105 replies to this topic

[Tie Ma]

John MatriX82, on 17 April 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

I guess they simply decided to half the side movement capability when compared to the other HGNs to address the problem of the triple crosshair.. I'm fine with it, probably they should have locked up both arms only to pitch movement, but they would have probably needed to leave some more torso twist ratio to compensate this.. they did the opposite.

I'm not complaining about this, besides that it's a strange choice. But.. oh.. Where's my King Crab now that we can have AC 20's on side moving arms? Where?!!?

i think the king crab splits the AC20 space into the torso though. and we don't have that allowed right now.

[Joseph Mallan]

Tie Ma, on 16 April 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

So the 733C has magical actuators on its right arm that doesn't take up any space.

pretty nice if your a 733C pilot. good to have that niiiice lateral AC20 movement.

pretty ****** if you are a realism advocate.

Just rotating my arm... My shoulder is doing the work. Hold your arm like an Atlas and feel your deltoid as you swing your arm. It's doing all the flexing as far as I am feeling...Upper arm actuator?

[Shumabot]

Tie Ma, on 17 April 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

sure the function of lateral movement splits the difference but the crit space doesn't split the difference. if it did. you have 2.5 crit space on ur right arm (+ 0.5 crit space in each arm). how will you have enough space to put in your AC20.

and if you are saying it splits the difference. what decides what arm the whole crit space goes in?


there is no possible logical way to argue for the 733C implementation. which is why i'm so against it. its logic breaking, rule breaking.

You're arguing for adherence to logic that isn't based on reality or mathematical proofs, which is already violated in numerous ways in the game, and which is harmful to the game as a whole. You are arguing for nostalgia, not logic.

Joseph Mallan, on 17 April 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Just rotating my arm... My shoulder is doing the work. Hold your arm like an Atlas and feel your deltoid as you swing your arm. It's doing all the flexing as far as I am feeling...Upper arm actuator?

Human joints aren't single axis rotation points. One of the nicest things this games art update did was get rid of the stupid axle hips and shoulders that ensured that mechs could never walk or do anything useful.

[MustrumRidcully]

Shumabot, on 17 April 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

You're arguing for adherence to logic that isn't based on reality or mathematical proofs, which is already violated in numerous ways in the game, and which is harmful to the game as a whole. You are arguing for nostalgia, not logic.

I disagree that having acutators serve an actual positive - offering an advantage in firing arc at the cost of crit space and it wouldn't be harmful to the game.

The current implementation however seems harmful, because some mechs arbitrarily have less crit space available then others, without getting anything in return.

[John MatriX82]

Tie Ma, on 17 April 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

i think the king crab splits the AC20 space into the torso though. and we don't have that allowed right now.

Yep it should, but if they remove the limitation of the lower arm like they did for the highlander, *maybe* there's hope for the crab anyway.

[Shumabot]

MustrumRidcully, on 17 April 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

I disagree that having acutators serve an actual positive - offering an advantage in firing arc at the cost of crit space and it wouldn't be harmful to the game.

The current implementation however seems harmful, because some mechs arbitrarily have less crit space available then others, without getting anything in return.

I agree that that is the 'tradeoff', however mechs with arm actuators as I outlined before have lower firing angles, larger and more easily destroyed arms, and issues with weapon convergence that make them harder to pilot. I would think those would already be harsh enough. Anecdotally, it appears that the best mechs tend to be the ones without arms for the reasons outlined (though without better distribution of weights its hard to fairly compare them).

[Tie Ma]

John MatriX82, on 17 April 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

Yep it should, but if they remove the limitation of the lower arm like they did for the highlander, *maybe* there's hope for the crab anyway.

i don't see why its so hard to implement split criticals.

just have the excess critical slots spill over to adjacent torso as dynamic crit spaces. and limit those dynamic crit spaces from going anywhere except the adjacent torso. very simple to code in.

the rules state that when a weapon is split, its movement is restricted to that of the less mobile component. so the split AC20 in the arm would fire like a torso weapon.

Edited by Tie Ma, 17 April 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[Shumabot]

I genuinly don't get why you're trying to transfer tabletop mechanics into another game. Those TT mechanics weren't even justified in the fluff. "crit spaces" aren't a thing in bt lore.

[Tie Ma]

Shumabot, on 17 April 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

I genuinly don't get why you're trying to transfer tabletop mechanics into another game. Those TT mechanics weren't even justified in the fluff. "crit spaces" aren't a thing in bt lore.

why do you keep saying that.

this has nothign to do with TT. crit spaces are in THIS GAME. you see those little boxes when you go to the mech lab that say empty when theres nothing in it? those are crit spaces.

Edited by Tie Ma, 17 April 2013 - 08:34 AM.

[Shumabot]

Tie Ma, on 17 April 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

why do you keep saying that.

this has nothign to do with TT. crit spaces are in THIS GAME. you see those little boxes when you go to the mech lab that say empty when theres nothing in it? those are crit spaces.

And mechs in THIS GAME have been violating those rules for a year. These aren't "rules", they aren't logical, they don't serve a gameplay or balance purpose, and they're stupid.

This is transparently just you wanting to ape another games mechanics and justifications for consistencies sake to the detriment of the game itself.

Edited by Shumabot, 17 April 2013 - 08:35 AM.

[Tie Ma]

Shumabot, on 17 April 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

And mechs in THIS GAME have been violating those rules for a year. These aren't "rules", they aren't logical, they don't serve a gameplay or balance purpose, and they're stupid.

This is transparently just you wanting to ape another games mechanics and justifications for consistencies sake to the detriment of the game itself.

they are rules the game set for itself. PGI made these rules.

Edited by Tie Ma, 17 April 2013 - 08:37 AM.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Take it from another point of view.That actuator on SRM hand is on that arm and it still move only 10 degrees but should move 20 as on other highlanders...it do not seems fair to me .

[Shumabot]

Tie Ma, on 17 April 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

they are rules the game set for itself. PGI made these rules.

No, they didn't. You just assume two things are linked, despite evidence to the contrary and the fact that they aren't following the rules now. They are linked only because you want them to be.

[Budor]

Is this thread about the 733c being able to shoot the ac20 aiming with the arm reticule and the YLW not being able to do it?

[Joseph Mallan]

Shumabot, on 17 April 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

Human joints aren't single axis rotation points. One of the nicest things this games art update did was get rid of the stupid axle hips and shoulders that ensured that mechs could never walk or do anything useful.

An interesting point. I agree with you about this game's artists too. They seem to have a bit more Mechanical knowledge. But the ability to rotate an arm would be up in the bicep/ deltoid area. Even if it was a system similar to a tank turret I would think.

[Shumabot]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 April 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

An interesting point. I agree with you about this game's artists too. They seem to have a bit more Mechanical knowledge. But the ability to rotate an arm would be up in the bicep/ deltoid area. Even if it was a system similar to a tank turret I would think.

The rotator can be anywhere, though it isn't on humans (since that's not how human joints work). The placement of the joint really only determines where the joint is located, it doesn't determine how the joint functions. I've done IK rigging in the past, and any joint at the end of the chain can be a z rotator. The human body doesn't have rotation joints, it mimics them by combining multiple joints that have limited axial freedom. The only meaningful function on a "lower arm actuator" is determining where the joint exists and allowing it to bend along whatever axis of freedom it allows. All you need is freedom on two rotational axis to point a shoulder joint anywhere, and FD designed those exact kinds of joints into these mechs. Lower arm actuators being linked to horizontal targeting is nonsense and has never been how the game worked.

Edited by Shumabot, 17 April 2013 - 08:58 AM.

[Kdogg788]

Honestly nerfing the Highlander range of horizontal arm movement from 10 degrees to zero to adhere to canon tabletop Battletech rules is extremely inconsequential and has no real effect on the gameplay anyways. Nice try though. It is amazing that this thread has continued as far as it has with such heated debate over such a minor topic.

-k

[Tie Ma]

Kdogg788, on 17 April 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

Honestly nerfing the Highlander range of horizontal arm movement from 10 degrees to zero to adhere to canon tabletop Battletech rules is extremely inconsequential and has no real effect on the gameplay anyways. Nice try though. It is amazing that this thread has continued as far as it has with such heated debate over such a minor topic.

-k

you don't nerf it you do this http://mwomercs.com/...geting-reticle/

[Zeroskills]

I think I would much rather have PGI's programmers working on bug fixes and CW than trying to reprogram the crit system and/or add a three reticle system to fix this non-problem. Maybe somewhere down the road when the game is in a much better state they can come back and look at this, but for now their solution is fine with me.

[Kdogg788]

Zeroskills, on 17 April 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

I think I would much rather have PGI's programmers working on bug fixes and CW than trying to reprogram the crit system and/or add a three reticle system to fix this non-problem. Maybe somewhere down the road when the game is in a much better state they can come back and look at this, but for now their solution is fine with me.

Exactly. I'd rather they bandaid over the minor logical inconsistencies and focus on CW, netcode, and current bugs.

-k