119 replies to this topic

[Zylo]

One Medic Army, on 11 April 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...43#entry1935843
Go wild.

This doesn't prove the system isn't balancing teams by using lower Elo ranks to balance against higher Elo ranks when no better matches are available. Considering groups are involved in the matches it's not unreasonable to have the system pull in some lower Elo rated players to balance against higher Elo rated players on a team.

Matthew Craig said:

Currently it may be a bit 'sloppy' about how it's filling those buckets but over time it will be tuned to be much more precise.

So it's fair to say right now the accuracy of matching is very bad which can be seen with a new player experiencing matches similar to the OP.

Edited by Zylo, 11 April 2013 - 06:02 PM.

[Davers]

One Medic Army, on 11 April 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

How many times do the devs need to say that isn't how they do Elo balancing for people to get the memo?

Zylo, on 11 April 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

Link to the post then. I want to see this evidence.

Davers, on 10 April 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

The Devs have mentioned starting new players at a super low Elo or something to segregate them from the rest of the community for a while. This is a good idea.

This was the response to my quote.

Prosperity Park, on 10 April 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

Yup. Originally, they introduced everyone in as "neutral/average" and it regularly placed brand-new players alongside those who are the "average" quality of player thus far. I think it'll be very good when they start introducing players at a lower peg.

Don't remember where the Dev quote saying they were doing this is though.

[Vrekgar]

Mack1, on 11 April 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

I started a brand new account this week because I was really wanting to see if the new matchmaking and cadet bonus was going to keep new players...playing. I am sorry to report that my experience was utterly dreadful.

First up let me say that I know I am not the best MWO player but my K/D ratio is very good, I am very experienced and I am certainly classed as a decent player.

So I went with the Awesome trial mech with 3 PPC and a Small Laser, I am used to using 4 x PPC's in one of my stalkers so I am pretty good with this weapon. I was quite amazed to find a elite founder in pretty much my first battle. I was even more suprised to find a 4 man premade on the other team (yes I asked after every battle). Infact one group of 4 players were turning up all the time, two of them were in Hero mechs

So to cut a long story short I played the 25 Cadet bonus matches, got a Stalker 3F after about 18, kitted it out as much as possible with my limited budget and my final stats were:

K/D 13/17
Win/Loss 5/20 Yes I only won 5 games
Premades faced 25/25 That's right guys, every single game was against 4 man premades, sometimes we had some but quite often we never. I also noticed players who were vets, they had been playing for months, their Mechs were all pimped out while I was in a lousy trial mech.

No wonder so many people quit, I found the whole thing very frustrating as I was facing off against good players with good mechs while I was in a little toaster with 3 PPC's, I just got annhilated, I am amazed I even got 13 kills tbh.

I can honestly say that in years and years of gaming MWO is by far the toughest and most brutal introduction to a game for new players that I have ever seen. I would like to invite the Devs to roll a new account and play the first 25 solo and see for themselves.

This game needs a solo queue system asap to stop this premade v pug slaughter.

What we need is to adjust the starter elo value, And revamp the entire trial mech system. Almost universally the trial mechs SUCK. They are terrible. The game completely changes once you get your first real mech, and kit it out with a decent build. Its completely different.

The MAJORITY of players are in groups. Its more that we need to have better systems to support and foster group play than solo play. That is the way this game is meant to be played.

[One Medic Army]

Zylo, on 11 April 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

This doesn't prove the system isn't balancing teams by using lower Elo ranks to balance against higher Elo ranks when no better matches are available.

Quote

It's closest to a target value, so the match maker starts trying to make a match for an Elo of say 1300 and will pull in players to those teams closest to those values

Seems pretty clear to me. They have a value, they pick people close to the value. They don't use a running average across the side.

Zylo, on 11 April 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

So it's fair to say right now the accuracy of matching is very bad which can be seen with a new player experiencing matches similar to the OP.

That Command Chair post was put up in mid-February, shortly after they introduced Elo. Elo gets better over time and they're still tuning it.
As I posted above, they are contemplating changing the starting Elo score for new players so they start against less skilled opponents.

[Teralitha]

Mack1, on 11 April 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

I started a brand new account this week because I was really wanting to see if the new matchmaking and cadet bonus was going to keep new players...playing. I am sorry to report that my experience was utterly dreadful.

First up let me say that I know I am not the best MWO player but my K/D ratio is very good, I am very experienced and I am certainly classed as a decent player.

So I went with the Awesome trial mech with 3 PPC and a Small Laser, I am used to using 4 x PPC's in one of my stalkers so I am pretty good with this weapon. I was quite amazed to find a elite founder in pretty much my first battle. I was even more suprised to find a 4 man premade on the other team (yes I asked after every battle). Infact one group of 4 players were turning up all the time, two of them were in Hero mechs

So to cut a long story short I played the 25 Cadet bonus matches, got a Stalker 3F after about 18, kitted it out as much as possible with my limited budget and my final stats were:

K/D 13/17
Win/Loss 5/20 Yes I only won 5 games
Premades faced 25/25 That's right guys, every single game was against 4 man premades, sometimes we had some but quite often we never. I also noticed players who were vets, they had been playing for months, their Mechs were all pimped out while I was in a lousy trial mech.

No wonder so many people quit, I found the whole thing very frustrating as I was facing off against good players with good mechs while I was in a little toaster with 3 PPC's, I just got annhilated, I am amazed I even got 13 kills tbh.

I can honestly say that in years and years of gaming MWO is by far the toughest and most brutal introduction to a game for new players that I have ever seen. I would like to invite the Devs to roll a new account and play the first 25 solo and see for themselves.

This game needs a solo queue system asap to stop this premade v pug slaughter.

Just imagine how well MWO could be doing if it didnt have such a horrid new user experience.... They really should separate new accounts from the general populace until they have completed a set number of matches. I suggest 100.

What would make even more sense is if they created a vs AI version of the game, and let players choose to play that until they feel ready to take on the real thing. Kinda like how LOL does it. Withm a normal solo pug mode, and a ranked version. LOL is very popular for using this system....

Edited by Teralitha, 11 April 2013 - 06:08 PM.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

Vermaxx, on 11 April 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

"Mystical Community Warfare"®

[TehSBGX]

New players should start with an elo of 100. :/

[Trauglodyte]

One Medic Army, on 11 April 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

I support cadet vs cadet as well.

Or at the very least start new players off at a lower Elo than average, perhaps include a negative Elo modifier for being in a trial mech (at least until all the trials are custom builds like the Dragon).

You can't do cadet vs cadet because there is a finite number of players at the cadet level. At some point, someone new is going to come into the game and want to find a match only to get turned away for too long because there simply aren't enough cadets available. The problem is that the ELO is grouping people of varying ratings to put a match together. The creates a situation where 4 mans can artificially inflate the number on the one end which means it needs to be balanced out on the other.

[Kaspirikay]

I support solo only queues.

[Zylo]

One Medic Army, on 11 April 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

Seems pretty clear to me. They have a value, they pick people close to the value. They don't use a running average across the side.

That Command Chair post was put up in mid-February, shortly after they introduced Elo. Elo gets better over time and they're still tuning it.
As I posted above, they are contemplating changing the starting Elo score for new players so they start against less skilled opponents.

I think that's part of the problem though. With a larger number of players the system could probably produce more accurate matches but it seems to not have enough players to make those perfect matches so it starts pulling in a wider range of players.

I suspect this may be what is happening (using 2x groups of 4 as an example):

A pre-made group of 4 with a high Elo rating clicks launch. At the same time a group of 4 with mid range Elo ratings click launch and 8 lone wolf players with varying Elo ratings from low to mid click launch.

Matchmaker looks at the ratings of these 2 groups and 8 lone-wolves that clicked launch and sees that they aren't a perfect match so it starts expanding the tolerance a bit and eventually finds it can balance the match by placing the 4-man group with the higher Elo ratings on the same team as the lowest rated lone-wolf players which produces an average score similar to the 4-man group with mid range Elo ratings combined with similar Elo rated lone-wolves.

The result in this match might be the 4 lowest rated players being killed very early in the match and the 4 high rated players are unable to overcome this disadvantage. The result is these high rated players coming to the forums complaining about useless teammates and the 4 low rated lone-wolves make posts about the game being unfair to new players.

Edited by Zylo, 11 April 2013 - 06:21 PM.

[Kiiyor]

Eddy Hawkins, on 11 April 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

i am guessing you have never played EvE Online....

[Delas Ting Usee]

BladeSplint, on 11 April 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

its not the mech, its the pilot. Just take the time to hone your skills and make sure your positioning is good relative to your team. Yes the trial mechs suck but they aren't unplayable if your heat management is good.

You my friend, have played too long and sadly have lost perspective.
We all think highly of the game, otherwise we wouldn't bother to post or read these forums.
We all want the game to transcend, to reach the biggest audience possible and not compromise too much.
For MWO to flourish, it needs casual players.
Being a beginner in THIS game, particularly this game, sucks. The OP wrote and shared his experience articulately.
PGI should consider a queue for beginners/cadets - at least for their first 150 games.

[Xmith]

Roland, on 11 April 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Instead of the queue separation we have now, we should have a solo queue and everyone else.

New players could play in the solo queue, and would be far less likely to run up against premade partial teams who stomp them.

Additionally, new players really should start with a lower than average Elo rank, because very few new players to this game are going to be even remotely average.

And they would stil;l get s

Roland, on 11 April 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Instead of the queue separation we have now, we should have a solo queue and everyone else.

New players could play in the solo queue, and would be far less likely to run up against premade partial teams who stomp them.

Additionally, new players really should start with a lower than average Elo rank, because very few new players to this game are going to be even remotely average.

to

Roland, on 11 April 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Instead of the queue separation we have now, we should have a solo queue and everyone else.

New players could play in the solo queue, and would be far less likely to run up against premade partial teams who stomp them.

Additionally, new players really should start with a lower than average Elo rank, because very few new players to this game are going to be even remotely average.

and they will still get stomped

Roland, on 11 April 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Instead of the queue separation we have now, we should have a solo queue and everyone else.

New players could play in the solo queue, and would be far less likely to run up against premade partial teams who stomp them.

Additionally, new players really should start with a lower than average Elo rank, because very few new players to this game are going to be even remotely average.

And they will still get stomped. You seemed to forget about the experien

Roland, on 11 April 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Instead of the queue separation we have now, we should have a solo queue and everyone else.

New players could play in the solo queue, and would be far less likely to run up against premade partial teams who stomp them.

Additionally, new players really should start with a lower than average Elo rank, because very few new players to this game are going to be even remotely average.

They will still get stomped by the experienced solo player. Contrary to most beliefs, solo players can play as a team.

[No7]

This is the problem, yes. Not the lack of 3rd person view.

If a good new user experience had been in place since day 1 of open beta, I am sure they would have had a much higher retention rate.

[Brilig]

I think PGI said something changing ELO so new players start out at the very bottom of ELO instead of in the middle like they do now.

[AlexEss]

Mack1, on 11 April 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

I started a brand new account this week because I was really wanting to see if the new matchmaking and cadet bonus was going to keep new players...playing. I am sorry to report that my experience was utterly dreadful.

First up let me say that I know I am not the best MWO player but my K/D ratio is very good, I am very experienced and I am certainly classed as a decent player.

So I went with the Awesome trial mech with 3 PPC and a Small Laser, I am used to using 4 x PPC's in one of my stalkers so I am pretty good with this weapon. I was quite amazed to find a elite founder in pretty much my first battle. I was even more suprised to find a 4 man premade on the other team (yes I asked after every battle). Infact one group of 4 players were turning up all the time, two of them were in Hero mechs

So to cut a long story short I played the 25 Cadet bonus matches, got a Stalker 3F after about 18, kitted it out as much as possible with my limited budget and my final stats were:

K/D 13/17
Win/Loss 5/20 Yes I only won 5 games

Seems you did allright going by your K/D ratio... winning or loosing in a pug is always up to the roll of the dice.

Now on to the things that i highlight... First and foremost the elit tag (while it might sound awesome) do not actually give you anyt extra skill matrix style.. Sure the player prolly have a bit more familiarity with the maps.. but beyond that it says nothing... average player is average...

Same goes for pre-made groups. A pre-made group of average players will always be average... just with better communications.

This leads in to the third point. The current system drops you in at mid level skill wise and then simply see if you are as good or better/worse and thus your ranking will adjust. So it might take up to 100 matches before your score is stable enough to give fair matches skill wise.. the system can never compensate for lack of teamwork.

So i'd say you went in with the pre.conception that the system was flawed and keept looking for one. A real new player will not do this.

[DegeneratePervert]

Cadet vs Cadet is sorely needed. It would be nice if Cadets could team up with veterans and be thrown to the wolves... ah... I mean, queue up with their friends, but solo wise they need to be with other Cadets.

[Appogee]

I'm an actual new player, of two and a bit weeks.

I've played Mech games for decades, and was immediately familiar with the controls and weapons and so on. While I was of course not as immediately skilled as long time MWO players, and didn't know the maps, I don't believe my skills were significantly lower than an average player. The game isn't all that different at its basic level, vs MWLL or MW3 and 5.

Here is my experience, in my first week of playing...

0. Felt like a usual Mech game, which was great. HUD weapons and movement all immediately familiar. Electronic warfare seemed quite limited, and was surprised to learn I could only get ECM on a few (non-trial) Mechs.

1. Lost one in five games. Quite a few of these were ROFL-stomps where my team had zero kills.

2. Was surprised how hard it seemed to kill enemy Mechs, given my trial Mech (usually a Stalker or CTF) seemed to get cored fairly quickly. After a week, my k/d was disappointingly low, something like 0.5 or 0.6. I wondered why I sucked so bad when I'd been an above-average Mechwarrior in the previous games.

3. Was delighted how quickly I gained experience. It was a double XP weekend, it stacked with my Cadet Bonus.

4. Was surprised to find I'm better in a fast Medium than in an Assault. (I think MWO better balances the classes than any prior game.)

5. Sometimes wondered whether bugs were features. (''Why do I have no cross hairs?'' ''What is the significance of those rainbow colours on my minimap?'' ''How come I can't tell who is a friendly or enemy in this match?'')

In the past week, now that I've bought a Hero Mech (X-5) and upgraded my Catphract, and unlocked basics on both, my k/d is rapidly improving. XP seems to be earning woefully slow compared to the glorious Cadet Bonus + 2XP weekend! In fact, I only just amassed my first 5000 GXP last night.

So, what can the game designers learn from this, in the unlikely event they ever see this post or read this thread...?

1. The ELO system was usually putting me and my teammates up against much better teams. I noticed some of them were clearly collaborating together in packs, sometimes with the same camo markings.

2. Trial Mechs are generally deathtraps. They overheat, they can't hit as hard as an upgraded Mech, they die easier, etc. It makes a BIG difference to how encouraged you feel about progressing in the game. While new players should expect to have to lose at first, casual players could well get turned off by having the odds so stacked against them at first.

3. The Cadet Bonus is a great idea.

4. Official training resources are woefully inadequate. I had to spend hours and hours reading the forums to be able to deduce the nuances of the game to be able to become an ''average'' MWO player. You just don't learn how important getting out of trial mechs, using Endo-Steel and double heat sinks are, how useless ballistic weapons are on a 230 ping (!) etc etc etc from any of the official training resources.

I think a Cadet queue would be a great idea. Also ELO should assume new players aren't very good, because their unupgraded trial mechs will almost certainly ensure any new player is fighting at a significant disadvantage.

Hope this helps.

Edited by Appogee, 11 April 2013 - 11:24 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

I've tried a similar experiment. Started a new account back when the best trial mech available was a Centurion CN9-D. It didn't go well and I was just happy to maintain a positive KDR. Win/Loss though was abysmal.

[Paula Fry]

Pls tell me that you ain't the same Guy that made the exact same Post 4 weeks ago.,..,.In that case i could copy all the answers from the last time.