71 replies to this topic

[Snowseth]

Psydotek, on 16 April 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

I voted Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes.

My suggestion for accuracy reduction was to have a reticle that expands the higher your heat level. This is NOT the same as an expanding firing cone. Weapons will still be pinpoint accurate and always fire at the center of your reticle regardless of heat level. However, when the reticle circle and tick marks are spread out across half your screen it makes aiming difficult since you won't be able to quickly discern where the center is.

That's a good way to handle loss of accuracy due to heat. Make it entirely client-side, and such that individual pilot skill can in fact overcome the 'penalty'.

Edited by Snowseth, 16 April 2013 - 01:12 PM.

[Swiffllama]

Snowseth, on 16 April 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

That's a good way to handle loss of accuracy due to heat. Make it entirely client-side, and such that individual pilot skill can in fact overcome the 'penalty'.

I like this idea as well. Also, I would throw in to increase the mech shutdown time. Make it so that all heat has to be dissipated before the mech startup sequence begins. This makes shutting down really painful. Want to fire those 6 PPC's, go right on ahead. You might be shut down for a couple minutes.

[Cyke]

Psydotek's idea is a good one that is minor enough it won't seriously change game balance. Making the reticle expand without actually affecting the weapons' actual accuracy sounds like a great idea. Basically it'll be a purely visual HUD effect.
Purely for added visual feel, the entire HUD should flicker as well, just to make it look like the 'Mech's electronics are spazzing out due to the heat.

Reduction of top speed, acceleration, turn rate and torso/arm traverse speed would be good as well, but it shouldn't be too drastic.
Note that there is a good reason that any such changes need to be carefully tuned: they effectively encourage ballistic weapons, since heat penalties would primarily affect energy weapon builds.

[Theodor Kling]

Yep. Make heat more TT like! Especialyl the movement decrease ( top speed, twist, arms)

About ammo explosions: long high heat increasing risk sounds right. Sure ballistics become a liabilty this way, but then again, they generate far less heat in the first place, so less risk of overheating.
Only thing that realy needs to stray of the TT rules here is the damage from ammo explosions. Thinking mainly of MG ammo here, which is an insane killer if it explodes in TT.

[McTschegsn]

Voted all yes. Found it always strange that overheating without pushing override does absolute nothing but shutdown your mech even when on 140% 150% heat. Pushing Override blows you up when you build slightly more than 100%.
Doesn't make sense to me since heat is heat...
So buff the heat penalty system and people with high heat outputs have to choose wisely what they do...
Overall a good idea to go more in the direction of TT heat management.

[Big Giant Head]

Yeah, I mean what is about that alpha before you shutdown. Currently you can fire 3 PPC at 99% heat without having any troubles ( except for shutdown being little longer )

[Nihtgenga]

What would then be a reasonable penalty system in numbers?

[The Strange]

Psydotek, on 16 April 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

I voted Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes.

My suggestion for accuracy reduction was to have a reticle that expands the higher your heat level. This is NOT the same as an expanding firing cone. Weapons will still be pinpoint accurate and always fire at the center of your reticle regardless of heat level. However, when the reticle circle and tick marks are spread out across half your screen it makes aiming difficult since you won't be able to quickly discern where the center is.

Not a bad idea, but this would be very easy to circumvent by simply markling your screen with a marker so you always know where center is. I would rather see the reticle randomly jump around a little off from it's original location, so that it isn't possible to get around it so easily. If you had a shifting reticle, you would need a little luck as well to keep hitting the same spot on the enemy. Chances are, it would result in a spread of damage instead of allowing them to keep it pinpoint.

[Psydotek]

The Strange, on 17 April 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

Not a bad idea, but this would be very easy to circumvent by simply markling your screen with a marker so you always know where center is. I would rather see the reticle randomly jump around a little off from it's original location, so that it isn't possible to get around it so easily. If you had a shifting reticle, you would need a little luck as well to keep hitting the same spot on the enemy. Chances are, it would result in a spread of damage instead of allowing them to keep it pinpoint.

I thought about that too but the reticle is free floating which sorta defeats having the center of your screen marked. Even so you would still have to wait for the screen to center to the reticle.

Edit: Well, i was just messing around and realized that the "Lock arms to torso" option does keep the reticle mostly locked to the center of the screen but then you do lose the ability to quickly aim your arms independent of your torso and the aiming range of the arms.

Edited by Psydotek, 17 April 2013 - 08:49 PM.

[Hotthedd]

I vote yes. With heat penalties in place, we could even have truedubs without the 3 second jenner.

[Corvus Antaka]

IMHO a signifciant issue is that once at 80% you can alpha/shutdown/reboot/ with impunity, going over 100% and then shutting down right away has no ill effects.

[Rawyn]

In general I support this idea. But I've only ticked accuracy reduction option. Mainly because I'm missing a threshold of some sort. I wouldn't want my Lasers to explode as soon as my heat goes over 30% or whatever.

Starting with ~80% you should definately start to "feel" the negative consequences of heat, but damage to your internal structure should only occur if you actually overheat. Even with shutdown. So say you're at 90% heat, then Alpha strike with all your laz0rs, and overheat into like 140% heat.

Currently your 'Mech will shut down and a few moments later powers up again without any damage - except for that caused by enemy fire. I'd say you should be taking damage to the internal structure for as long your heat is over 110%. Going over 150% should have a chance to cause a meltdown.

[Kmieciu]

Going over 100% should cause internal damage, no matter if you shut down or not. This is so obvious that I consider it a bug, not an intended feature.
And why when I override and go over 100% the damage is dealt to a random part??? The damage should be spread evenly throughout the whole internals.

[Fooooo]

I always thought it was a little inconsistant that you can get to 99% heat, alpha 6 high heat weapons (sending you to 150+% heat) and suffer nothing but a little longer shutdown than normal.

Yet overriding and going to 110-115% causes damage and possible death.


Very inconsistant.


The problem is, you can't just have it somehow know you are going to do that and shut you down before you fire off your alpha. So, there should naturally be the same penaltys applied when you dont use override as when you DO use override.

Override lets you stay in control while the penaltys are there.

Not overriding means you suffer the penaltys while shutdown, meaning you should take less dmg overall as you will cool faster, however are more vunerable.

Or change the effects a little.

110% = 50% Chance of 1-2 dmg every second.
120% = 75% Chance of 1-3 dmg every second.
130% = 100% Chance of 1-5 dmg every second.

etc etc etc.

Basically, if you dont override, alpha at 99% heat then shutdown, you will suffer dmg every second you are over 100-110% heat just like as if you had hit override.

[FireSlade]

I love the ideas that heat is the great equalizer; it had negative impacts (not enough but some) in the MechWarrior series. The only changes I would suggest that I liked on top of what was suggested is that the systems start to "glitch" and get fuzzy like what happened in the last games and that missile locks become harder to maintain. Though I doubt that this heat system will ever get looked into even though I think that it would make it much harder on the boat designs and offer some more balanced design options.

[Buehgler]

Kmieciu, on 17 April 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

Going over 100% should cause internal damage, no matter if you shut down or not. This is so obvious that I consider it a bug, not an intended feature.

I also do not understand why you only take damage if you override and are over 100%. If your temp is over 100% you should take damage, period. Shutting down (auto or manual) should remove the heat load produced by the engine, letting you cool more quickly and thus take less damage. But evertime your heat is over 100% you should be taking damage. I believe that this small change would probably do more to discourage excessive alpha strike designs than anything else I have seen discussed.

[Snowseth]

Did some quick research, and lining up with some TT mechanics might be good.

Roughly: (freaking tables, no idea what I'm doing)

Heat Threshold(%) / Impact
36 / -10.8 kph, arm/twist/turn speed
57 / >-10% Accuracy
71 / -10.8 kph, arm/twist/turn speed
93 / -10% Accuracy
100 / 4s to Override
107 / -10.8 kph, arm/twist/turn speed
129 / -10% Accuracy, 3s to Override
136 / 10% of Full Crit
143 / -10.8 kph, arm/twist/turn speed
157 / 2s to Override
164 / 30% of Full Crit
171 / -10% Accuracy
179 / -10.8 kph, arm/twist/turn speed
186 / 1s to Override
200 / 60% of Full Crit
214 / No Override

Speed penalties are mitigated by the speed pilot skills, and are cumulative.
Accuracy penalties are mitigated by player skill, and are cumulative.

Add a new skill to mitigate the times to override. Quick Ignition is still viable for restarts.
Hitting 'O' stops the shutdown before it happens. So when you hit that heat threshold Betty will say "4 second until shutdown" or some timer will pop at the top of the screen. Your mech will be FMC (full mission capable) during that timeframe.
Maybe I'm the only one who seems to start shutting down before I can prevent it.

Full Crits would be a random crit to a valid piece of destructible equipment, that destroys the equipment. If it's ammo or a gauss rifle, the ammo explodes and does damage as a normal ammo explosion.
Add a new T2 skill to mitigate the chance of critting (-10%) or a skill to reduce the damage from Full to Half Crit. Or better yet, both skills.

There is a damage/turn to the pilot element. But in MWO the pilot is just a viewport and not really a thing. Maybe they could add a 'pilot unconscious' feature. "Feature" hehe.

Or replace the pilot damage impact with impact to targeting and the HUD.

Additionally, some of the higher heat penalties could be switched around and include permanent damage. For example:
36 / -10.8 kph, arm/twist/turn speed Temporary
71 / -10.8 kph, arm/twist/turn speed Temporary
107 / -10.8 kph, arm/twist/turn speed Permanent
43 / -10.8 kph, arm/twist/turn speed Permanent
179 / -10.8 kph, arm/twist/turn speed Permanent
So at 107% you're at -32kph with -10.8kph permanently lost.

Edited by Snowseth, 18 April 2013 - 10:02 AM.

[Grey Death Storm]

Snowseth, on 15 April 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

At present, heat/overheating is just an annoyance. "Oh no! Better hit "O" to override shutdown!"
But in the spirit of the TT, it should be a much bigger deal.

Excessive heat should cause the mech go slower.
Excessive heat should start interfering with aiming.
Engine heats should generate extra heat.
Really excessive heat should randomly crit random pieces of equipment, but not affect armor.


The heat system does not, and probably should not, perfectly align with the TT. Instead it should roughly follow the spirit of heat being the great equalizer. It should not be what it is currently, a 1-button-override-annoyance.

Once the heat system is updated, then all weapon systems should be re-balanced. Possibly including removing all recycle times, or setting all recycle times to 2.0 or 2.5s. If heat is the great equalizer, you should be able to fire your AC20 every 2.0s, if you accept the risk that your mech is going to run slow, your AC20 is going to have a good chance of being critted as it's plastic parts start melting (especially considering it's crit size), and your AC20 ammo is going to start exploding.

No if you add this heat plan you are going to add an even bigger headache to the game because most mechs are laser and balistic/LRM based fighters and they will run hot there is no escaping that fact. You add this heat plan your just going to complicate thing and at worst weaken the amount of weapons and fire power ratio you can bring to bare in your Mech also Gauss ammo has 90% chance of exploding you add this idea you might as well stop playing mechwarrior, leave heat inefficiency alone its fine the way it is.

Edited by Death Storm, 18 April 2013 - 01:14 PM.

[Nihtgenga]

Why the whining? The excessive firepower (or their consequences, the possibility of near-to-insta-kills) made the devs double internal HPs and nerf the non-engine DHS effciency -30% to reduce it...
I'd prefer to bring in heat management as factor, but roll back the doubled internal HPs and reduced DHS effect in exchange. The only big difference would be that for a win, a pilot would need to be less gung-ho on the trigger, but bring to bear the weaponry at his disposal to bear with a little more thought.

If you do not want to play anything more complicated than pacman, perhaps you should stick with that. The Battletech/Mechwarrior universe is complex, so naturally games based on it should be, too. Else nobody would have a reason to specificly play this game instead of Quake-/UT-style FPS.

[FireSlade]

Death Storm, on 18 April 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

No if you add this heat plan you are going to add an even bigger headache to the game because most mechs are laser and balistic/LRM based fighters and they will run hot there is no escaping that fact. You add this heat plan your just going to complicate thing and at worst weaken the amount of weapons and fire power ratio you can bring to bare in your Mech also Gauss ammo has 90% chance of exploding you add this idea you might as well stop playing mechwarrior, leave heat inefficiency alone its fine the way it is.

Ummm Gauss ammo is inert it's the Gauss Rifle that you have to worry about exploding and causing 20 damage to internals. You can solve the rifle explosion with C.A.S.E.