63 replies to this topic

[Carl Wrede]

What people here apparently have forgotten is what could potentially be a very limiting factor for an omnimech, namely its price. Omnimechs cost a huge amount of C-Bills and if they reintroduce R&R costs you will just not be able to afford running an Omnimech in each and every battle.

Even the clans used older non-Omnimechs for their second line units.

[Vassago Rain]

Carl Wrede, on 13 April 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

What people here apparently have forgotten is what could potentially be a very limiting factor for an omnimech, namely its price. Omnimechs cost a huge amount of C-Bills and if they reintroduce R&R costs you will just not be able to afford running an Omnimech in each and every battle.

Even the clans used older non-Omnimechs for their second line units.

Clan money cost isn't like being the private owner of a mech. It's more like the US army. RnR was a terrible idea, and will never return.

[FupDup]

Carl Wrede, on 13 April 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

What people here apparently have forgotten is what could potentially be a very limiting factor for an omnimech, namely its price. Omnimechs cost a huge amount of C-Bills and if they reintroduce R&R costs you will just not be able to afford running an Omnimech in each and every battle unless you're an experienced player and have a halfway decent stash of monies built up, in which case you can steamroll poor noobs forced to use trial mechs to grind cash for their repairs.

Even the clans used older non-Omnimechs for their second line units.

Fixed.

Also, RnR is pretty unlikely to ever come back.

Edited by FupDup, 13 April 2013 - 06:34 PM.

[Ravenspyre]

Carl Wrede, on 13 April 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

What people here apparently have forgotten is what could potentially be a very limiting factor for an omnimech, namely its price. Omnimechs cost a huge amount of C-Bills and if they reintroduce R&R costs you will just not be able to afford running an Omnimech in each and every battle.

Even the clans used older non-Omnimechs for their second line units.

I might agree with you except for some people who've been showing off images of their C-Bill bank account numbering in the hundreds of millions. If the primary version of the Timber Wolf releases, even at it's roughly 25 million C-Bill price tag, by the time it releases, most people will undoubtedly be able to afford it and unless the repair costs get outlandish, probably won't even sweat the repair bills. Unless, PGI plans a complete and total server wipe before launch, but then that opens a brand new can of worms.

[OneManWar]

Marric, on 13 April 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

It is correct that the Omni mechs could trade loadouts and configurations fairly easily. And changing loadouts does not change the Omni to a battlemech. They definitely have advantages. The disadvantage of the clans was not equipment or pilots. The disadvantage was their arrogance. That is why I expect that they will run the clans as AI's and have them bid against the IS forces (that would be us).

No, they will not add AI to the game, I don;t think ever. I believe Paul even said in an interview they'd be crazy not to let people play as the clans. Plus programming AI that would be worthwhile in an online game like this would be INSANELY hard to get right. Its not even an option at this point.

Edited by OneManWar, 13 April 2013 - 07:08 PM.

[Smk]

OneManWar, on 13 April 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

No, they will not add AI to the game, I don;t think ever. I believe Paul even said in an interview they'd be crazy not to let people play as the clans. Plus programming AI that would be worthwhile in an online game like this would be INSANELY hard to get right. Its not even an option at this point.

I'm pretty sure they said they wanted AI controlled tanks and whatnot in the game eventually but yeah, I don't see that happening for more than a year after release which is supposedly this September. By then the game will be completely different anyways and be greatly increased in scale and game types or be dead.

[Ricama]

DeadlyNerd, on 13 April 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

So basically PGI has an open season on the omni-pods, ridiculous and illogical setups etc.

HP system was supposed to be some kind of an omni-pod system but I guess we'll see it sooner or later, sadly not in IS mechs.

Or PGI could treat them the way FASA originally intended: convenient fluff that allows them to put 60+ new mechs in 32 pages with 16 pictures. Omni didn't do anything on the battlefield, it was just a cool thing that purportedly helped in strategic deployment. Now mechwarrior games have previously made a big deal about it and made 'omni' slots when they used a hardpoint system but there is no need or reason for PGI to follow suit.

[Hotthedd]

Another balancing factor for Omnimechs is already in the game: The pilot skill tree. Because Omnimechs do not have variants, it would be impossible to ever unlock the pilot skills on an omnimech past basic x 1. PGI would not even have to change anything.

[Anton Shiningstar]

Carl Wrede, on 13 April 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

What people here apparently have forgotten is what could potentially be a very limiting factor for an omnimech, namely its price. Omnimechs cost a huge amount of C-Bills and if they reintroduce R&R costs you will just not be able to afford running an Omnimech in each and every battle.

Even the clans used older non-Omnimechs for their second line units.

They cost nothing for the Clans. Clans don't use money like we do, so cost isn't/shouldn't be a factor at all to a Clanner.

[Zyllos]

Armor isn't the end-all-be-all. There are several mechs that I play that are fine without max armor.

Hell, both my Jagermech builds have like half the armor a 65t mech is suppose to have and I still seem to get plenty of kills.

[Vassago Rain]

Zyllos, on 14 April 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

Armor isn't the end-all-be-all. There are several mechs that I play that are fine without max armor.

Hell, both my Jagermech builds have like half the armor a 65t mech is suppose to have and I still seem to get plenty of kills.

I can guarantee you didn't skimp on torso armor.

[Alex Warden]

OneManWar, on 13 April 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

No, they will not add AI to the game, I don;t think ever. I believe Paul even said in an interview they'd be crazy not to let people play as the clans. Plus programming AI that would be worthwhile in an online game like this would be INSANELY hard to get right. Its not even an option at this point.

while i know they said such things.... they said alot ofthings, and yes,they are at least working on BASIC ai´s right now for testing grounds (ithink it was stated in an ATD), plus they more or less confirmed AI controlled tanks and infantry...so i wouldn´t exclude the possibility...

and there are several examples of online shooters with AI´s... cryengine3 has ai implemented, only problem is that it´s not for mech combat. the only hindrance is to make a functional AI for the mech warrior setting out of it...

Hotthedd, on 14 April 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

Another balancing factor for Omnimechs is already in the game: The pilot skill tree. Because Omnimechs do not have variants, it would be impossible to ever unlock the pilot skills on an omnimech past basic x 1. PGI would not even have to change anything.

well, true... but not good enough... basics are way enough,elite is just the icing on the cake... (the only must have might be speed tweak,but i can also live w/o it if i have to)

Edited by Alex Warden, 14 April 2013 - 07:07 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Alex Warden, on 14 April 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

while i know they said such things.... they said alot ofthings, and yes,they are at least working on BASIC ai´s right now for testing grounds (ithink it was stated in an ATD), plus they more or less confirmed AI controlled tanks and infantry...so i wouldn´t exclude the possibility...

and there are several examples of online shooters with AI´s... cryengine3 has ai implemented, only problem is that it´s not for mech combat. the only hindrance is to make a functional AI for the mech warrior setting out of it...




well, true... but not good enough... basics are way enough,elite is just the icing on the cake... (the only must have might be speed tweak,but i can also live w/o it if i have to)

Remember, besides the elite skills (and extra module slot for master), basic skills are DOUBLED once 3 variants are elited.

[Ravenspyre]

Zyllos, on 14 April 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

Armor isn't the end-all-be-all. There are several mechs that I play that are fine without max armor.

Hell, both my Jagermech builds have like half the armor a 65t mech is suppose to have and I still seem to get plenty of kills.

I don't get some people's view on armor. The current battlemechs in game, on how I understand it, had their armor values doubled from the TT, it would follow logically that the clan omni-mechs will have the same thing done. The Timber Wolf, for instance, the head would go to 18, the CT would go to 72, CT(rear) would go to 18, RLTs would go to 50, the RLTs(rear) would go to 14, the RLArms would go to 48, and the RLLegs would go to 64. That gives the mech 460 armor not including internals.

And that of course also remains on fact that if the chassis, internals, engine and all other features stay lore compliant and unchangeable for the sake of the omni pods.

Edited by Accalia, 14 April 2013 - 09:32 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Accalia, on 14 April 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

I don't get some people's view on armor. The current battlemechs in game, on how I understand it, had their armor values doubled from the TT, it would follow logically that the clan omni-mechs will have the same thing done. The Timber Wolf, for instance, the head would go to 18, the CT would go to 72, CT(rear) would go to 18, RLTs would go to 50, the RLTs(rear) would go to 14, the RLArms would go to 48, and the RLLegs would go to 64. That gives the mech 460 armor not including internals.

And that of course also remains on fact that if the chassis, internals, engine and all other features stay lore compliant and unchangeable for the sake of the omni pods.

Indeed - especially since (as noted in a previous post by myself) the majority of the 16 initial Clan OmniMechs (12 of the 16, to be exact) are equipped with over 80% of their maximum armor loads, and the majority of those (8 of those 12, or 50% of the original 16 Clan OmniMechs) are carrying 94% or more of their maximum armor loads.

Strum Wealh, on 13 April 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

The Daishi carries 19 tons of Standard Armor (99% of maximum).
The Gladiator carries 13.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (88% of maximum).
The Masakari carries 13.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (98% of maximum).
The Man O' War carries 11 tons of Clan FF Armor (85% of maximum).
The Mad Cat carries 12 tons of Clan FF Armor (100% of maximum).
The Thor carries 9.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (84% of maximum).
The Loki carries 8 tons of Standard Armor (61% of maximum).
The Vulture carries 8.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (81% of maximum).
The Ryoken carries 9.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (98% of maximum).
The Black Hawk carries 10 tons of Standard Armor (95% of maximum).
The Fenris carries 7.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (94% of maximum).
The Dragonfly carries 7 tons of Clan FF Armor (98% of maximum).
The Puma carries 6 tons of Clan FF Armor (97% of maximum).
The Uller carries 4 tons of Clan FF Armor (72% of maximum).
The Koshi carries 3.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (75% of maximum).
The Dasher carries 2 tons of Clan FF Armor (55% of maximum).

Outside of the Loki and the three lightest TRO 3050 OmniMechs, the vast majority of the Clans' initial Invasion OmniMechs are at or very near their maximum armor loads.

This notion/implication of all OmniMechs with stock/locked armor levels necessarily being poorly-armored deathtraps is simply inaccurate - in several cases, any additions that could be made would be insignificant.

[Burnsidhe]

For the Hellbringer, yes, it actually is underarmored. Especially in the torso. 'Paper thin' comes to mind as one description.
The Mad Dog is almost as bad, given that it carries a large amount of ammo.

[Strum Wealh]

Burnsidhe, on 14 April 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

For the Hellbringer, yes, it actually is underarmored. Especially in the torso. 'Paper thin' comes to mind as one description.
The Mad Dog is almost as bad, given that it carries a large amount of ammo.

The Loki also has other issues, like the legs being filled with A-Pods (which weigh 0.5 tons apiece, for 1.0 tons of A-Pod per leg) and the Targeting Computer (where the weight AND number of critical slots actually vary as a function of the total tonnage of direct-fire weaponry mounted on the 'Mech)...

[Zerberus]

Marric, on 13 April 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

It is correct that the Omni mechs could trade loadouts and configurations fairly easily. And changing loadouts does not change the Omni to a battlemech. They definitely have advantages. The disadvantage of the clans was not equipment or pilots. The disadvantage was their arrogance. That is why I expect that they will run the clans as AI's and have them bid against the IS forces (that would be us).

The Devs have already publicly stated the clans WILL be playable by players (I think it was Paul). And to be honest, anything else would be suicide, what with the thousands of players waiting specifically for tthe implementation of the clans to "really" start playing (myself included).

Edited by Zerberus, 14 April 2013 - 01:09 PM.

[Inappropriate1191]

As useful and versatile as omnimechs are, I can't help but think that, at the end of the day, they're overrated. In truth, you kit out most IS mechs with clan-tech, they're just as good. The disadvantages are mostly superficial if IS mechs have clan gear. The real problem is gonna lie in the fact that clan ballistics and missiles are better than IS ballistics and missiles in every single way. While IS energy weapons are inferior in everything, except for heat output, at which case, smart clan players might try to get IS lasers, given how the heat system that PGI came up with seems to have been designed by drug-addicted monkeys that were tripping balls on a cocktail of mescaline, coke, and various kinds of pharmaceuticals that can only be legal in Soviet Canuckistan.

Edited by Inappropriate1191, 14 April 2013 - 02:05 PM.

[Ravenspyre]

Inappropriate1191, on 14 April 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

As useful and versatile as omnimechs are, I can't help but think that, at the end of the day, they're overrated. In truth, you kit out most IS mechs with clan-tech, they're just as good. The disadvantages are mostly superficial if IS mechs have clan gear. The real problem is gonna lie in the fact that clan ballistics and missiles are better than IS ballistics and missiles in every single way. While IS energy weapons are inferior in everything, except for heat output, at which case, smart clan players might try to get IS lasers, given how the heat system that PGI came up with seems to have been designed by drug-addicted monkeys that were tripping balls on a cocktail of mescaline, coke, and various kinds of pharmaceuticals that can only be legal in Soviet Canuckistan.

Your argument is a valid one with a few exceptions; IS rarely gets their hands on clan tech and the tech that IS eventually develops to combat the clan tech is still inferior, lore wise, but I doubt PGI will make that distinction and I doubt they will really limit the omni's to just clans when they first come out.

From the TT stand point, the clan tech is overpowered, but in MWO where they've already got a ton of silly broken stuff as is, the clan tech will probably not be a giant leap or the overpowering stuff that it is currently being regaled as. This of course stems from several factors, including buffed armor, flat damage values instead of random chance, and the simple fact that some mechs have ridiculously easier hit boxes compared to other mechs, removing some of that balked at skill for the amount of easy damage that can be poured on. Compared to the TT, mechs go down incredibly fast in MWO, and the actual armor for the damage delivered doesn't really reflect the actual value in the TT these mechs have.

Point of fact, in the TT a light mech facing down a heavy or an assault would most likely get torn apart, barring the assault doesn't have an unlucky streak and the light doesn't have hot dice, but here in MWO a light is not only more than capable of taking down an assault but very likely to given enough time. Damage variation is also minimal to non-existant in MWO as well, where it tends to spread out in the TT.

In addition to all that the maps are just too small for any realistic engagement, and it's only going to feel smaller once the 12v12 gets implemented. Mechs also fought more than just other mechs, including enemy tanks and fighter planes as well as enemy infantry. Also the easy customization is something that tends to throw monkey wrenches into the spokes of the game as is.

So at the end of it all, clan mechs, as far as MWO is concerned, yea they aren't going to be huge leaps because how MWO plays, the rather large imbalance in weapon versus armor (ie TTK (time to kill)) the simple fact mech hit boxes are not equal, at all, with some having ridiculously easier hit box profiles over others, and just the fact that damage variation does not exist in MWO, the clanmechs are probably not going to be some unstoppable, overpowered force that the BT people are proclaiming them as. It's very likely that most, if they stick to the hardcore rules of the clan mechs and make omni's un-cusomizable most will be inferior to the current MWO set up of battlemechs (which skimps a few details of the lore) with only a couple being on par (such as the Timber Wolf).

Edited by Accalia, 14 April 2013 - 02:23 PM.