82 replies to this topic

[WhiteRabbit]

This whole hold the line thing started on the smaller maps.. on those maps long-range is (700-800m)--> if you all pull back at max speed, you'll most likely pay for that with some (if not all) of your assault mechs. e.g.trading one hunch for an atlas and an awesome....of course with the new (and way bigger) maps pulling back together is often the best choice/ on the smaller maps it'll most likely get you into trouble.

Edited by WhiteRabbit, 10 April 2013 - 04:15 PM.

[Jman5]

I think many times, peeling off entirely to defend the base is a viable strategy.

That said, the realities on the ground often make it difficult to do in a PuG match.

1. Sometimes positions aren't random and holding them gives your team a tactical advantage. In cases like this, it would be unwise to just cede it to the enemy unopposed.

2. coordinating with pugs can be tricky. Sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't. Even in the best games there is usually a few guys who don't. By doing a mass RTB, you will inevitably leave them behind and they may very well get slaughtered in the frequent push that follows a base cap. "good, they deserve it" you might say and maybe youre right. But justice wont win me the game.you can't win on smug self-satisfaction alone.

Edited by Jman5, 10 April 2013 - 04:15 PM.

[Davers]

Jman5, on 10 April 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

you can't win on smug self-satisfaction alone.

But you can try.

[FerretGR]

In reality, there's no single right answer. I've been the light who RTB'd and found, when I arrived, I was expected to stop 4 3Ls from capping on my own. I've found that strategic withdrawal of the entire team is the only thing that can stop the cap in this case. That said, there are plenty of situations where 1 light or 1 light and 1 fast medium were more than enough to stop the cap, and the other team gets spanked for splitting up.

The base cap is often an attempt to draw off defenders from the front line in many cases. If you split the team, you're playing into the enemy's hands. The safest bet, ihmo, is a strategic withdrawal with the lights arriving first to hold the fort until such time that the rest of the team can get there and back them. If it works, you're the one splitting the enemy team and hopefully they're the ones getting spanked.

Every situation is different, and that's the bottom line: you have to be malleable and do what it takes to win. Sometimes that's sending lights back while you hold the line, sometimes it's everyone moving back and fighting as a unit. No right answer, no wrong answer.

Edited by FerretGR, 10 April 2013 - 04:23 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

@pook

Or the initiative. Once you are forced to become reactionary, you have likely already lost. The team that dictates where and when they fight, will almost always be victorious. The common tactic is to send one or two fast mechs to cap, specifically because it leave the opposing force in disarray. Sending back 1 or 2 light units is al.ost always the correct answer, as 9 out of 10 times the enemy scout retreats the moment contact is made. If a heavier enemy presence is already there (common on frozen city and river city), you will probably already be capped before your heavy elements return, and your lighter elements destroyed by mass fire.

Always better to actually send your lights out as screens on the far flanks to begin with to intercept such attacks before they occur.

[Deathlike]

Assaults in many instances should "back up" instead of "turning around".. being the slow anchor of making sure the enemy doesn't overrun you for the RTB action. The assault should always be facing the "last known location" of the enemy... if there isn't a threat, then it's usually OK to turn around.

[Noobzorz]

FerretGR, on 10 April 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

In reality, there's no single right answer. I've been the light who RTB'd and found, when I arrived, I was expected to stop 4 3Ls from capping on my own. I've found that strategic withdrawal of the entire team is the only thing that can stop the cap in this case. That said, there are plenty of situations where 1 light or 1 light and 1 fast medium were more than enough to stop the cap, and the other team gets spanked for splitting up.

The bottom line, though, is that the base cap is an attempt to draw off defenders from the front line in many cases. If you split the team, you're playing into the enemy's hands. The safest bet is a strategic withdrawal with the lights arriving first to hold the fort until such time that the rest of the team can get there and back them. If it works, you're the one splitting the enemy team and hopefully they're the ones getting spanked.

Every situation is different, and that's the bottom line: you have to be malleable and do what it takes to win. Sometimes that's sending lights back while you hold the line, sometimes it's everyone moving back and fighting as a unit. No right answer, no wrong answer.

The right answer is always "see who is coming before they get there."

Otherwise you're dead right. It's a gamble.

[MonkeyCheese]

Dont play assault, conquest actually ends more often from one team dying and less actual cap wins.

If you want good fights play conquest.

[TheMadPoet]

It's generally to keep the entire team from running off to chase a light, while the rest of the enemy team closes and focus fires them down one at a time. I see this happen often in Frozen City. A light or two runs the tunnel. begins capping our base, and everyone runs back to get them, and the other team times it perfect (probably on TS, or getting the GO in team chat) and crest the hill and start the slaughter.

I much prefer to hear "Lights return to base, the rest hold the line", than to watch my entire team run off in a time consuming chase of one or two mechs.

[hammerreborn]

So this argument didn't need 1 but 2 threads now?

And then you post the other thread that says games without lights are more fun.

Wow you assaults will ***** about anything. And you wonder why we don't listen

[FerretGR]

Noobzorz, on 10 April 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

The right answer is always "see who is coming before they get there."

Otherwise you're dead right. It's a gamble.

Indeed. You don't wanna get capped on Frozen City? Scout the ******* tunnel. The issue, in the end, is one of not having enough information on the enemy's movement. Whose fault is that?

Scouts won't cap your base if you're watching for it.

[jeffsw6]

It's not light mechs that "ruin" those Assault drops. It's the stupid implementation.

Imagine if there was no bonus for having more than 1 mech standing in an opponent base until 3 or 4 minutes into the game. Now it doesn't matter if you rush your entire team to an enemy base, because you'll then have to defend that position for quite some time.

Imagine if there was only one base and it occupied the middle of the map.

There are numerous ways to "fix" the assault mode. Removing the base capture mechanic entirely is not one of them. Why? Because then people will hide, power down, and grief until the time runs out.

What must be done is adjusting the base capture mechanism so it promotes actual combat.

[K0M3D14N]

Okay, buddy, look. This is how things work. When I tell you big boys to "hold the line," I am usually doing so out of recognition of the fact that a tactical withdrawal is exactly what the enemy wants. I will go back personally and see what the situation is, thus fulfilling my role as both a Light pilot, a scout, and a striker. Once contact has been made with the enemy capturing our base, I will then relay further instruction about the situation and how to move forward. That is what I'm supposed to do.

That is my jerb.

All-too-often, I see entire teams turn tail and abandon their forward position to high-tail it back to base at the first sign of a possible cap. The end result is usually a hard push by the enemy into the flank in the ensuing disarray and the complete and utter devastation of both lances as a result. That is what I am trying to prevent. That is the job of the scout. If there is need for you to bring additional firepower to bear on the situation, I will let you know that. Again, that is my job.

[Blackadder]

K0M3D14N, on 10 April 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

Okay, buddy, look. This is how things work. When I tell you big boys to "hold the line," I am usually doing so out of recognition of the fact that a tactical withdrawal is exactly what the enemy wants. I will go back personally and see what the situation is, thus fulfilling my role as both a Light pilot, a scout, and a striker. Once contact has been made with the enemy capturing our base, I will then relay further instruction about the situation and how to move forward. That is what I'm supposed to do.

That is my jerb.

All-too-often, I see entire teams turn tail and abandon their forward position to high-tail it back to base at the first sign of a possible cap. The end result is usually a hard push by the enemy into the flank in the ensuing disarray and the complete and utter devastation of both lances as a result. That is what I am trying to prevent. That is the job of the scout. If there is need for you to bring additional firepower to bear on the situation, I will let you know that. Again, that is my job.

Basic problem with the level of play in public matches. Makes me want to smash my monitor many times, because half the time i am the heavy trying to keep the assault alive, as i watch 4 70+ ton mechs try to chase down that raven or jenner or cicada, while the opposing team starts sniping them from long range or just pushes in behind them and rolls up the easy targets who cant defend themselves.

[Bishop Steiner]

@ferret

Dang Skippy. At the very least post a spy that can SEE the tunnel entrance, and some one who can react to Jenner highway. You can actually do both within view of the bulk of your force at the spine of the drop ship. Good Intel pets you see them coming and gave a surprise waiting. Poor dumb centy didn't realize he'd been spied, popped out the tunnel and caught about 4 gauss and dozen ppcs for his trouble, lol.

[Jonathan Paine]

Agreeing with the Ferret here. Whether RTB'ing should be done by one or two fast mechs, the entire team, or none at all depends on circumstances. Frozen city, your team didn't even make it half way to the ridge before someone started capping? Great situation to return as a group and get one or more "free" kills. Same map, but you are engaging the enemy at the ridge, around the dropship... why return at all? Unless you have more losses than the enemy, this might be the moment to press ahead. They definitely don't have all their mechs in the fight.

Communication and scouting is key. That is why I do neither

[FerretGR]

Jonathan Paine, on 10 April 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

Communication and scouting is key. That is why I do neither

TELL ME ABOUT IT!

Edited by FerretGR, 10 April 2013 - 05:56 PM.

[Stoicblitzer]

Davers, on 10 April 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

It's true on larger maps like Alpine and TD where the engagement starts at long range. But this is a holdover from Frozen City and smaller maps where the enemy was usually much closer, even if out of sight. Turning your back at the wrong time would lead to your entire team being gunned down from behind.

[Kill Dozer]

Blackadder, on 10 April 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

regardless of map as soon as smart opposing players see you withdrawing they will advance. Given that mechs all have varying speeds, its quite easy to pick off the slow mechs that are trying to RTB. Additionally, in most cases slower mechs will never get to the base in time. If your in a light and not wiling to RTB when stealth cappers are around, your not filling your role as a light mech.

Additionally, slow mechs trying to RTB will have to leave any cover they may have, exposing their backs to the advancing enemy force. It's actually a tactic for lights, step on the base to draw heavier slower mechs out of the defensive line. The defenders that remain get steamrolled and the rest get picked off one at a time.

Edited by Kill Dozer, 10 April 2013 - 06:33 PM.

[Mister Haha]

One Medic Army, on 10 April 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

RTB with a 48kph atlas is pretty irrelevant.
Regardless of the map, the atlas is best served by finding a good defensive position and holding there.

Now, since your team's assaults are staying put, it's also a good idea for everyone who's not in the immediate response force chasing the lights off to also stay with them so the enemy team doesn't get easy kills on them and win the match right there.

A thousand times this. Nothing worse than being left to die by your entire team because a commando stepped on your base for 10 seconds.