191 replies to this topic

[Karr285]

I know it has been discussed but I think people freak out immediately when they read it cuz they think it will turn into a skill less brawlfest.

Lets start by saying firing Weapons Individually will still be Pinpoint

however when you shoot more it starts to be less accurate example (numbers subject to balance)

1 weapon - pinpoint

2 weapon - 2 Degree deviation off center

3 weapon - 4 degree deviation off center

4 weapon - 8 degree deviation off center

5+ weapons - 10 degree deviation off center

This effectively reduces the effectiveness of every high damage alpha boat and multi weapon long range snipers without making them useless and also promotes Multi weapon/range load-outs

even smack in your face the weapon damage will be spread out all over your mech, Plus this gives extra benefit to all Missile weapons since they already do damage all over.

and lastly this also helps mechs feel more like mechs and not be cored in 2 seconds by High pinpoint alpha builds and actualy required MORE skill by the players to effectively deal damage

ex. instead of alpha 6 Med lasers shoot 2 wait 2 wait 2 this only gives 2 Degree deviation instead of the 10 degree alpha spread.

To remove the high chainfire possible abuse could also add a time inbetween shots that is needed to reset the deviation, ie 5 quick chained shots would scale from pinpoint all the way to the last one being 10 degrees off.

This approach would also elevate future and current UAC issues, since the second shot would already be 2 degrees off and constant shooting would only rack up the spread deviation.

No more Twin AC20/gauss to 1 location no more 6 large laser Stalkers killing atlas's in 3 shots, Also opens up the possibility of a Targeting computer use - Lowers the deviation or lowers the time needed between pinpoint shots.

Worst case if they implemented this for just 1 week is a rollback just for the sake of testing purposes before the clans show up and the really Silly high damage PINPOINT alpha builds start crippling people in 1 alpha 12 er med lasers anyone?

Edited by Karr285, 11 April 2013 - 10:08 PM.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

nah

[IIIuminaughty]

oh

[Brilig]

Id rather have them all deviate to begin with. The only weapons that should converge are the ones in fully articulated arms.

Brilig, on 29 March 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

My suggestion to "fix" that would be to change the cross hair system around. You can keep things skill based, and avoid pinpoint damage issues from heavy alpha strikes.

For instance here is what the Hunchback 4Ps cross hairs could look like.

That would keep the weapons from being pinpoint, without the random number generator frustration. Each torso based weapon or weapon grouping could have its own cross hair. Nothing too extreme, but enough to spread the damage around. People can keep alpha boats, but they aren't quite as devastating.

[Karr285]

As much as Id like that Nobody would go for all weapons always deviating, IMO this is a generous half way on both sides, and helps reduce the 90% alpha always play-style mechwarrior has turned into.

Edited by Karr285, 11 April 2013 - 10:25 PM.

[HereticalPsycho]

So at 500metres a 5 weapon full alpha would deviate 10 degrees? At 500 metres how big is that deviation? don't need any complex maths a simple likely to land most shots somewhere on the mech or unlikely to land most shots on the mech will do... also is that 10 degrees from centre being could go 10 degrees in any direction or could go 5 degree in any direction making the total spread 10 degrees?

Edited by HereticalPsycho, 11 April 2013 - 10:25 PM.

[Karr285]

The numbers were just arbitrary, If the cone is too ridiculous I would hope it was smaller, was just trying to give an example and yes 10 degree in any direction, which would probably be laughable at that point but again just random numbers to get the concept across

Edited by Karr285, 11 April 2013 - 10:37 PM.

[TeaJunky]

you do realise that at any good distance 2 degrees wouldn't even hit the target. take the medium laser max range at even 2 derees it would deviate ~9m calculation: 270m sin(2 degrees) = 9.4m
at 10 dgree deviation 270m sin(10 degrees)= 46.9m
if I assume an Atlus is 8 meters wide even at 50 meters away you would miss with all the weapons 50m sin(10 degrees) = 8.6m

Edit: the deviation surgested even at frations of a degree, would make it so that you would neve want to fire more then one weapon at a time making some boated weapons like ac2 useless. I think this idea would never be implimented well.

Edited by TeaJunky, 11 April 2013 - 10:43 PM.

[HereticalPsycho]

Karr285, on 11 April 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

The numbers were just arbitrary, If the cone is too ridiculous I would hope it was smaller, was just trying to give an example and yes 10 degree in any direction, which would probably be laughable at that point but again just random numbers to get the concept across

yeah fair enough, was curious to the spread because while its a nice concept Im not sure it should cause you to miss just spread the damage around

[Malora Sidewinder]

alpha builds have weaknesses just like any other mechs. it requires pilot skill to overcome, not nerfing to suit your lack thereof.

[Shadowsword8]

Karr285, on 11 April 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

I know it has been discussed but I think people freak out immediately when they read it cuz they think it will turn into a skill less brawlfest.

Lets start by saying firing Weapons Individually will still be Pinpoint

however when you shoot more it starts to be less accurate example (numbers subject to balance)

1 weapon - pinpoint

2 weapon - 2 Degree deviation off center

3 weapon - 4 degree deviation off center

4 weapon - 8 degree deviation off center

5+ weapons - 10 degree deviation off center

Even just 2° is huge at 300m, it can make a difference between a shot center of mass and a complete miss.

Your numbers are flat out broken. It would also make it useless for snipers to have more than 2 weapons, total, on their mech. Might as well annouce clearly that you want every long-range fight to be done with LRM.

But more than that, you still have to prove that high alpha is a problem in the first place.

Quote

No more Twin AC20/gauss to 1 location no more 6 large laser Stalkers killing atlas's in 3 shots, Also opens up the possibility of a Targeting computer use - Lowers the deviation or lowers the time needed between pinpoint shots.

Worst case if they implemented this for just 1 week is a rollback just for the sake of testing purposes before the clans show up and the really Silly high damage PINPOINT alpha builds start crippling people in 1 alpha 12 er med lasers anyone?

If you get killed by a twin AC20/gauss heavy, it's pilot is more competent than you are. He aim better, or he just succeeded getting close to you without you noticing.

If an Atlas get killed by a hexa stalker, The atlas pilot is also less skilled than the stalker pilot. Rotating torso between salvoes isn't that complicated. But half the Atlas pilots I see are acting like they're invincible, until they suddenly wake up and realise they're one salvo away from death. Actually, when driving an Atlas, you should fear the Stalker with 4 or 5 large lasers more than the one with 6, because their additionnal heatsinks and lack of XL drive means you'll receive more damage before they go down.

And lol at the 12 ER ML reference. Are you really scared by it? Barely more alpha damage than 6 LL, and much worse heat generation. Free kill for any skilled heavy or assault pilot.

Edited by Shadowsword8, 11 April 2013 - 10:52 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

I usually fix them with a Dual AC20 blast to the face when they overheat.

[Terror Teddy]

A heatscale system that gives us multiple issues with our mechs as the heat increases would curb excessive
alphas but still be used in a pinch and not target only those with large weapon groups but simply players with poor fire discipline and poor heat management.

Punishing players simply because they use multiple weapons in a group is not the right way to go.

[Karr285]

Yup completly ignore the part where the numbers are only there to show the concept.

and 12 Clan er mediums are 84 damage so I have no idea how that is barley more damage than a 6 LL stalker (54)

[Karr285]

TeaJunky, on 11 April 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

you do realise that at any good distance 2 degrees wouldn't even hit the target. take the medium laser max range at even 2 derees it would deviate ~9m calculation: 270m sin(2 degrees) = 9.4m
at 10 dgree deviation 270m sin(10 degrees)= 46.9m
if I assume an Atlus is 8 meters wide even at 50 meters away you would miss with all the weapons 50m sin(10 degrees) = 8.6m

Edit: the deviation surgested even at frations of a degree, would make it so that you would neve want to fire more then one weapon at a time making some boated weapons like ac2 useless. I think this idea would never be implimented well.

and now im going to laugh at you for using Sin to calculate this because well for Sin to work you need the Hypotenuse (which is longer than the straight line)

but again the numbers were for DEMONSTRATION purposes of how the system would work

Edited by Karr285, 11 April 2013 - 10:59 PM.

[Tenzek]

Karr285, on 11 April 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

The numbers were just arbitrary, If the cone is too ridiculous I would hope it was smaller, was just trying to give an example and yes 10 degree in any direction, which would probably be laughable at that point but again just random numbers to get the concept across

That would be a bit extreme. You couldn't even be sure you'd hit an atlas with a PPC at all if you fired it at its minimum range with 10 whole degrees of deviation in any direction. It would be a problem at 20 m, let alone 90.

Before pilot skills, that's one quarter of the torso turning range of an atlas. Imagine how hard it would be to hit something unless it was in your face.

[Karr285]

Tenzek, on 11 April 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

That would be a bit extreme. You couldn't even be sure you'd hit an atlas with a PPC at all if you fired it at its minimum range with 10 whole degrees of deviation in any direction. It would be a problem at 20 m, let alone 90.

Before pilot skills, that's one quarter of the torso turning range of an atlas. Imagine how hard it would be to hit something unless it was in your face.

Are you guys seriously hung up on this numbers crap? I made them up, pulled them out of thin air, I dont care if they used .1 degree .2 degree etc, it was just a number to show the system please read the post before crying that 10 degrees is too much

and firing 1 weapon would be Pinpoint anyway so i know you didnt read the post

Edited by Karr285, 11 April 2013 - 11:03 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

Even if more appropriate numbers are used the concept of weapons suddenly behaving inconsistently because of the number fired would be infuriating to play with.

I keep seeing solutions proposed to a non-problem. You have the same level of precision with your own fire. Aren't you just as capable as the enemy you're fighting?

[Karr285]

So instead of just Alpha Alpha Alpha you would actually have to manage weapons groups yes I bet that would be very hard to play

And the point isnt about having the same percision, its the absolute ridiculousness of builds, yes there are energy boats but it is very silly when you look a the scope of the problem as the player gets more skilled, EI
3 players 6 LL stalker build 162 damage alpha that can be delivered Pinpoint especially with a team on Coms.

there are very very few mechs that can deal with this, and it is only going to get worse when clan tech sits on our face and makes everybody cry. 2 Nova Cats (blackhawks) dealing 164 damage per volley combined on a 50 ton JJ mech is ludicrous.

PGI doubled Armour in the 1st place because of this pinpiont damage BS and when clan stuff comes they will have to triple it cuz even the clan mechs wont last 5 seconds.

Edited by Karr285, 11 April 2013 - 11:11 PM.

[Tenzek]

Karr285, on 11 April 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

and now im going to laugh at you for using Sin to calculate this because well for Sin to work you need the Hypotenuse (which is longer than the straight line)

He's using the formula to calculate the length of a chord. The triangle is from the center point of the circle, to one point of intersection between the chord and the circle, to the middle point of the chord.

He's just fudging the numbers slightly to assume the mech is also at the edge of the circle, because at that range the chord is close to being a tangent line but not quite.

It's not 100% on but it's within a negligible error for the purpose of this discussion.

(Edit: actually looking back it seems his equation is off, but in favor of making the aim tighter than it should be. It should be radius times 2, and it seems he's just using the radius. )

Edited by Tenzek, 11 April 2013 - 11:12 PM.