33 replies to this topic

[CW Archer]

I've been reading a lot of stuff on the forums about zellbrigen, and I just wanted to point out that a lot of people seem to have interpreted it incorrectly. For example, shooting at an opponents legs is not forbidden by the rules. In the spirit of zellbrigen and the clan mentality, I would argue that legging would be encouraged because it allows a warrior to end a fight quickly. Not to say that you can't put your personal spin and server rules on it, go ahead, it's your gaming experience after all. Just don't accuse people of not following zellbrigen unless the actual rules are infringed upon.

So here are the actual rules of zellbrigen for future reference.
Rules

The proscriptions of zellbrigen consist of the following rules:

• Each warrior will issue a challenge to a different enemy. If one side outnumbers the other, then the extra warriors on that side will stand aside until one of their comrades falls in battle. A warrior can challenge more than one unit at a time.^[4]
  
• A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected.^[4]
  
• A warrior has the right to refuse a challenge from an unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available.^[4]
  
• No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side.^[4]
  
• Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited.^[4]
  
• Systems that requires multiple units to operate, like C3 and TAG, are forbidden.^[4]
  
• Moving out of weapon range is prohibited.^[4]
  
• Failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited.^[4]
  
• A warrior is also expected to not retreat from inferior foes, or to engage his opponent in melee combat, though these are not part of the formal rules of zellbrigen.^[4]

Edited by CW Archer, 04 June 2012 - 12:18 PM.

[CaveMan]

Moderators, please sticky this topic. Zell gets discussed ad nauseam and the reference would be useful.

[CW Archer]

Again, these aren't the rules I'm saying you need to play by, or that you can't change the rules to fit your play style and personal sense of honor, these are just the rules that are accepted as being official.

[Cyber Carns]

If you were to do a search on the clan forums I have posted the Zellbrigen rules a number of times:

http://mwomercs.com/...gen-discussion/

and

http://mwomercs.com/...rigenclan-honor

[CW Archer]

Well unfortunately people still don't seem to understand how zellbrigen is supposed to work. Just from the arguments I've seen over the last few days I figured posting the rules would help. I didn't realize it had already been done a number of times.

[Cyber Carns]

CW Archer, on 04 June 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

Well unfortunately people still don't seem to understand how zellbrigen is supposed to work. Just from the arguments I've seen over the last few days I figured posting the rules would help. I didn't realize it had already been done a number of times.

NP Archer. I dont think that people dont understand Zell, but they seem to pick and choose out of the rules to suit their needs. They do not realize that Clan vs Clan Zell would work but Clan vs IS does not since the IS does not follow our Honorable Zell rules. How many of them would follow them as listed:


Overview
Zellbrigen is ritualistic form of honor dueling practiced by the Warrior Caste of the Clans.^[1][2]
[edit]History
The practice of engaging opponents in single combat, the genesis of what would later become zellbrigen, was first started byClan Coyote during the Operation Klondike.^[3] Despite the losses incurred by this fighting method, Coyote's Khan Dana Kufahlwould continue to encourage her Clan and others to practice this "honorable" form of warfare. Eventually the practice would be taken up by all of the Clans, to a greater or lesser degree, in part as a way to minimize losses in both lives and resources.^[1][2]This is especially true when opposing commanders agreed to a duel to determine a battle's outcome.
During the Clan Invasion the rules of zellbrigen lapsed, primarily because the Inner Sphere had no concept of Clan cultural norms and, in some cases, exploited them for "underhanded" victories. By the end of the campaign zellbrigen had all but died out in several Clans, while most still reserve it for inter-Clan confrontations or against worthy Inner Sphere warriors.^[1][2]
[edit]Rules
The proscriptions of zellbrigen consist of the following rules:
§ Each warrior will issue a challenge to a different enemy. If one side outnumbers the other, then the extra warriors on that side will stand aside until one of their comrades falls in battle. A warrior can challenge more than one unit at a time.^{[4] ( How many except maybe DC, would be willing to do 1v1 dual against a Clan warrior when they have superior numbers?)}
§ A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected.^[4]
§ A warrior has the right to refuse a challenge from an unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available.^[4]
§ No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side.^[4]
§ Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited.^{[4 (How many of the IS would Stay in the line of sight when they are being fired upon by a Clan Warrior?)}
§ Systems that requires multiple units to operate, like C3 and TAG, are forbidden.^[4]
§ Moving out of weapon range is prohibited.^[4]
§ Failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited.^[4]
A warrior is also expected to not retreat from inferior foes, or to engage his opponent in melee combat, though these are not part of the formal rules of zellbrigen.^[4] Also, though it plays a central role in Clans' combat challenges, the ritual ofbatchallremains a separate tradition.
[edit]Interpretation
How zellbrigen is interpreted depends not only on the individual, but their parent Clan as a whole. At one end of the spectrum, the rules are strictly followed, the only exception being when fighting bandits, pirates or the most hated of enemies. At the opposite end, zellbrigen is figuratively "thrown out the airlock" and used only against other Clan warriors, and even then only when there is an advantage over them. In between are varying levels of adherence; for example, zellbrigen is followed unless circumstances dictated otherwise, such as being outnumbered or thinking one could get away with breaking it.^[4]
Prior to the Clan Invasion, Clan Blood Spirit, Clan Coyote, Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Goliath Scorpion, Clan Jade Falcon, Clan Star Adder and Clan Steel Viper adhered strictly to the tenants of zellbrigen. Meanwhile Clan Cloud Cobra, Clan Hell's Horses, Clan Ice Hellion, Clan Nova Cat and Clan Snow Raven were more opportunistic in their interpretation. Only Clan Diamond Shark andClan Wolf used a liberal interpretation of zellbrigen in their conflicts with the other Clans.^[4]
After their defeat at the Battle of Tukayyid, many of the Clans began to rethink their use of these honor rules, and a number of political, military and cultural changes took place. The Blood Spirits, Jade Falcons and Star Adders became more opportunistic, while the Ghost Bears became more liberal, in the use of zellbrigen. The schism within Clan Wolf resulted in its new Crusader-minded leadership to become slightly more conservative, while Clan Wolf-in-Exile maintain a flexible definition of zellbrigen.^[4]
Clan Fire Mandrill, by their fractious nature, defy any sort of labeling, with each Kindraa having their own individual understandings of zellbrigen.^[4]
[edit]References[color=#CCCCCC]

1. ↑ ^{1.0 1.1 1.2} Field Manual: Warden Clans, p.17[/color]

[color=#CCCCCC]

2. ↑ ^{2.0 2.1 2.2} Field Manual:Crusader Clans, p.15[/color]

[color=#CCCCCC]

3. ↑ Field Manual: Warden Clans, p. 40[/color]

[color=#CCCCCC]

4. ↑ ^{4.00 4.01 4.02 4.03 4.04 4.05 4.06 4.07 4.08 4.09 4.10 4.11 4.12} Total Warfare, p. 275[/color]

[edit]Bibliography
§ Field Manual: Crusader Clans
§ Field Manual: Warden Clans
§ Total Warfare

This is fron Sarna.net, they took the info out of the source books.

[Skylarr]

Why does it feel like allot of people who want to play a clanner are saying that "The Clans never used Zellbringing (or clan fighting system) against the IS barbarians".

I found this about the Clan Honor System on the web. I feel it is how the Clans would treat the IS:

Zellbrigen (Dueling)


Under the rules for ritual dueling, or zellbrigen, Clan players must declare a target for each of their dueling 'Mechs. A typical declaration might sound something like, "I am MechWarrior Seth of Clan Steel Viper. I pilot the sole Summoner in Alpha Star. I hereby invoke the ritual of zellbrigen and challenge the pilot of the Orion adorned with the unit designation eleven to a duel of warriors. In this solemn matter, let no one interfere!"

During a duel, no other Clan warrior may attack either of the dueling 'Mechs. If a third Inner Sphere unit interferes with a duel, the dueling Clan warrior may attack the interfering unit, provided that another Clan 'Mech has not already challenged the interloper to a duel. A duel ends when one combatant is destroyed, disabled or retreats from the battlefield.

At Honor Level 1, the Clan warrior upholds all the rules of dueling regardless of his opponent's actions.

At Honor Level 2, the Clan warrior follows the rules of dueling until the Inner Sphere side takes an action that violates the Clan honor code (a third party interfering, a unit involved in one duel firing on a 'Mech involved in another duel, and so on). If this happens, the duel immediately degenerates into a free-for-all.

At Honor Level 3, any infringement of Clan honor in the dueling rules renders the entire ritual of zellbrigen null and void, leaving the Clan 'Mechs free to attack any enemy unit without restraint for the remainder of the ehgagement.

At Honor Level 4, dueling rules do not apply.

Physical Attacks:

Unlike the formal ritual of dueling, the Clans' dislike of physical attacks in 'Mech combat is an informal, if widespread, custom. No explanation has yet been given for this distaste, though some experts suspect that Nicholas Kerensky chose to encourage a long-range fighting style among the Clans.

At Honor Level 1, a Clan warrior never makes physical attacks in 'Mech combat.

At Honor Level 2, a Clan warrior may make a physical attack only if an enemy unit makes one first. Any Clan unit may freely engage that 'Mech in physical combat.

At Honor Level 3, a single physical attack by an Inner Sphere 'Mech allows all Clan warriors to retaliate in kind against all enemy units for the remainder of the engagement.

At Honor Level 4, the taboo against physical attacks no longer applies.

Retreat:

Clan MechWarriors despise their Inner Sphere counterparts because they consider Inner Sphere armies dishonorable warriors fighting in inferior 'Mechs. Therefore, Clan warriors consider retreating from Inner Sphere opponents a disgrace almost beyond redemption. When allowed to choose whether or not to flee a losing battle, many Clan warriors prefer to fight to the death.

At Honor Level 1, a Clan warrior never retreats.

At Honor Level 2, Clan warriors may retreat from enemy 'Mechs that are using advanced technology, but never from 'Mechs, armor or infantry units using 3025 (Level 1) technology.

At Honor Level 3, Clan warriors may retreat from any vintage of enemy 'Mech, but will not retreat from armor or infantry units.

At Honor Level 4, Clan warriors may retreat at will.

Almost every Trueborn starts off at Level 1. Some may be Level 2. Freeborns will most likely be Level 2 and some Level 3. Dezgra or Solahma units would most like be in the 3 or 4 area. This is before the Battle of Tukayyid. Most invading Clans units slid down the scale with only the most elite units staying at Level 1.

How zellbrigen is interpreted depends not only on the individual, but their parent Clan as a whole. At one end of the spectrum, the rules are strictly followed, the only exception being when fighting bandits, pirates or the most hated of enemies. At the opposite end, zellbrigen is figuratively "thrown out the airlock" and used only against other Clan warriors, and even then only when there is an advantage over them. In between are varying levels of adherence; for example, zellbrigen is followed unless circumstances dictated otherwise, such as being outnumbered or thinking one could get away with breaking it.

Prior to the Clan Invasion, Clan Blood Spirit, Clan Coyote, Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Goliath Scorpion, Clan Jade Falcon, Clan Star Adder and Clan Steel Viper adhered strictly to the tenants of zellbrigen. Meanwhile Clan Cloud Cobra, Clan Hell's Horses, Clan Ice Hellion, Clan Nova Cat and Clan Snow Raven were more opportunistic in their interpretation. Only Clan Diamond Shark and Clan Wolf used a liberal interpretation of zellbrigen in their conflicts with the other Clans.

After their defeat at the Battle of Tukayyid, many of the Clans began to rethink their use of these honor rules, and a number of political, military and cultural changes took place. The Blood Spirits, Jade Falcons and Star Adders became more opportunistic, while the Ghost Bears became more liberal, in the use of zellbrigen. The schism within Clan Wolf resulted in its new Crusader-minded leadership to become slightly more conservative, while Clan Wolf-in-Exile maintain a flexible definition of zellbrigen.

Clan Fire Mandrill, by their fractious nature, defy any sort of labeling, with each Kindraa having their own individual understandings of zellbrigen.

This will not come into play during the random battles. I am guessing this will only come into play during pre-made battle between Guilds//Clans/Houses/Factions. Then it will be for bragging rights.

It should also be noted that most clans fought IS green and regular warriors with 3025 Tech. The more elite units with better Tech put up a good fight and may have won some battle, but, 12 (or 24) Mechs cannot hold a battlefield when their flanks are being over run.

[phelancracken]

Sigh. Yes, clanners used zell, but correct me if I am wrong, but when your opposing foes break zell through several means, you change your tactics. You also keep forgetting that the clans had access to Wolf's Dragoons intel. What they did with that intel is their progative. However,

I do have a question, is this found in the MAIN rules set? No. The reference from the Total Warfare is proceded by this. Page 273. Players should be aware, however, that it is generally difficult to accurately balance Battetech games, even under the rules of this section; the use of Clan honor makes absolute game balance impossible. (Found in Total Warfare, page 273) The game developers of the table top have made it clear that clan honor, aka zell, is impossible to get balanced in the game. It also states before that part that clans should have better skill sets or larger forces to offset the handicap of Clan honor. All players should agree to the use of clan honor before the start of play of the scenario. Also in Total Warfare page 273 same section.

It also states in Total Warfare, same page, The clan codes of honor, or zellbringen, also known as rules of engagement, are not part of the standard Battletech game rules as presented in the previous sections of Total Warfare. However, players can use these codes to enhance the roleplaying aspect of Battletech, Again, page 273, Total Warfare.

Where the arguement is starting in the other thread is this, "Is it possible to force clan pilots to use Honor rules? I think it can." That's the title of the thread. You can't force clan pilots due to multiple reasons. This is were the disagreement on zell is coming from. BV is the main method to balance clans that is used in tt conventions across the country.

editted due to omission on my part.

Edited by phelancracken, 08 June 2012 - 11:00 AM.

[CW Archer]

I'm not advocating using zellbrigen, I think abritrary honor in videogames is stupid (roleplaying aside), just tired of people not realizing what the actual rules are.

[phelancracken]

I do know, and realized long time ago that it was a role play rule set overall. I do understand what your saying and I agree it's an Optional rule set. It's not included in the core rules of the Battletech system for a reason. They had come up with a better way to balance IS versus clan fights. As I have stated in a previous post here, it's the title of that thread that makes it obvious they want to always beat the clans. That being said, let's play the game and have fun. Isn't that the whole reason for playing Battletech? I still remember it as BT and not CBT. It wasn't around long enough to be called CBT when I started playing.

[Kartr]

phelancracken, on 08 June 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Sigh. Yes, clanners used zell, but correct me if I am wrong, but when your opposing foes break zell through several means, you change your tactics. You also keep forgetting that the clans had access to Wolf's Dragoons intel. What they did with that intel is their progative.

It depends on the Clan, some Clans let their warriors do away with Zell if the enemy doesn't use it while others require their warriors to use Zell and fight "honorably" no matter what.

phelancracken, on 08 June 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

However,

I do have a question, is this found in the MAIN rules set? No. The reference from the Total Warfare is proceded by this. Page 273. Players should be aware, however, that it is generally difficult to accurately balance Battetech games, even under the rules of this section; the use of Clan honor makes absolute game balance impossible. (Found in Total Warfare, page 273) The game developers of the table top have made it clear that clan honor, aka zell, is impossible to get balanced in the game. It also states before that part that clans should have better skill sets or larger forces to offset the handicap of Clan honor. All players should agree to the use of clan honor before the start of play of the scenario. Also in Total Warfare page 273 same section.

That's not what that says at all!

"Players should be aware that it is generally difficult to accurately balance BattleTech games, even under the rules in this section;" This is merely saying that it is difficult to balance BattleTech games, period, always and in every situation. It then goes on to say EVEN using the rules in this section, which implies that the rules in this section are designed to help balance the game, Zellbrigen is designed to help balance the game.

"The use of Clan honor makes absolute balance impossible." All this is saying is that it is not possible to use Zellbrigen to make things perfectly balanced. However we know that the game is already difficult to balance and that Zellbrigen was supposed to help balance the game. They're just warning the players that even with Zellbrigen the game is going to be unbalanced (presumably towards the Clans since they're what throws it out of balance in the first place).

Zellbrigen is designed to help balance the Clans so that the game is closer to even. That's just a warning saying that even with Zell the game won't be perfectly even.

phelancracken, on 08 June 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Where the arguement is starting in the other thread is this, "Is it possible to force clan pilots to use Honor rules? I think it can." That's the title of the thread. You can't force clan pilots due to multiple reasons. This is were the disagreement on zell is coming from. BV is the main method to balance clans that is used in tt conventions across the country.

You can't force Clan pilots to use Zell in table top because there are no hard coded parameters. However in a video game you can program in parameters that either force Clan players to abide by some level of Zellbrigen, or simply reward/punish them for breaking it.

Also from a lore perspective pilots can be (and were) forced to follow Zellbrigen by their superiors. Since each Clan had different interpretations of when Zell was in force and what exactly each rule meant, the devs can decide how strict they want to make Zell and strength or relax it in order to help balance the Clan and IS forces.

BV is a boring and unimaginative way to balance the game, especially when coding gives you other options.

Edited by Kartr, 08 June 2012 - 01:42 PM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

agreed Kartr, but what the TT also is saying is: even when Zell is played by players on the TT, it won't balance the game, so even trying to enforce or encourage it in the game is the same effect.

[Kartr]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 08 June 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

agreed Kartr, but what the TT also is saying is: even when Zell is played by players on the TT, it won't balance the game, so even trying to enforce or encourage it in the game is the same effect.

Have what same effect? Its saying that while the game still won't be perfectly balanced it will still be more balanced. Increasing and decreasing the strictness of Zellbrigen along with decreasing and increasing the effects of Role/Information warfare (on both sides) gives the devs a lot of tools to balance the game, without forcing Clan players to all drive 'Mechs 20+ levels below their IS enemies.

[BenEEeees VAT GROWN BACON]

I think when down to the last 2 players in a match, Zellbrigen can be called and agreed upon between the players informally - like a 1v1 knife fight in Counter-Strike.

[Joanna Conners]

BenEEeees VAT GROWN BACON, on 08 June 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

I think when down to the last 2 players in a match, Zellbrigen can be called and agreed upon between the players informally - like a 1v1 knife fight in Counter-Strike.

We used to do the same thing in MW3 all the time.

[Skylarr]

phelancracken, on 08 June 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Sigh. Yes, clanners used zell, but correct me if I am wrong, but when your opposing foes break zell through several means, you change your tactics. You also keep forgetting that the clans had access to Wolf's Dragoons intel. What they did with that intel is their progative.

Can someone find the passage in the Novel were Natasha is questioned about the Dragoons failer to send Intel reports the last 20 years.

So the only current Intell the Clans had was from captured IS Officer and from Comstar.


As several people have stated before in multiple threads. ZELBRINGING CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT BE FORCED.


It should be REWARDED. Give Bonus XP and FAction Points. Institue an HP (Honor Point) system. If a Clan Warrior wants use Zellbringing he would just move his mouse over the target and see its HP level. Then tartegt him and maybe hit the letter "H". This would generate an Instant message on the tartget screen stating he is being challenged and by who. The the target can say Yes, NO, or ignore it.

For as long as Zellbringing is followed both sides receive HP. The Clanner could even ask multiple targets. Thsi will not work in a fast pace battle.

Both sides would gain HP to be used on upgrade to their Mechs or even at high Lvl HP for the IS Mechwarrior to by Clan weapons and Equipment and at high lvls to buy a clan Mech. his would represent Salvage. This could also be used for teh Clan warrior to aquire an IS mech. I know most clanners will not want one , but, some may want one just to do random matchs. I am sure the Devs could work out the kinks.

[CoffiNail]

[phelancracken]

Kartr, on 08 June 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

It depends on the Clan, some Clans let their warriors do away with Zell if the enemy doesn't use it while others require their warriors to use Zell and fight "honorably" no matter what.


That's not what that says at all!

"Players should be aware that it is generally difficult to accurately balance BattleTech games, even under the rules in this section;" This is merely saying that it is difficult to balance BattleTech games, period, always and in every situation. It then goes on to say EVEN using the rules in this section, which implies that the rules in this section are designed to help balance the game, Zellbrigen is designed to help balance the game.

"The use of Clan honor makes absolute balance impossible." All this is saying is that it is not possible to use Zellbrigen to make things perfectly balanced. However we know that the game is already difficult to balance and that Zellbrigen was supposed to help balance the game. They're just warning the players that even with Zellbrigen the game is going to be unbalanced (presumably towards the Clans since they're what throws it out of balance in the first place).

Bud, first off, you should read the fact that it does state BEFORE that section I quoted that clan forces should have stronger forces or better skill sets to offset the disadvantages that the clans will be placed under using zell. Doing that creates it's own can of worms. The devs and the TT game devs came up with a simple as possible way to make a balanced as possible game system that can be used everywhere and get basically the same results everytime using the same rules. This is an optional rule as I have stated and is found in the optional rule section of Total Warfare. It don't help the game mechanics at their very core. It's fluff. It's to enhance the roleplay of the game. Even if you don't care to admit it, it's the honest truth. if zell was the core of the game it would have been included in the Battletech compendium back in 1990 when the clans were INTRODUCED to the game. Zell isn't mentioned at all in the Compendium, it's mentioned in the TRO3050 backhandedly but only mentioned in sourcebooks and the like which are used more for roleplaying mechwarrior. It was NEVER used as the main balancing tool for creating even IS versus clan fights. Or it would be mentioned and used in the Battletech Compendium for that time it was the main ruleset.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Coffi where is that pic from?

[CoffiNail]

MW2 Player's Guide written by Blaine Pardoe. The guide was packaed with the MW2 Battlepack box set.