38 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

The question of this poll is simple - do you like the current critical hit system?
The question of the topic is - do you like the current critical hit system. If so, why? If not, why not?

If you are not sure what the critical hit system in Mechwarrior Online entails, how the mechanics work and so on, there are is a helpful guide here by a fellow poster: http://mwomercs.com/...-a-brief-guide/

If you don't want to read the details, here's an attempt to explain it briefly:

Spoiler

Every time you deal damage to a mechs hit location that has lost all regular armour, you inflict damage to the internal structure at that hit location, and this generates a chance for a critical hit.
If you score a critical hit, the damage you dealt is also applied to one of the items stored in that hit location. The item is determined randomly, and the chance for an item to be hit depends on how many crit slots its occupied from all the occupied crit slots in the hit location. Endo-Steel and FF do count as empty slots for these purposes.
Most items have 10 hit points, ECM and Gauss Rifle have 3 hit points, the AC/20 has 18, and the Engine has 15 (note however that an engine cannot be destroyed this way). If a Gauss Rifle is destroyed, there is a 90 % chance for it to explode, if an ammo bin is destroyed, there is a 10 % chance for it to explode.

Note that "crit-seeking" weapons have an increased chance to inflict a crit, and the damage to items is increased - but not the damage to internal structure.

A corollary to the way the crit mechanics operate:

Spoiler

If you deal damage with a weapon like a Laser, your damage comes in many smaller packages or pulses, each pulse dealing a fraction of the total laser damage, and each pulse generating its own chance for a critical hit. Overall this means you get probably more critical hits then with a ballistic, but the damage per crit is much lower. This tends to even out somewhat, but due to the item hit being determined randomly, the more damage packes or pulses that crit, and the lower their damage is, the more you spread that damage aroun between all the items in a location. This makes weapons like lasers and machine guns inherently a bit suboptimal for critical hits, as each item in a hit location will act as a crit buffer. At first, you will probably see no result at all, until suddenly multiple items get destroyed in success as you depleted the hit point of each item.

If there are many items in a hit location, with normal weapons it is likely that you won't destroy more than one item before you destroy the entire location.

So, from your experience with the game mechanics regarding crits and your understanding of them, do you think the crit system we have works good? Or do you think there are flaws?

[MustrumRidcully]

Seems people have an opinion, but don't want to say anything. Well, I'll say something:

I think MW:O could use a critical hit system, but I don't feel the current one is working so well. A fundamental problem of it is - this isn't table top anymore. Hit Locations aren't determined randomly, and this has also consequences for the critical hit system.

In the table top, you could sometimes get a stray hit to a leg or arm and break through its armour - but then never hit it again, so that hit was basically doing you as much good as a miss. Except when you managed to actually get a critical hit - then you at least took out something, and the critical hit was basically a "consolation" prize for spreading your damage around so much.

But in MW:O, if we see a location where we stripped off, you can go for it. You can aim at it with everything you got, and make short work of it. This has the consequence that, yes, you might destroy some items in there before you destroy the location, but you still destroy the location rather quickly. So taking out a few items along the way doesn't really amount to much.

There are more things to it - in the table top, the more attacks a mech made, the better his chances at scoring crits and taking out items. He payed for this by losing his advantage on concentrated damage, but again, at least you got a consolation prize in extra (through-armour even possibly) crits. But in MW:O, the best way to score effective critical his is dealing it wtih single, high damage attacks. An AC/10, PPC, Gauss Rifle or AC/20 will destroy any item it hits on a crit in a clean, single blow. 4 Medium Lasers however will spread their crits and their crit damage across all the hit locations, so they are only good at critting items if there aren't many. If there are many, other items basically act as a "hit point" buffer. IN the end, they still will all go away, but if a you have a build that would, say deal as much (crit) damage with LLs as another build would with PPCs, the PPC would have results much earlier than the LL builds.
Well, some might consider this a good penalty for boating many weapons, but well, crits aren't that crucial in the first place, so it's not a big deal, and then.. It hurts the "crit-seeker" weapons we have in this game the most - LB10 X-AC, Machine Gun and Flamer are all dealing small amounts of damage many times, and will spread their crit damage.

And of course, there is a also a lot of items that should be crittable but aren't. The Engine has hit points, but destroying the engine doesn't actually do anything (though it apepars it might at least kill internally installed heat sinks). Actuators just occupy crit slots right now, they don't do anything. So a lot of "cool" effects we could from critical hits don't even exist. Maybe it is not quite such a big loss, because the fundamental problem remains - that a mech or a hit location actually survives losing its armour for long is so low that most critical hit item losses are often marginal.

[Wintersdark]

The system itself, it's design, is fine. It works well.

The problem is that it's not fully implemented, and this unfinished implementation is what ruins critical seeking weapons. The unfinished aspect, of course, is that the mech's built in components can be crit but don't do anything when destroyed - engines, actuators, etc.

As a result, "crit seeking" and critical hits in general are worthless. So often they are "wasted" hitting indestructible components.

If, say, losing actuators locked your arms in whatever position there were in, and destroying engines destroyed the mech, then crit seekers would be much more worthwhile - you could actually cripple a mech quite quickly. LBX autocannons firing at a damaged mech could really mess it up.

Currently, though, all you can really rely on with crits and crit seekers is with precision fire possibly removing a weapon shortly before it would be destroyed by section destruction anyways. It's a long shot, and if there are no weapons of note in that particular section it's pointless.

If, however, you could destroy engines via crits, a machine gun spider would practically instantly kill an xl using mech with an armor stripped side torso, making those machine guns actually worthwhile as even with "real" weapons it would take a spider a fairly long time to destroy a side torso in a larger mech.

[Deathlike]

I would hazard a guess to say that LBX 10 is "effective" in certain circumstances (like, really close up) than compared to an MG+Flamer. If you can "reasonably" get half the pellets to hit an exposed section, it has a similar effectiveness as an AC10 (or any 10 pt damage maker) w/o actually dealing 10 pts of damage.

Right now, HP for ammo needs to be tweaked a little bit, but it'll take time to figure out what other parts needs HP adjustments.

[MustrumRidcully]

Wintersdark, on 13 April 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

The system itself, it's design, is fine. It works well.

The problem is that it's not fully implemented, and this unfinished implementation is what ruins critical seeking weapons. The unfinished aspect, of course, is that the mech's built in components can be crit but don't do anything when destroyed - engines, actuators, etc.

As a result, "crit seeking" and critical hits in general are worthless. So often they are "wasted" hitting indestructible components.

I agree this is a problem with the current state of the implementation. But I am not sure if Actuators currently even count as targets for crits. Not sure if Selfish's thread contains any details on that. So the "waste" might not be as bad as it seems.

But I still think a fundemantal problem is that you can chew on internal structure rather quickly with most weapons. If it takes you 10 seconds to blow through a mech's internal armour on a hit location, and you destroy an item every 2 seconds along the way, does that really matter?

[neviu]

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Voted Yes to both, but I would love to see the whole thing be expanded to include actuators, engine damage, gyro damage, sensor damage, etc.

Actuator destruction should slow movement (for leg hits) or lock/reduce arm mobility (for arm hits), engine hits should shave off your max speed and spike your heat output, gyro damage should increase received impulse and reduce movement (and eventually make you easier to knock down once collisions and falling are back in), sensor hits should hurt your ability to detect people or to get target details and slow down lock-on times, and so on and so forth.

I'd also like to see a sliding scale of heat penalties, but that's a different issue.

[Wintersdark]

MustrumRidcully, on 13 April 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

I agree this is a problem with the current state of the implementation. But I am not sure if Actuators currently even count as targets for crits. Not sure if Selfish's thread contains any details on that. So the "waste" might not be as bad as it seems.

If they can't be crit that doesn't really help, though. They need to be able to be crit, and to have effects when they are destroyed.

Destroy the engine, cockpit(the crit section, not the head structure) and you destroy the mech. Destroy arm actuators, and the arms lose the ability to move. Destroy a leg actuator, and the mech limps as if it had a destroyed leg.

Quote

But I still think a fundemantal problem is that you can chew on internal structure rather quickly with most weapons. If it takes you 10 seconds to blow through a mech's internal armour on a hit location, and you destroy an item every 2 seconds along the way, does that really matter?

as it is now, not really. Excepting a couple mech's that strongly rely on weapons in a particular location, it just doesn't really matter.

However, I do see mech's come out of engagements with armor stripped and internals damaged frequently. Wouldn't it have some value for this to potentially cripple mech's? Then crit seeking is more useful, because there's worthwhile crits to destroy everywhere, even if there are no major weapons there.

[Artgathan]

The issue I see with the crit system we have is that it's pointless. The usual gap in time we see between a section's armor being stripped off and the section being outright destroyed is so tiny as to be meaningless. There's no point in trying to strip weapons / components off of an enemy mech because it's faster to just kill them and disable everything in one fell swoop.

The only time I ever go after specific components (trying to get a crit) is when I see a mech carrying a gauss rifle in the side torsos (of in the arm if I suspect the mech is using an XL engine). Apart from that I just go for the outright destruction of the sections housing equipment.

It would be nice to see a greater emphasis placed on critical hits, but given the current combat system (and it's relatively fast pace) they're not useful.

[Lightfoot]

Working fine right now. Feels like piloting a giant robot.

Traditionally in MechWarrior lasers and point damage weapons cut through armor fast, and missiles do internal damage faster than armor damage. This is what I see happening. It seems balanced at present.

Let's remember that MechWarrior contains inherent anti-boating perks and this is one. Weapon damage strengths. Basically you cut down armor with lasers and ACs, etc. and use missiles to damage the internals faster (crit-seekers). It's fairly balanced, the lasers and ACs do better damage, the missiles might get you a lucky shot.


My rule, don't fix what works well.

[Jack Lazarus]

Crit system we have now is great. When I'm in something like a COM-3A I always pay attention to which mechs have things like Gauss rifles and then I go poke a hole and make it explode. When reasonable to do so, of course. I'm not going to be suicidally desperate to do so.

If anything we just need more things to crit. If engine/gryo/actuator/etc. criticals were in the game, machineguns would be very dangerous to mechs with exposed internals.

[Selfish]

Crit-seeking is in a bad spot right now because there is nothing that crits can do that pure damage doesn't do better. The Devs have slowly made regular damage more effective at absorbing the roles of critseeking, and the enhanced crit weapons didn't change any of that. Most of the new weapons crit well, but there's still no reason to seek out pure or efficient/consistent crits. There has to be some additions that make crits diverge in application from just damage, they need a way to compete in crits against high burst weapons that also crit well, and players need incentives to seek crits like they have for damage. It's a mechanic primed for a "role" in mechs, but is largely just sitting fallow for the moment.

MustrumRidcully, on 13 April 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

I agree this is a problem with the current state of the implementation. But I am not sure if Actuators currently even count as targets for crits. Not sure if Selfish's thread contains any details on that. So the "waste" might not be as bad as it seems

The actuators and fixed internal components don't currently have HP values or absorb critical hits. The same is true for floating point upgrades like ES or FF.

Engines, however, are able to be crit and have 15 HP. There is no effect, or even notification, when they're destroyed, so they're just free buffer for the moment.

Lightfoot, on 13 April 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Let's remember that MechWarrior contains inherent anti-boating perks and this is one. Weapon damage strengths. Basically you cut down armor with lasers and ACs, etc. and use missiles to damage the internals faster (crit-seekers). It's fairly balanced, the lasers and ACs do better damage, the missiles might get you a lucky shot.

This isn't true. The only 'anti-boating' available is handled through hardpoint availability/crit space, and all weapons do the same kind of damage. There is no bonus to certain weapons vs. external/internal armor. Critical hits also don't apply damage to internal armor. They apply it to items within components.

[Ravenspyre]

Currently abstaining from this because the critical locations that would actually be effected, such as gyros and such, currently aren't being affected. So until it comes to pass I can't say one way or the other until I play and see it happening first.

[Corvus Antaka]

I like the current system.

[DeadlyNerd]

http://www.solaris7.com/

This crit system was also used in MW3, the only iconic MW.

This thread is pointless.

It's the HP system that needs customizing, not the crit system.

[Eddrick]

I like the crit system. But, it is incomplete. Actuators, Engine, Sensors, Life Support, Gyro, and Cockpit need to have critical effects as well. Also, some of the RGN needs to go. Everything that has a Hardpoint (With the exeption of JumpJets) can be clearly seen on the Mech and should be crited when you get a clean hit.

Leg Actuator crits should slow them down. Arm Actuator crits should lock the arm. Engine crits should increase heat and destroy the Mech when damage shreshold is reached. Cockpit crits should kill the pilot. Gyro should atleast make piloting more difficult and knockdown when we get it back. Not sure what Life Support should do. Maybe, lower the Mechs heat shreshold as the pilot is more valnerable to heat.

JumpJets should have a Hardpoint since they are limited on where they can be put anyway and mounting them without being evenly spread just seems like it would cause problems when jumping because of uneven thrust. They are the only thing that can be seen on the Mech that doesn't have a hardpoint.

[Trauglodyte]

Well, as it was already said, the time between clearing off the armor of a section and completely destroying that section is so minor that there is no benefit from actually having crits. If I'm shooting at an Atlas and it has two UAC/5s in that section alone, I have a 1 in 3 chance of hitting internal structure. The benefit of hitting the weapons basically pads the internal structure and that is fine. It is why I don't always toss all of my DHSs in my engine cause I use them as internal damage buffers. That being said, if I throw enough damage at the exposed torso of said Atlas, it doesn't matter whether I crit the UAC/5s or not cause what is holding up that section is now gone. The real question is should we boost internal structure to allow a more thorough crit system, should we allow Through Armor Crits to help, or should we stick with what we have?

[MustrumRidcully]

DeadlyNerd, on 13 April 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

http://www.solaris7.com/

This crit system was also used in MW3, the only iconic MW.

This thread is pointless.

It's the HP system that needs customizing, not the crit system.

The hit point system is a part of the crit system, is it not?

Eddrick, on 13 April 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

I like the crit system. But, it is incomplete. Actuators, Engine, Sensors, Life Support, Gyro, and Cockpit need to have critical effects as well. Also, some of the RGN needs to go. Everything that has a Hardpoint (With the exeption of JumpJets) can be clearly seen on the Mech and hould be crited when you get a clean hit.

Leg Actuator crits should slow them down. Arm Actuator crits should lock the arm. Engine crits should increase heat and destroy the Mech when damage shreshold is reached. Cockpit crits should kill the pilot. Gyro should atleast make piloting more difficult and knockdown when we get it back. Not sure what Life Support should do. Maybe, lower the Mechs heat shreshold as the pilot is more valnerable to heat.

But would the ability to destroy a leg actuator really change something?

It might take 60 damage to get through the leg armour, and another 30 damage to get through the internal. If an actuator has 10 hit points, the leg internal structure is already 1/3rd gone (if not more, because there is no guarantee the leg actuator takes all the damage).

If it took you 15 seconds to get through the leg armour (4 small lasers would do that), it would take you 7.5 seconds to get through the internal armour. In 2.5 seconds, you might have destroyed one actuator, that leaves the enemy 5 seconds to deal with a destroyed actuator, before he has to deal with a destroyed leg.

Does that really make the big difference?
Of the 22.5 seconds it took you to destroy one leg, the enemy spend 5 seconds with a destroyed leg actuator.
And that is an optimistic scenario - if there is more than one item in the leg, it might take you much longer, and in fact the leg might already be gone by the time you destroy an actuator.

I am not saying that destroyable actuators are a bad idea. They are a good idea. I am saying the current crit system and the current damage output and the resilience of items, that it's almost inconsequential. The only real thing of consequence to me seems to be exploding items, because their damage transfers to non-destroyed sections. But basically only the Gauss Rifle has a decent chance to explode...

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 14 April 2013 - 10:36 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

I would say that the crit system is incomplete in the sense that you can bypass the equipment in each section and hit the internal structure. So, if you want to overhaul the system and make combat last longer without boosting internal structure, then that only leaves the possibility of having to clear out each piece of equipment in that location before you can destroy it. Point is, as you said, without more items taking up chances to be destroyed before hitting internal structure, the concept of crit seeking is flawed.

[Khanahar]

There is one major problem with the crit system.

When you crit an ammo bin, the chance of detonation is 10%.
When you destroy a component, the chance of each ammo bin's individual detonation is 10%.

Garth once said that the advantage of the MG is that you crit ammo bins without destroying the component. I thought this was cool.

But it turns out there is no advantage whatsoever to doing so.

DESTROYING AN EXPLOSIVE ITEM WITH CRITICAL HITS SHOULD HAVE A GREATER CHANCE OF DETONATION THAN JUST DESTROYING THE COMPONENT IT'S IN.

Once this is rectified, MGs will actually become useful as a way to pop open 'mechs. As it is, they remain in all ways inferior.