" and resource earning models in this game are fundamentally biased towards the damage capacity of the assault mechs...

people ONLY play the lights because they are fun...

There is no effective combined arms play out there right now except by accident because the game beta does not yet support unit drops...nor voice communication...nor friendly unit ID....nor data sharing of sensor data between scouts and the anvil side of the unit plays...and on and on...

Right now all we have is a mere taste of hopefully is to come...Personally I hold out the hope that 13 years after MW4 ended that this current effort captures just a tiny amount of the team play environment that was a given in that excellent FASA product..

As a previous founding member of Federated Suns in both MW3 and MW4...I really want this to work....heck I would to see a StarLance league come together on a protected...greatly expanded....and debugged version of this engine...so that we could have REAL unit competition again...

Ah well...this beta has lots of promise...but there is a HUGE amount of work to do here to get this beta up to even basic functionality....

Hope they get it going...cause otherwise...I am back to playing other genres...

[Yokaiko]

Corwin Vickers, on 11 April 2013 - 03:09 AM, said:

Also, in a collision between an assault and a light mech they both take the same damage. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. People have done calculations in newtons but how you compare newtons to damage in Battletech? My feeling is that if 35 tons hit the legs of a 100 ton mech at 150kph you would have a destroyed 35 ton mech and a legless 100 ton mech. How fun would that be?

Leave physics out of it 35ton mech hitting a 100 ton mech at full speed would essentially vaporize both of them, the energy is in the terajoules.

Its an 18 wheeler and a half running 76mph.

[DerSpecht]

Yokaiko, on 11 April 2013 - 05:22 AM, said:

Leave physics out of it 35ton mech hitting a 100 ton mech at full speed would essentially vaporize both of them, the energy is in the terajoules.

Dont talk about physics. If real physics would apply in this game the constant shaking up and down in a walking mech would make you puke in under 90 seconds.

[IceCase88]

Is the netcode borked again? When cruising at 152.7 kph in my JR7-F I teleport all over the place. I am running and suddenly I am running into an obstacle (building, rock wall, debris, etc.). It is making my lights unplayable.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Although I am primarily a Heavy pilot (& Hunchback), and I do hate getting mobbed and killed by the mulitple little buggers, I do like playing with lights in the game. Besides, lights tend not to like my Swayback too much

I do think that once Community Warfare is implemented, There may be more tonnage specific missions or engagements implemented as well. We will have to see.

[Grayseven]

Taron, on 10 April 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

Hm.... good point....

Well, lights SHOULD be fast, but here, in MWO, something is wrong about that. Mayby it's cause lights can use enough weapons to be dangerouse to even an heavy mech. They SHOULD be able to use theire speed to do damage, but the only fast mech, that is in ballance now, is the Cicada. Cause it can be fast, very fast, but it can't have much weapons.

See, the ONLY weapon the original Raven in the books had, was a PPC ....

Oh really? So the Cicada's I see with dual PPC's don't have much in weapons? They may not have a lot of hardpoints but that doesn't mean they can't mount serious firepower.

Take the 3L for example. I've run a 3L without missiles and just two LL's and had just as much success with it as I have with the 3ML 2SSRM version.

I've put dual ERLL's in a Jenner and played mini-poptart sniper with it...running to a new firing position the moment I get targeted. It's annoying as heck, and it's only two weapons.

No lights might be fun occasionally, but light mechs force players to think more tactically. Your measured advance is all well and good but I've seen an organized advance turn into a barn dance with one pass of a light fast mech through their lines...

[Grayseven]

Yokaiko, on 11 April 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

Leave physics out of it 35ton mech hitting a 100 ton mech at full speed would essentially vaporize both of them, the energy is in the terajoules.

Its an 18 wheeler and a half running 76mph.

Max load on an 18 Wheeler is 40 tons total weight without oversized, overweight permits (standard semi). Of course, big rigs aren't armored war machines with padded restraint systems for the drivers so the results of collisions with them is pretty spectacular...

[Jack Lazarus]

MeiSooHaityu, on 11 April 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

Besides, lights tend not to like my Swayback too much

When I'm in a Commando, the swayback is the one and only mech I will go out of my way to avoid getting their attention. Good torso flexibility and speed with 40 pinpoint damage and no projectile speed is a dangerous foe. At least, so long as they prove they can aim. If I see a swayback tossing those lasers around like a drunk whizzing in the snow, I'm not so worried.

[stjobe]

Public service announcement #34926-b:

Collisions are still in-game. Ever noticed your leg armour going yellow when that fat Assault pushes by you at the start of the match? That's collision damage.

Knockdowns were removed, and rightly so, since they were a buggy mess.

[Viper69]

I think there is a place for them all really.

[Kell Draygo]

stjobe, on 11 April 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

Public service announcement #34926-b:

Collisions are still in-game. Ever noticed your leg armour going yellow when that fat Assault pushes by you at the start of the match? That's collision damage.

Knockdowns were removed, and rightly so, since they were a buggy mess.

Collision damage should do more than turning the armor yellow, especially if it's an Atlas stepping on a Light Mech.