82 replies to this topic

[MuKen]

90% of the time we get a stealth capper, this is what I see in team chat, regardless of what we are currently up to. This seems like really stupid strategy to me, and I don't understand why everyone does this. If you haven't made contact yet, or if you're just exchanging fire at long range (basically if you're not in a brawl) then EVERYBODY should return to base, unless your close enough to their base to cap it first. It's really annoying because the people who say this are usually the same people who say "stay together and focus fire" right at the start of the match. Why would you then contradict that with your very next teamchat?

The random position on the map you happen to be at has zero value, there's no reason to leave a contingent to hold that position. If you return to base, it's just as good a place as any to fight, and you can take advantage of the fact that the OTHER team just split themselves up, instead of getting split up yourselves. Wipe out the capper(s) and enjoy your numerical advantage for the rest of the fight.

Let's analyze this. There's two possibilities when you get the "base under attack" message:

1) They sent a lot or even all of their team straight to your base - The "lights rtb, everyone else stay" strategy just lost you the match. Congratulations. On the other hand, if everyone returns, the lights can stall the cap long enough for everyone else to get there. If their whole team is there, this is your ONLY chance to win. If it's just half of them, you probably secured the victory yourself when you wipe out that half with your whole team

2) There's only 1 or 2 light cappers - Ok, everybody returned to base and chased them off. You maybe even killed one of them before they got away. Nothing is lost, there is no important value in "holding the line" at whatever random location you happened to be at when you got the message. At worst, you are still even with the other team, at best you have a slight advantage now.

The only reason to not have everyone return is if you will sustain heavy losses from withdrawing (you're in a brawl), or you're close enough to their base to cap it first.

Edited by MuKen, 10 April 2013 - 03:23 PM.

[Davers]

It's true on larger maps like Alpine and TD where the engagement starts at long range. But this is a holdover from Frozen City and smaller maps where the enemy was usually much closer, even if out of sight. Turning your back at the wrong time would lead to your entire team being gunned down from behind.

[MuKen]

Like I said, if you're in a close-range fight, then fine. But the majority of time people say this, it is an extremely long range fight you can easily back out of, or worse yet it's when we aren't even in contact with the enemy yet.

[Blackadder]

regardless of map as soon as smart opposing players see you withdrawing they will advance. Given that mechs all have varying speeds, its quite easy to pick off the slow mechs that are trying to RTB. Additionally, in most cases slower mechs will never get to the base in time. If your in a light and not wiling to RTB when stealth cappers are around, your not filling your role as a light mech.

[Max Power]

I can see where it's not beneficial for slow mechs. Might be too far away to get to in time. Better to stick with the other slow mechs in those cases.

[One Medic Army]

RTB with a 48kph atlas is pretty irrelevant.
Regardless of the map, the atlas is best served by finding a good defensive position and holding there.

Now, since your team's assaults are staying put, it's also a good idea for everyone who's not in the immediate response force chasing the lights off to also stay with them so the enemy team doesn't get easy kills on them and win the match right there.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Davers, on 10 April 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

It's true on larger maps like Alpine and TD where the engagement starts at long range. But this is a holdover from Frozen City and smaller maps where the enemy was usually much closer, even if out of sight. Turning your back at the wrong time would lead to your entire team being gunned down from behind.

Can still be pulled off pretty well if their 'Mechs are fast enough.

At the OP. The early capper is a great way to get people out off a position that would otherwise be in rather difficult position to attack. By splitting off one or two 'Mechs you force them to split off the same or loose. If contact has not been made yet you force them into deciding if that is the lead element of your whole force or just a distraction. Either way it places the team that spits on the defensive and unless they are specialists at defensive engagements that is a very bad place for them to be.

[SecondReversal]

At this time I would like to share with you all something I once heard a wise man say;

Board Control mothertrucker, DO YOU SPEAK IT?!

The reason you don't pull every single fighting robot off the line to deal with one raider in the backfield? Because doing so cedes both the initiative and the choice of battleground to the enemy. That's not good, ladies - That's not good at all. I have seen dozens of matches blown due to the simple fact that people just do not understand how to control sight lines and favorable terrain.

If you want to grow up to be an e-lite Mech Warrior, just give it a thought, hey?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Davers, on 10 April 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

It's true on larger maps like Alpine and TD where the engagement starts at long range. But this is a holdover from Frozen City and smaller maps where the enemy was usually much closer, even if out of sight. Turning your back at the wrong time would lead to your entire team being gunned down from behind.

or ignoring lights, ending with the same result

[Bogus]

One Medic Army, on 10 April 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

RTB with a 48kph atlas is pretty irrelevant.
Regardless of the map, the atlas is best served by finding a good defensive position and holding there.

Now, since your team's assaults are staying put, it's also a good idea for everyone who's not in the immediate response force chasing the lights off to also stay with them so the enemy team doesn't get easy kills on them and win the match right there.

This. I love it when the other team falls for a troll spider and they all go waddling back at full speed, becuase they get spread out and as my team advances we can take them down one by one with the highest-priority targets conveniently being the first in line. Boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom, 8-0.

[Davers]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 10 April 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

or ignoring lights, ending with the same result

"People just don't like to fight light mechs." is the theme of a lot of today's threads.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Davers, on 10 April 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

"People just don't like to fight light mechs." is the theme of a lot of today's threads.

Remember the threads with mechs chasing light mechs and the Benny Hill music in the background that told people they were stupid to engage light mechs?

[ArcDemon]

I think you're assuming everyone can return to base in the same coordinated fashion they reached the front line. And that your status of 'no in contact with the enemy' is somehow a static constant.

First thing is that a real military would never order their men to just turn around a run back the way they came like in MWO. That's not a withdrawal or even a retreat, it's a rout. In a proper withdrawal part of the team would retreat back, maybe 300m, where they would turn around and form a new line. The guys that stayed behind on the old line would then begin their retreat, passing their friends and going back another 300m to setup a line there before the process was repeated again. This prevents the enemy, who could choose to show up at any time (and may have had a spotter on you from the moment you began retreating) from just showing up and shooting your backs.

In MWO there is a further issue, that of speed and communication. If you order everyone back to base you won't get the same semi-unified formation as the initial march. You'll get the mediums way out in front charging for the base, the heavies in the middle and the 50kph assaults abandoned at the rear - only the 'rear' is now the area facing the enemy. If the enemy chooses to bring out their forces they will not only get to shoot you in the backs, they can focus fire on just your assault mechs and defeat them in detail while the rest of your team tries to figure out the situation and move all the way back to defend them.

This is the bigger strategic reason that scouts are used to make fake base captures - they want to pull the enemy team out of position, allowing the bulk of their force to engage and overwhelm an isolated portion of your force, putting them in a superior position to take out the rest of your team with ease. It is done on a smaller scale with a scout or medium mech(s) circling behind the enemies line and attacking heavy and assault mechs from their rear - it's designed to make them turn around and start moving toward the skirmishers, robbing the enemy of their big guns.

If you are really fed up with fast bloodless wins on assault why not just play conquest?

[MuKen]

Re: all of you. Read the OP instead of just imagining the last time you saw these words and thinking "hey, it WAS a good idea to stay that time". I posted about a very specific set of circumstances. If you're not even in contact yet or are firing at long range, you are not going to take heavy damage from withdrawing.

Secondly, at what point did I say you had to turn around and run away like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off? There are many safe ways to rtb. Your slower mechs should still be returning slowly in a safe and coordinated fashion until its confirmed that the base is ok. It doesn't have to be their max speed, but they DO need to be on their way back in case they are needed.

"Ceding ground" costs you nothing, and even thinking in such terms reflects an inflated sense of the value of territory in a game that isn't about territory.

Edited by MuKen, 10 April 2013 - 03:48 PM.

[Davers]

The hardest thing to do is tactical maneuvering. Even in 8 man groups when everyone has VOIP pulling off good flanking and fighting withdraws requires a lot of team work and knowing your team mates. In PUGs it can be hard to get people to move forward at the start of the match sometimes.

With better communication options this can change. Being able to organize into separate lances with separate Commander Orders will help.

[MuKen]

That goes equally for the other team, pulling off a coordinated advance requires as much or better communication than a withdrawl. And the necessity of being on your way back is 10x greater when there is no voip. Because the lights that did rtb aren't going to be able to say into their headset "hey there's like 5 guys here" while trying their hardest to stall and stay alive. In all likelihood they are just fighting for their lives to stall every possible second, and just counting on you to assume that they need help to get there sooner or later.

[p00k]

central to OP's stance is the claim that your initial position held no tactical value. to which i ask, why were you there in the first place?

perhaps you weren't in a valuable position, but in theory you should've been on your way to one if you weren't, right? so pulling back means surrendering a tactically valuable position, or surrendering the chance at taking a tactically valuable position

[MWHawke]

MuKen, on 10 April 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

Re: all of you. Read the OP instead of just imagining the last time you saw these words and thinking "hey, it WAS a good idea to stay that time". I posted about a very specific set of circumstances. If you're not even in contact yet or are firing at long range, you are not going to take heavy damage from withdrawing.

Secondly, at what point did I say you had to turn around and run away like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off? There are many safe ways to rtb. Your slower mechs should still be returning slowly in a safe and coordinated fashion until its confirmed that the base is ok. It doesn't have to be their max speed, but they DO need to be on their way back in case they are needed.

"Ceding ground" costs you nothing, and even thinking in such terms reflects an inflated sense of the value of territory in a game that isn't about territory.

Before you start condemning people on their replies, you should THINK. You may not be in close range combat YET and MAY BE exchanging long range fire. All your Mechs turn their back to head back to base, and the other team pushes forward. What happens? Not all enemy Mechs go at 30 KPH.

Do NOT knock solid strategy by trying to justify and argument based on the phrasing of your words.

[Noobzorz]

Davers, on 10 April 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

It's true on larger maps like Alpine and TD where the engagement starts at long range. But this is a holdover from Frozen City and smaller maps where the enemy was usually much closer, even if out of sight. Turning your back at the wrong time would lead to your entire team being gunned down from behind.

I just came out of a match where a particularly daring trebuchet ran past the entire team and started to cap. Well, the dragons, the catapult and the more conservative assaults were able to head back, as were all the little guys, but they left behind two atlasses. It was trivial to catch up and destroy them, and the trebuchet even got away.

The real thing to do is have a proper scout and not let yourself get snuck past. If it happens, you're stuck guessing if you sent enough back to protect base. As it stands, falling back from the middle ring in tourmaline is a catastrophe more often than not.

MuKen, on 10 April 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

That goes equally for the other team, pulling off a coordinated advance requires as much or better communication than a withdrawl. And the necessity of being on your way back is 10x greater when there is no voip. Because the lights that did rtb aren't going to be able to say into their headset "hey there's like 5 guys here" while trying their hardest to stall and stay alive. In all likelihood they are just fighting for their lives to stall every possible second, and just counting on you to assume that they need help to get there sooner or later.

A coordinated advance requires everyone holding down W until they are moving at max speed and aiming at the unfortunate mechs who were too slow to join everyone in heading back to base. Unless you're RIGHT there (as in river city), and you pack up just by virtue of heading back to base, doing anything but "staying and holding the line" can often mean you lose all of your assaults that aren't an AWS.

Edited by Noobzorz, 10 April 2013 - 04:13 PM.

[jeffsw6]

Davers, on 10 April 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

"People just don't like to fight light mechs." is the theme of a lot of today's threads.

Warlocks are so over-pow...
oh, wrong game.