71 replies to this topic

[NRP]

I've said this before, but I get the feeling those crying about how PPCs need to be nerfed have never tried to run a PPC boat themselves. Rather, they get killed by a 4-6 PPC alpha strike, nerd rage ensues, then they come to the forums to QQ. Unfortunately, these people are only seeing one side of the issue.

So I propose this: Build a PPC boat of your own and go run it for a while, then come back and tell us how effective it was. Give it an honest effort, then we can have a productive discussion about what needs to be done.

[Ngamok]

Willie Sauerland, on 11 April 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

A longer recharge,

gives the 6PPC stalker

more time to cool down

making it less likely

to be the victim

of overheating.

Is that what you are

trying to accomplish?

Re-read what I wrote. I said on mechs that put 4-6 of them, heat is again an issue at 3s. On mechs that can only mount 2, heat is an issue at 3s. But if the recharge was 4s, the mechs that can only mount 1, it's not a big issue if the recharge was 3s vs. 4s. And mechs that are generally poptarts go by the 4s recharge because of the guass rifle and jump time.

[Willie Sauerland]

Ngamok, on 11 April 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Re-read what I wrote. I said on mechs that put 4-6 of them, heat is again an issue at 3s. On mechs that can only mount 2, heat is an issue at 3s. But if the recharge was 4s, the mechs that can only mount 1, it's not a big issue if the recharge was 3s vs. 4s. And mechs that are generally poptarts go by the 4s recharge because of the guass rifle and jump time.

Yes.

But if the recharge is 4 seconds,

that is 4 seconds of time

before a 6 PPC stalker

can fire another alpha.

So, you have just increased

the stalker's ability to dissipate

more heat than it could have

in 3 seconds.

In other words,

you can't change things

without looking at the bigger picture.

[MustrumRidcully]

Why I am not opposed to the idea entirely, you might be overrating the value of DPS in the current metagame.

WIth alpha strike focused builds, the damage you can deal within 5 to maybe 10 seconds is critical, and fire rate changes would have be massive to change this.

Currently, in 5 seconds, a PPC can be fired twice. A 6 PPC mech will probably overheat on the second salvo.
(Why twice - we start counting when the first shot is given - no point counting earlier, especially if these are mechs that are build as long-range sniper builds - they are bound to shoot first. So you shoot at 0 seconds and then 3 seconds). In 10 seconds, it could fire 4 times, except a 4 to 6 PPC mech would probably overheat on the 2nd to 3rd shot anyway.

So changing the ROF does very little to stop what people are up in arms about - boating PPCs for massive alpha strike damage. It just makes the weapon less interesting for people that were going for DPS builds. (Not that I'd advise that in the current metagame. WIth the giant heat capacity we have and the low dissipation we can achieve, you get better and more useful damage output by dealing your damage rapidly. Remember, you only need to deal enough damage to kill an enemy, damage you sustain beyond that is superflous. You can achieve this with alpha strike builds currently, and so that'S what you get.)

Sug, on 11 April 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Correct me if i'm wrong (need I ask?) but i'm pretty sure that ppcs DID have a longer cooldown, like 2 months ago.

No one was using them so the dev's decreased the cd time.

Much, much longer ago. Sometime during the Closed Beta, ballistics and PPCs got significant cooldown changes.

[StonedVet]

... searching for the cheese to go with your whine ...

[Shadowsword8]

El Bandito, on 11 April 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

2. PPCs cause more heat--Regular PPCs has almost the same damage to heat ratio as LLasers. ERPPC causes substantially more heat but it has much further range to engage the enemy thus have more time to cool off.

3. Regular PPC has dead zone of 90 meters--Oh cmon now. No one worries about that. If people truly worried, they wouldn't have stacked PPC like it is the new fad.

4. PPCs have more weight and are bulkier than LLasers--unfortunately, that is not a valid excuse as there are plenty of mechs such as K2, 3D, Awesomes, Stalkers, Atlas-RS can stack PPCs and dish out major damage in short amount of time.

I won't quote the rest to keep it readable.

2/Worthless argument. ERPPC heat shouldn't really count as a drawback because it has more range? You must be playing some weird game where everyone start on a flat surface and cover doesn't exist. Here's a clue: many PPC snipers deliberately choose PPC over ERPPC, just because of the heat. Few really care about the range, because effective sniping require you to be able to hit the same spot, and doing so reliably happen well within effective range of standard PPC.

3/ I lost count of the number of pure PPC boats I killed by getting close. Many pilots also carry secondary weaponry they can use in close. Again, your point can be resumed by "I decided that no one care about it, so it must be the truth".

4/ That weight and added crit slots are paid in the form of less heat sinks and/or smaller engine. If you think it is not a signifiant drawback, I'd say you're a noob with little experience of actually using a PPC boat.


Fact: Large Lasers are used much more often than PPC. It wouldn't be the case if things were as you describe them.


Another fact: Your argumentation is at a level that would be expected of a teen. Arguments that go against simple logic, ignore facts, and aren't backed by any data. You need to get much better at this if you want others to take you seriously...

Edited by Shadowsword8, 11 April 2013 - 01:39 PM.

[keith]

MW 4 also had this wonderful balance point called heat spread. it was the time it too for a wep to generate its full heat. MWO does not have that. or if it does there is so little difference doesn't matter. u could make laser have a short heat spread to generate heat in a litter time. have PPC make the heat over a longer period of time. or make the bigger energy make the heat over a longer time, smaller weps over a shorter time. many different ways i could think of:D could help with so called boating problem if a boat knew only half there heat was built up, and if they poped and fired again they would have double heat build up.

[Xmith]

VOHRIMENKO, on 11 April 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Lets nerf everything and fight with wooden sticks.

They're going to want the wooden stick nerfed eventually.

[Yetibus]

My Stalker

has 4 PPCs

one MLAS

two SSRMs.

I call him

UltraPeePee.

its KDA

is twice that

of any other

I play

(5.2)

I love

My PeePees...

but damn

they are stronk.

Might need

slight adjustments.

Four is enough

six is

too much.

Still

it can't handle

a blitz,

but

you can't

count on

your team

in a

pub match

so everyone

pokes

and UltraPeePee

wins.

[Edwyndham]

Willie Sauerland, on 11 April 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Some things

work better for some

than others.

My 6PPC stalker

is 4 PPC

and 2 ERPPC.

I run 4 different

weapon groups

just for 6 weapons.

But I'm sure

I'm just

over-complicating

things...

And how many DHS do you manage to fit with that?

[Willie Sauerland]

zwanglos, on 11 April 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

And how many DHS do you manage to fit with that?

I don't know because

I haven't logged in to look,

but I think I have 16 total.

I think I have a cooling

of 0.88 or so...

[Lege]

Just make every weapon do .01 damage and we can fight all day.

[Willie Sauerland]

Lege, on 11 April 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

Just make every weapon do .01 damage and we can fight all day.

Don't start

the Machine Gun

thing in here please.

[jay35]

I run PPCs/ERPPCs on one (1) out of my 37 mechs. It's a Cat3D with jumpjets. And I never bother to play it. Almost without exception, I find lasers to be a better choice due to heat, weight, slots, range, etc on all my other builds. Then again, I don't own a Stalker and I find the Catapults I have simply do not play to my style, so I may just happen to not own the one chassis that really excels with PPCs and I don't bother with the other one that sort of does. But honestly, I don't see how they're somehow OP or why they've caused at least two OMG NERF PPCs threads today out of the blue.

Edited by jay35, 11 April 2013 - 04:42 PM.

[Willie Sauerland]

jay35, on 11 April 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

I run PPCs/ERPPCs on one (1) out of my 37 mechs. It's a Cat3D with jumpjets. And I never bother to play it. Almost without exception, I find lasers to be a better choice due to heat, weight, slots, range, etc on all my other builds. Then again, I don't own a Stalker and I find the Catapults I have simply do not play to my style, so I may just happen to not own the one chassis that really excels with PPCs and I don't bother with the other one that sort of does. But honestly, I don't see how they're somehow OP or why they've caused at least two OMG NERF PPCs threads today out of the blue.

Dude!

Pay attention!

Because,

like,

somebody got killed

by a team of players

where

like,

more than 1 PPC

was used.

As such,

they are

like,

obviously

way over-powered.

DUH!

[Monaco335]

I regularly run my hexa stalker with 4 ppc's and 2 erppc's. Although I only usually shoot 2 at a time or only the ppcs or only the ERPPC's at a time, when there is a clear shot.. alpha, consumables, alpha, alpha - shut down, power up, alpha, shut down right away to avoid blowing up. That's 240 concentrated dmg and guaranteed kill if aim is good.

Cheese? yes fun? yes. I'm going to go play my stalker now.

[Willie Sauerland]

Monaco335, on 11 April 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

I regularly run my hexa stalker with 4 ppc's and 2 erppc's. Although I only usually shoot 2 at a time or only the ppcs or only the ERPPC's at a time, when there is a clear shot.. alpha, consumables, alpha, alpha - shut down, power up, alpha, shut down right away to avoid blowing up. That's 240 concentrated dmg and guaranteed kill if aim is good.

Cheese? yes fun? yes. I'm going to go play my stalker now.

You use consumables?

I do not.

If I manage my heat correctly,

I will never need them.

And if I don't,

I deserve to shutdown

and be vulnerable

to death.

I also am not

the type of coward

to put streaks

on any of my lights...

[Vermaxx]

The PPCs need something to outweigh the massive negatives of heat, weight, and three critslots.

If they fire as slow as a gauss, for ten times the eat, and less damage, people will simply take gauss or large lasers. As it stands now there are serious drawbacks to being a PPC-reliant mech.

I personally think they're about as balanced as anything else is in this game. Not perfect balance, but I think they're doing well on getting to a "perfect IMBALANCE" situation.

[Zomeguy]

Culler, on 11 April 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

Some day PPC stalkers will start taking a single ERPPC so they aren't up poop creek without a paddle when the enemy gets close. It's not like the extra heat is significant considering the massive heat they work with anyway. I don't understand why people are so afraid to mix PPCs and ERPPCs. You want to be able to have the range and flexibility of an ERPPC but there's little point in having many ERPPCs because it's too damn hot.

I've already seen this actually a few times. A Stalker with 1 ERPPC and the rest regular PPC's.

[Shadowsword8]

Willie Sauerland, on 11 April 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

You use consumables?

I do not.

If I manage my heat correctly,

I will never need them.

And if I don't,

I deserve to shutdown

and be vulnerable

to death.

I also am not

the type of coward

to put streaks

on any of my lights...

This formatting was funny for all of 5 minutes, but now it's just eye-tiring. You can keep doing that all you want, by I won't bother to read anymore. Just like, I supspect, many already. If you seek originality, try something that isn't already used by XX forum users.

Edited by Shadowsword8, 11 April 2013 - 08:53 PM.