378 replies to this topic

[Vassago Rain]

Alienfreak, on 15 April 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

Tim Buckley makes a post.

Actually, I generally have zero regards for scrublords and their threads. It's not a fight worth engaging in. I play my guilty gear, you play your heavily houseruled smash brothers. I'm too old to fight other old men over a subject that's been a part of my life since I was 6 years old.

[Ogresan]

For most people in most things the best way to add skill is to practice.

[Alienfreak]

Vassago Rain, on 15 April 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

Actually, I generally have zero regards for scrublords and their threads. It's not a fight worth engaging in. I play my guilty gear, you play your heavily houseruled smash brothers. I'm too old to fight other old men over a subject that's been a part of my life since I was 6 years old.

Awww... was your argument not valid and now you are going they "you are dumb and like stupid things anyway" route?

[Oderint dum Metuant]

PPC's fire protons/ions and should produce recoil, unlikely to have any bullet drop effect due to the speed at which they would travel.

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You lead your target with lasers?

Slightly, i find that with the latency from across the pond and the beam duration it's required (PPC's don't work quite so well, hopefully tuesday's patch will help), my accuracy with lasers is certainly pointing that im doing that bit right

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Because windage, manufacturing errors in the projectile or booster, your weapon, heat, the current frequency of your weapon will affect your success in shooting at something.

True for ballistic based weapons, again not true for lasers as far as this universe is concerned (although high heat should yeild effects on Hud systems on that part i agree)

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And burst fire = CoD? [/color]
Are you serious?

Burst fire in CoD, allows you more control, my point on that score was weapon systems in CoD by design have burst fire options.
You can't burst fire a laser, or gauss rifle here, so your point was invalid.

Who elses stats are they going to be? Nothing to hide in them at all.

[Vassago Rain]

Alienfreak, on 15 April 2013 - 04:25 AM, said:

Awww... was your argument not valid and now you are going they "you are dumb and like stupid things anyway" route?

When I was 8 years old, a person 11 years older than me said I couldn't do more than X hadokens in a given span of time, because that was spam, and not skill, and since he owned the megadrive, he got to make the rules. So I picked Vega (claw), and poked him and everybody else to death with sitting heavy punches. Then they said you couldn't play Vega, because his normal attacks are broken.

Scrubbing is a disease.

People who advocate that aim is 'broken' in an FPS game are the same kind of people who say a complicated move in a fighter is spam, and not skill. That's why I don't bother posting in threads about it, except for obvious troll points, or to poke you when you say stupid things, like that lasers should suffer cone of fire, because REASONS.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Vassago Rain, on 15 April 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

When I was 8 years old, a person 11 years older than me said I couldn't do more than X hadokens in a given span of time, because that was spam, and not skill, and since he owned the megadrive, he got to make the rules. So I picked Vega (claw), and poked him and everybody else to death with sitting heavy punches. Then they said you couldn't play Vega, because his normal attacks are broken.

Scrubbing is a disease.

People who advocate that aim is 'broken' in an FPS game are the same kind of people who say a complicated move in a fighter is spam, and not skill. That's why I don't bother posting in threads about it, except for obvious troll points, or to poke you when you say stupid things, like that lasers should suffer cone of fire, because REASONS.

And it's not often we agree on anything, but here strangely...i can't fault this.

[Vassago Rain]

DV McKenna, on 15 April 2013 - 04:33 AM, said:

And it's not often we agree on anything, but here strangely...i can't fault this.

Let me further elaborate, because the forums are dead, and the game's unplayable. The scrublord of scrublords, who told me I couldn't use hadokens, might have wanted to see more variety in the game. Maybe that was his intention all along.

But when I showed variety by picking a normally outright terrible character - which I picked because we weren't allowed to use projectiles, so his invincible handstands and half screen pokes become really dangerous - he got mad, and wanted that character gone. He not only showed that he's a bad player, but that he has no understanding of the game, while my 8 year old self easily adapted to the scrub law, which made him scrub harder.

Scrubs gonna scrub, and if you give them no items, then next, it's Fox only, and after that always follows final destination. Scrubs should be confided to their own special snowflake tournaments and servers, where they can't interact with the world, or harm anyone else.

[Alienfreak]

DV McKenna, on 15 April 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

PPC's fire protons/ions and should produce recoil, unlikely to have any bullet drop effect due to the speed at which they would travel.

Anything that has mass will interact with another body that has mass. For example the planet you are standing on.
Though the constant rate of acceleration that is forced upon your projectile the faster it travels the less you will notice the bullet drop.
PPCs in MWO are nowhere near speed of light... they are about 50% faster than most long range ballistic weapons.

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Slightly, i find that with the latency from across the pond and the beam duration it's required (PPC's don't work quite so well, hopefully tuesday's patch will help), my accuracy with lasers is certainly pointing that im doing that bit right

This is only true for your combined pings (you and your target) of above 300.
Leading of instant hit weapons is unnecessary in MWO. If you lead your target and your combined pings are below 300 you will miss. So the risk is a lot higher doing that than not doing it. And if you aim for the "edge" (in the direction he is moving in) of the component you are aiming for you will still have a small buffer for >300ms pings but will also hit that location in <300ms pings.

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True for ballistic based weapons, again not true for lasers as far as this universe is concerned (although high heat should yeild effects on Hud systems on that part i agree)

Untrue.
1. Lasers deflect into wind (it is arguable how much you will notice of that, though )
2. Your weapons are not statically mounted. You can converge multiple weapon openings toward different distances without problems.
This leads to having actuators having to adjust its aim. Everything in this universe is not perfect. Those actuators will not perfectly allign your weapon so fast (not to mention they are doing that at the speed of light in MWO, show me that actuator . But right... IN FAVOUR OF SKILL!). Especially consider that if you are running hot (OH MY GOD HEAT PENALTIES) the accuracy of the hinges (thermal induced elongation/warping) as well as the accuracy actuators will degrade.
3. The lenses of the laser are going to be inaccurate.

Not to mention: Lasers are heavily influenced by atmospheric effects such as smoke and moist.

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Burst fire in CoD, allows you more control, my point on that score was weapon systems in CoD by design have burst fire options.
You can't burst fire a laser, or gauss rifle here, so your point was invalid.

Burst fire is logical consequence of recoil. No matter CoD or real life.

You can fire your lasers after your gauss so they won't get deflected by the gauss' recoil.

Vassago Rain, on 15 April 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

People who advocate that aim is 'broken' in an FPS game are the same kind of people who say a complicated move in a fighter is spam, and not skill. That's why I don't bother posting in threads about it, except for obvious troll points, or to poke you when you say stupid things, like that lasers should suffer cone of fire, because REASONS.

If you would read my posts instead of posting fancy pics or telling us your fancy anecdotes why I am stupid you might actually see it...

[Vassago Rain]

Alienfreak, on 15 April 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

Words.

I think you're lost. You want pic related, not giant robots.

[Nightcrept]

What we need is a for the game to be balanced, have less bugs and more diversity.

The removal of missiles has done exactly what I said it would and removed diversity via breaking balance more then simply reverting to the previous pre-patch system would have done.

Hot-fix back in the missile system from six months ago while working on revamping the missile system all together. That should help fix the ppc erppc madness going on currently.

Fix all the crazy bugs we have been having in the last few weeks.

Break canon and add in some more uniquely mwo systems.
For instance.

1. Fae's
2. Mortars (solid and ppc)
3. Land mines.
4. PPC mech fields
5. Gas fog screen generators
6. Laser ams

etc etc etc.


I am a intel analyst by trade and there are many many logical weapons and devices that are completely missing from the tech trees from a military perspective. And all of them would create more diversity.

[Vassago Rain]

Nightcrept, on 15 April 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

What we need is a for the game to be balanced, have less bugs and more diversity.

The removal of missiles has done exactly what I said it would and removed diversity via breaking balance more then simply reverting to the previous pre-patch system would have done.

Hot-fix back in the missile system from six months ago while working on revamping the missile system all together. That should help fix the ppc erppc madness going on currently.

Fix all the crazy bugs we have been having in the last few weeks.

Break canon and add in some more uniquely mwo systems.
For instance.

1. Fae's
2. Mortars (solid and ppc)
3. Land mines.
4. PPC mech fields
5. Gas fog screen generators
6. Laser ams

etc etc etc.


I am a intel analyst by trade and there are many many logical weapons and devices that are completely missing from the tech trees from a military perspective. And all of them would create more diversity.

These people don't understand that players like me and Mr. 144, and most likely Broceraptos, too, have simply moved on to AC40 builds, while all the mechs that truly need missiles are collecting dust.

Just look at the thread you're posting in. People are actually arguing for adding randomness to the game, because that would in their crazy minds, put more skill in.

[Roland]

I'm not exactly seeing a dearth of DDC Atlases. I think it's kind of silly to suggest that they've been abandoned.

[MustrumRidcully]

Vassago Rain, on 14 April 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

Like the guy above says, adding randomness doesn't add skill. It takes skill away, which is what you want. You can't aim properly, so those who can should be punished.

I do not entirely agree.
1) Randomization can be controlled and accounted for. If you know that the randomizaiton is bad when you're running and low if you're standing, slow down for shooting. Finding out when ti'S better to stand still to get a good shot and when it'S better to keep moving can be a skill.
2) If the effect was not random, but predictable (for example, the crosshair moving up and down while you move), then skill can account for the effect and compensate it. It's just a skill like leading targets with ballistics.

I am not a big fan of pure randomized approach, but I have no problem of a predictable deviation like the crosshair moving up and down while moving.

[KinLuu]

Controlled Luck still remains Luck.

[Albert Cowboy Teuton]

The TT game did have a mechanic that made your movement influence your accuracy. making your movement enlarge the crosshair is not such a bad idea. it remains to determine by how much and how fast it should happen but I'm with you on this one.

[Fut]

DCLXVI, on 14 April 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

it is a little silly being able to walk up a hill, set your crosshair on an enemy across the field, let go of the mouse and just keep pushing numbers and every shot lands exactly the same place lol. But I fear changing it we would only find out how big the gap is between skilled and casual players.

This is the exact reason why something like the OPs suggested should be implemented.
The game becomes silly when somebody cruising at full speed, up a hill, can land shot after shot in the exact same location on their target.

Sure it takes skill to be able to do that, but it's skill in an unrealistic setting. Some things in the environment should affect performance; whether that's speed of movement, the terrain you're stumbling over, or your heat levels.

Adding modifiers would definitely increase the skill needed to play the game. It would no longer be a game of just being able to properly aim at your target, but it'd also require actual piloting skills - you'd have to make the decision on whether to take that shot as soon as you see the enemy, or if you should slow down a bit, and let your heat come down a few % before you take that shot.

Right now a lot of the combat in game is just clicking as much as possible, clicking until you or your enemy is dead. There should be more to it.

[Lostdragon]

I like the idea of expanded crosshairs and I respectfully disagree with those who say it takes skill out of the game. If implemented correctly it would actually make people focus on getting in to a good firing position as much as aiming. If you want pinpoint sniper accuracy you need to find a place where you can stand still fire before the enemy sees you, then take cover and look for another opportunity. This increases the piloting and tactical skill needed to score hits with long range weapons.

To balance this out some and make run and gun builds more usable then maybe create a module that reduces the accuracy penalty (crosshair expansion) when moving by some percent with perhaps 2-3 tiers. That gives lights and other mechs who rely on mobility an option to invest xp and a module slot to offset some or maybe all of the penalty.

I don't think there would have to be much of a penalty to make this mechanic work as I described. If the crosshair and circle increased incrementally based on speed up to 33% larger at top speed or when jumping/falling it would make it much more difficult to snipe on the move. Make the module reduce this to 26%, 20%, and 15% for the three tiers you can buy. Using medium range weapons 15% spread would not make much difference because the target is larger relative to your aiming devices at closer range, but at 1000m + it becomes something snipers really need to think about before firing. It also means that to jump snipe you need to invest in this module or you will miss a lot at range, which I think is a good trade off.

[3rdworld]

Please explain how a headshot on the right would be anything other than luck?

[Nightcrept]

The op's concept moves the game farther from realism.

I would prefer moving it closer to reality if it needs to be moved at all.

[Fut]

Nightcrept, on 15 April 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

The op's concept moves the game farther from realism.

I would prefer moving it closer to reality if it needs to be moved at all.

How would you go about moving it closer to reality?