378 replies to this topic

[cyberFluke]

TOGSolid, on 17 April 2013 - 12:29 AM, said:

Making the convergence timer variable based on distance would work well. The longer the shot, the longer it takes for your weapons to converge with a minimum timer to keep short range pinpoint boats honest.

Welp something has to be done, this really is too easy now. The following with Two ERPPCs on a CAT-C1(F)

[Kitane]

Suggesting a blooming crosshair mechanic when the game desperately needs to tone down long range sniping and improve brawling...is strange.

I don't want to add dispersion...I would be perfectly fine with restricting convergence adjustments to arm mounted weapons and leave hull mounted weapons fire in fixed parallel lines. That would increase skill cap and tone down alpha strikes a little bit at the same time without adding randomness.

That aside, I will never really get why Mechwarrior games are full of pinpoint super precision weapons, when most if not all Inner Sphere mechs in BT Universe had their firing computers programmed by Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy.
That range indicated on our weapons is based on dispersion and inaccurate weapon aiming system, not on a loss of a power.

[MentalPatient]

I would personally prefer the crosshair to move around when I am moving rather than to have a random firing cone, that way, skill can still ensure good aim and movement. If you don't know what I'm talking about, arma 3 has implemented this to great effect,the bullets go where your crosshairs point, but the sights don't remain stationary, meaning it requires extreme patients, and skill to make shots count. I am not opposed to this kind of addition, not sure if it goes against what mechwarrior is about and yeah, to me it makes sense that these weapons would be gyro stabilised, but it would certainly make fire fights much more focused on precision rather than sheer amount of energy flying down stream.

[Alienfreak]

Kitane, on 17 April 2013 - 03:06 AM, said:

Suggesting a blooming crosshair mechanic when the game desperately needs to tone down long range sniping and improve brawling...is strange.

I don't want to add dispersion...I would be perfectly fine with restricting convergence adjustments to arm mounted weapons and leave hull mounted weapons fire in fixed parallel lines. That would increase skill cap and tone down alpha strikes a little bit at the same time without adding randomness.

That aside, I will never really get why Mechwarrior games are full of pinpoint super precision weapons, when most if not all Inner Sphere mechs in BT Universe had their firing computers programmed by Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy.
That range indicated on our weapons is based on dispersion and inaccurate weapon aiming system, not on a loss of a power.

Why does everyone think that the crosshair bloom is random?

Why not have weapon convergence from multiple sources on distance affect the bloom?
This could be like 400m(distance)/s in speed. So if you aim at something at 100 meter distance and suddenly aim at 300 metres it will take your mech 0.5 seconds to converge your weapons on that target. If you fire earlier your weapons will hit converged at a shorter distance and will cross paths, leading to not pinpoint accuracy. So if you fire after 0.25 seconds the weapons will cross paths at 200 meters and hit the further away target at different locations (or maybe misses it)

To represent the status of the weapon convergence there could be a reticule bloom. If it is a point your weapons are perfectly converged. If it is larger they are not.

This has two advantages:
1. In Brawling the distance change is not great so it does not nerf it too much.
2. Sniping gets harder. You have to point your weapons on the mech for a second while following its pace correctly. If you do this you will receive a good shot, if not you will not hit perfectly.
This also represents modern Tank FCS pretty well.

This method would encourage skill and it has 0% randomness in it. The weapon convergence is a linear speed represented by the reticule size (or whatever you can think of).

MentalPatient, on 17 April 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

I would personally prefer the crosshair to move around when I am moving rather than to have a random firing cone, that way, skill can still ensure good aim and movement. If you don't know what I'm talking about, arma 3 has implemented this to great effect,the bullets go where your crosshairs point, but the sights don't remain stationary, meaning it requires extreme patients, and skill to make shots count. I am not opposed to this kind of addition, not sure if it goes against what mechwarrior is about and yeah, to me it makes sense that these weapons would be gyro stabilised, but it would certainly make fire fights much more focused on precision rather than sheer amount of energy flying down stream.

Also this.

Edited by Alienfreak, 17 April 2013 - 06:27 AM.

[Lycan]

Davers, on 16 April 2013 - 10:50 PM, said:

People should really just give up on RNG. Not saying it is bad or anything, but PGI is not going to stop and redesign the entire core game play 5 months from launch.

Except for the teeny tiny fact that it doesn't look like PGI doesn't seem to have a clue on what it wants the "core game play" to be yet.

Also, because I can't resits. "It's beta!!!"

Quote

it is not a fps where you play a human.

So, you're not playing a FPS where you play as a human. Okay, if that's the case, then why are your weapons hitting EXACTLY where you aim them?

No, don't run to wiki and/or bring up all that advanced tech and precision weapons we have today because the world of 3050 isn't using that.

If people actually wanted to be piloting big giant war machines, that have been around for 100's of years, they could handle not being able to hit the exact spot their cursor rested on.

But, since that would "demean" their "skill", they can't have that. You get a MWO FPS were the pilot has fused with his machine and is now personally responsible for aiming his weapons.

[Alois Hammer]

XenomorphZZ, on 16 April 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Personally, I have no idea how we are defining "skill"

Based on the OP's repeated insistence on the "right" way to handle the issue, for this thread's purposes "skill" apparently means "the pure [REDACTED] luck to hit where you want inside the random-hit circle reliably."

He keeps using that word skill...I do not think that word means what he thinks it means.

[DGuedes]

I really like the idea , this will help too if they end up implementing 3rd person view, i think much of the fun of this game is not killing your enemy with 1~2 alphas, the game need to force you to maintain your aim, force you to keep accurate in the same spot , in order to destroy the component/ engine, thats all the fun IMHO.

[cyberFluke]

Alois Hammer, on 17 April 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

Based on the OP's repeated insistence on the "right" way to handle the issue, for this thread's purposes "skill" apparently means "the pure [REDACTED] luck to hit where you want inside the random-hit circle reliably."

He keeps using that word skill...I do not think that word means what he thinks it means.

The Clue, it went ===> that way.

[Vapor Trail]

Alois Hammer, on 17 April 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

Based on the OP's repeated insistence on the "right" way to handle the issue, for this thread's purposes "skill" apparently means "the pure [REDACTED] luck to hit where you want inside the random-hit circle reliably."

He keeps using that word skill...I do not think that word means what he thinks it means.

Clue bat:

Skill with a random scatter mechanic is knowing where to aim and when to fire to maximize your odds of hitting the desired spot.

Tiny target area, big probable hit area, chances are you're not going to hit what you want.

Large target area, small probable hit area, chances are you are going to hit what you want.

The skill is in judging the probability of hitting what you want at any given moment, and aiming to maximize those probabilities.

If we wanted to get really fancy we could implement a system that uses a multivariate normal distribution on a polar plane graduated in arcseconds to distribute the individual shot placements around the aimpoint... but I wouldn't want to blow any minds out there.

[Royalewithcheese]

Vapor Trail, on 17 April 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

Clue bat:

Skill with a random scatter mechanic is knowing where to aim and when to fire to maximize your odds of hitting the desired spot.

Tiny target area, big probable hit area, chances are you're not going to hit what you want.

Large target area, small probable hit area, chances are you are going to hit what you want.

The skill is in judging the probability of hitting what you want at any given moment, and aiming to maximize those probabilities.

If we wanted to get really fancy we could implement a system that uses a multivariate normal distribution on a polar plane graduated in arcseconds to distribute the individual shot placements around the aimpoint... but I wouldn't want to blow any minds out there.

There was (and maybe is - I don't really know the new non-Artemis SRM flightpath that well) a build that requires you to play like this: the Splatcat. The missiles you fire from that thing had (have?) a variable spread conditional on range, and every shot you take is making a calculated risk.

[Alienfreak]

Royalewithcheese, on 17 April 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

There was (and maybe is - I don't really know the new non-Artemis SRM flightpath that well) a build that requires you to play like this: the Splatcat. The missiles you fire from that thing had (have?) a variable spread conditional on range, and every shot you take is making a calculated risk.

SRM shotgun pattern are random and thus unskill.
LRM following and hitting is random and thus unskill.


REMOVE SRM SHOTGUN PATTERN IN FAVOR OF SKILL!
REMOVE LRM FOLLOWING PATTERN IN FAVOR OF SKILL!

We are not on a ******* table rolling dice when we are firing our missiles! Give us back our skill gameplay!

Edited by Alienfreak, 18 April 2013 - 04:30 AM.

[3rdworld]

cyberFluke, on 17 April 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

Welp something has to be done, this really is too easy now. The following with Two ERPPCs on a CAT-C1(F)

I wonder if you realize that screen does not support your argument.

[cyberFluke]

3rdworld, on 18 April 2013 - 04:34 AM, said:

I wonder if you realize that screen does not support your argument.

I wonder if you realise the context of the screenshot, or if you're just doing the best high density human impression I've ever seen.

[Royalewithcheese]

Alienfreak, on 18 April 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

SRM shotgun pattern are random and thus unskill.
LRM following and hitting is random and thus unskill.


REMOVE SRM SHOTGUN PATTERN IN FAVOR OF SKILL!
REMOVE LRM FOLLOWING PATTERN IN FAVOR OF SKILL!

We are not on a ******* table rolling dice when we are firing our missiles! Give us back our skill gameplay!

What, you mean that managing random weapon spread isn't the epitome of skilled FPS gameplay? This thread lied to me

[3rdworld]

cyberFluke, on 18 April 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

I wonder if you realise the context of the screenshot, or if you're just doing the best high density human impression I've ever seen.

Oh, I understand the point you are trying to make. But posting a screen where half the members don't do 200 damage does not support it.

Keep talking trash though.

Edited by 3rdworld, 18 April 2013 - 05:36 AM.

[cyberFluke]

3rdworld, on 18 April 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

Oh, I understand the point you are trying to make. But posting a screen where half the members don't do 200 damage does not support it.

Keep talking trash though.

*facepalm*

[Alienfreak]

Royalewithcheese, on 18 April 2013 - 05:26 AM, said:

What, you mean that managing random weapon spread isn't the epitome of skilled FPS gameplay? This thread lied to me

You didnt get the sarcasm?

PGI said that they removed any CoF and spread in favor of skill.

Yet missiles have random spread.

[Thecure]

I would "love" to be able to toggle through parts lock on enemy mech but somehow I feel that would bring more nerf threads...

[Alienfreak]

Thecure, on 18 April 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

I would "love" to be able to toggle through parts lock on enemy mech but somehow I feel that would bring more nerf threads...

I demand pin point accuracy for SRM!

REMOVE LUCK IN FAVOR OF SKILL!

Edited by Alienfreak, 18 April 2013 - 02:39 PM.