273 replies to this topic

[Elucid Ward]

fearfactory, on 02 November 2011 - 05:03 PM, said:

Yeah, but canon customs have published record sheets. Plus I'm fairly positive that customs are more in-line with the rules in Strategic Operations than the "on the fly/without any consequences" style most of the MechWarrior games have used. It's no cop out.

Have you read any of my posts throughout this thread? Any at all? Please, go and read them, all of them. And then read them again. Then come back to me.

fearfactory, on 02 November 2011 - 05:03 PM, said:

What's wrong with picking a 'Mech that suits your style? I don't see the problem. I don't see how customization is really needed when it wasn't such a big deal that it was excluded in Multiplayer BattleTech: 3025 (AFAIK).

Speak for yourself.

fearfactory, on 02 November 2011 - 05:03 PM, said:

Easy. Drop weight limits. Say there is a 200 ton limit (think MechCommander). Want to assault boat? Go ahead, you're probably going to be outnumbered by lights and mediums.

I think you may have missed my point. Persistence isn't something that should be stored locally - especially character/mechwise. If you are able to have custom servers, this would probably ***** up that side of things.

[fearfactory]

Elucid Ward, on 02 November 2011 - 05:08 PM, said:

Have you read any of my posts throughout this thread? Any at all? Please, go and read them, all of them. And then read them again. Then come back to me.

You mean how you don't care about new players being curb stomped by "superior gamers" (which, would probably would be most of those who can't live without min/maxing powergaming)? Yeah...

Elucid Ward, on 02 November 2011 - 03:16 AM, said:

I don't care about catering to the lowest common denominator. ****** 'em. If they get curb stomped by someone better, then they can learn to play better - in fact you learn more in losing than you do in winning. I hate the attitude that EVERYTHING in gaming should be handed to you with a happy ending. That undermines the skill aspect of the game.

I'm glad you're not a dev for this statement alone. I used to love playing video games until people started to take them too seriously (modern warfare...). There's no fun in constantly being told to play better from someone who has the time to spend weeks becoming better and better in the game. MechWarrior 4 is a good example of what's wrong with customization/game balance. Assault boats everywhere, and when someone pops in using something light or medium you're pretty much done for.

Edited by fearfactory, 02 November 2011 - 05:25 PM.

[Elucid Ward]

fearfactory, on 02 November 2011 - 05:16 PM, said:

You mean how you don't care about new players being curb stomped by "superior gamers" (which, would probably would be most of those who can't live without min/maxing powergaming)? Yeah...

So the real answer is no. You haven't. Read the rest of them. Not just the cherry picked ones that you can use to support your argument. Read it in full context sunshine.

fearfactory, on 02 November 2011 - 05:16 PM, said:

I'm glad you're not a dev for this statement alone. I used to love playing video games until people started to take them too seriously (modern warfare...). There's no fun in constantly being told to play better from someone who has the time to spend weeks becoming better and better in the game. MechWarrior 4 is a good example of what's wrong with customization/game balance. Assault boats everywhere, and when someone pops in using something light or medium you're pretty much done for.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have our lowest common denominator. How's your self entitlement coming along sunshine? That Silver Platter shiny enough for you?

Modern Warfare is full of instant gratification wh0ring. That exactly what I don't want. So please, either read my entire chain of comments RE customisation, including the mad debate/discussion on limitation around page 6 or 7, and the ways I suggested dealing with it, then come back.

Either that, or I'll requote myself for you.

Edited by Elucid Ward, 02 November 2011 - 05:34 PM.

[fearfactory]

Elucid Ward, on 02 November 2011 - 05:29 PM, said:

So the real answer is no. You haven't. Read the rest of them. Not just the cherry picked ones that you can use to support your argument.

I did. That one stood out to me because it was ridiculous.

[Elucid Ward]

fearfactory, on 02 November 2011 - 05:31 PM, said:

I did. That one stood out to me because it was ridiculous.

And it was spoken from experience. From my experience playing Tribes, about 12 years ago, against the local vets, on 56k. And I got curb stomped. Repeatedly. Read the post after it RE: context for my statement.

Here, I'll do your job for you.

Elucid Ward, on 02 November 2011 - 04:18 AM, said:

...To add a little perspective to where my fiery passion is coming from, and my constant referencing to T:A, I'll give a quick bit of background.

BT and Tribes are two of my all time favourite franchises and IPs. Both are being rebooted. One of them is an abortion already, and I would be devastated if MWO followed suit, and I ended up with two of my favourites butchered.

As for difficulty, coming from a Tribes background, I faced a MASSIVE learning curve when I started playing, and was constantly stomped, face first in to the ground. But I persevered. And I got better. Nothing was more rewarding to me than the first time I made a flag cap, because I worked my a$$ to get good enough to go up against the vets, and hold my own.

That sort of feeling is not something that can be handed to you. You work for it. You want it. And it feels oh so good when you get it.

If MWO is too easy out of the gates, then that sort of feeling... well it just won't be there. For you, for me, or for any noob that comes along.

Once again, you've cherry picked and ignored the rest.

[fearfactory]

Elucid Ward, on 02 November 2011 - 05:38 PM, said:

Once again, you've cherry picked and ignored the rest.

It doesn't matter. How does that make you any better than the people who smacked you around? You basically joined them.

Elucid Ward, on 02 November 2011 - 12:12 AM, said:

Arbitrary limitation of a game's renowned customisation aspect. Hmmm... who else is doing that, and how many people aren't happy?

Limiting customisation beyond the scope of canon and tech readouts is possibly the worst thing that could be done. Sure, have canon constraints that fit the mech's in question (ie - you're not going to jam a long tom into a Jenner, no matter how much you stuff around with it), but don't just limit it to a bunch of bog stock Mechs and go "Hey, your customisation aspect ends at what we give you."

Make the hardware realistically expensive relative to canon. Make the people WORK for it - that awesome Clan tech ER PPC that was salvaged in the last scrim with the Jade Falcons along their invasion corridor is NOT going to be cheap on the black market.

There are so many ways to implement 'limited' unlimited customisation and maintain balance - dropships aren't even remotely cheap, and let's forget about Jumpships. An effective limitation would be weight based, a'la MW3's MFBs - even top tier merc bands won't be able to amass bullsh*t levels of hardware if they are unable to cart it around everywher. This idea in itself would discourage hoarding, and potentially stimulate the in game economy;
ie. Just got an awesome Los-Tech Large PLaser or what have you. But it's going to push you over your available dropship tonnage... Hmmm... let's strip out that old Large Laser and flog it off to make some coin back on the investment.

And so on and so forth.

The problem with this is the amount of time people can afford to put into a game. I would prefer something that you can simply jump in and have the same ability to have the same capabilities/equipment as everyone else. People who spend a lot of time playing the game will eventually be able to abuse what you suggest to have in place by having stockpiles of good equipment. AND this is where customization becomes a problem. I won't be playing for hours upon hours and I'm sure there are others out there like me who wouldn't be able to do the same. If someone was beating me up constantly with a canon variant because the figured out how to use it well I would be OK with it. If someone was beating me up with an overpowered custom with equipment they played for hours upon hours to get while I don't have the same amount of time to pour into the game? Not fun.

[Elucid Ward]

fearfactory, on 02 November 2011 - 05:53 PM, said:

It doesn't matter. How does that make you any better than the people who smacked you around? You basically joined them.

Nope, I became RL friends with them, and had more fun than I have had before, or since, in any multiplayer game.

fearfactory, on 02 November 2011 - 05:53 PM, said:

The problem with this is the amount of time people can afford to put into a game. I would prefer something that you can simply jump in and have the same ability to have the same capabilities/equipment as everyone else. People who spend a lot of time playing the game will eventually be able to abuse what you suggest to have in place by having stockpiles of good equipment. AND this is where customization becomes a problem. I won't be playing for hours upon hours and I'm sure there are others out there like me who wouldn't be able to do the same. If someone was beating me up constantly with a canon variant because the figured out how to use it well I would be OK with it. If someone was beating me up with an overpowered custom with equipment they played for hours upon hours to get while I don't have the same amount of time to pour into the game? Not fun.

So you want an instant win button? Go play Mech Assault.

You glossed over my posts AGAIN by the way. I suggested ways of maintaining the balance of equipment/power, and it's all got to do with cost.

Overall, you're coming across as a typical newschool ingrate, and I don't blame you for your attitudes, because everything is handed to you on a silver platter these days. But you are not right - skill can't be gifted, can't be handed and can't be bought. If you're piloting in game is so terribad, and your tactical abilities so lacking, that you can't figure out a way to counter someone who's rocking a boat Assault, then you probably should walk back to COD.

Yes, I'm elitist, and yes, I will continue to spank you down, because people are not equal. Especially not in BT.

[fearfactory]

Elucid Ward, on 02 November 2011 - 06:01 PM, said:

Nope, I became RL friends with them, and had more fun than I have had before, or since, in any multiplayer game.

Cool story, bro.

Elucid Ward, on 02 November 2011 - 06:01 PM, said:

So you want an instant win button? Go play Mech Assault.

You glossed over my posts AGAIN by the way. I suggested ways of maintaining the balance of equipment/power, and it's all got to do with cost.

Overall, you're coming across as a typical newschool ingrate, and I don't blame you for your attitudes, because everything is handed to you on a silver platter these days. But you are not right - skill can't be gifted, can't be handed and can't be bought. If you're piloting in game is so terribad, and your tactical abilities so lacking, that you can't figure out a way to counter someone who's rocking a boat Assault, then you probably should walk back to COD.

Yes, I'm elitist, and yes, I will continue to spank you down, because people are not equal. Especially not in BT.

Come on... really? Like I don't know how to counter a pulse boat or missile boat. The problem is having to do this all the **** time. It gets freaking boring and this franchise is much more capable than this rock/paper/scissors or pokemon style of gameplay.

If you take gaming this seriously you really need to calm down on the gaming steroid abuse.

[IS Wolf]

fearfactory, on 02 November 2011 - 05:53 PM, said:

The problem with this is the amount of time people can afford to put into a game. I would prefer something that you can simply jump in and have the same ability to have the same capabilities/equipment as everyone else. People who spend a lot of time playing the game will eventually be able to abuse what you suggest to have in place by having stockpiles of good equipment. AND this is where customization becomes a problem. I won't be playing for hours upon hours and I'm sure there are others out there like me who wouldn't be able to do the same. If someone was beating me up constantly with a canon variant because the figured out how to use it well I would be OK with it. If someone was beating me up with an overpowered custom with equipment they played for hours upon hours to get while I don't have the same amount of time to pour into the game? Not fun.

With all due respect.

Suppose you're playing a 5 man charity basketball event. You and your buddies are facing Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Karl Malone. Are you really expecting to win against those guys? Even in a charity match that's not going to be feasible.

[AJC]

with no word on if we can even customize mechs yet i find this whole thread silly. wait until we have info on if we even can before saying anything.

those who judge before all the solid facts are out disgust me more than any other people.

Edited by AJC, 02 November 2011 - 06:27 PM.

[fearfactory]

IS-Wolf, on 02 November 2011 - 06:23 PM, said:

With all due respect.

Suppose you're playing a 5 man charity basketball event. You and your buddies are facing Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Karl Malone. Are you really expecting to win against those guys? Even in a charity match that's not going to be feasible.

Hell no. But why not give them better equipment to wipe the floor with us?

[Elucid Ward]

fearfactory, on 02 November 2011 - 06:16 PM, said:

Cool story, bro.



Come on... really? Like I don't know how to counter a pulse boat or missile boat. The problem is having to do this all the **** time. It gets freaking boring and this franchise is much more capable than this rock/paper/scissors or pokemon style of gameplay.

If you take gaming this seriously you really need to calm down on the gaming steroid abuse.

Any and all credibility you have, just went out with your pathetic little meme. You have nothing left - so just walk away. Your argument has been shredded, and it had little substance to being with, and now you're attacking me personally. Go away little person.

[Hawkcrest]

In the mechwarrior universe, your ability to pay was all about your ability to modify, a way to earn C-bills, and buy Technology should be a must, but the key here was the success rate of reverse engineering technology...everything was chance based and failed more often then not. So if an IS mech were refitted to use clan tech, it would be somthing modified if it worked at all.

[fearfactory]

Elucid Ward, on 02 November 2011 - 06:38 PM, said:

Any and all credibility you have, just went out with your pathetic little meme. You have nothing left - so just walk away. Your argument has been shredded, and it had little substance to being with, and now you're attacking me personally. Go away little person.

You get +1 internets. Want me to send a LOL cat your way too? U mad bro?

Elucid Ward, on 02 November 2011 - 06:38 PM, said:

Overall, you're coming across as a typical newschool ingrate, and I don't blame you for your attitudes, because everything is handed to you on a silver platter these days. But you are not right - skill can't be gifted, can't be handed and can't be bought. If you're piloting in game is so terribad, and your tactical abilities so lacking, that you can't figure out a way to counter someone who's rocking a boat Assault, then you probably should walk back to COD.

That's not insulting at all.

[Elucid Ward]

fearfactory, on 02 November 2011 - 06:44 PM, said:

You get +1 internets. Want me to send a LOL cat your way too? U mad bro?

That's not insulting at all.

'Coming across as' isn't stating that you actually are. And the usage of 'you' was more general, than specific to you personally. But I guess expecting people to read between the lines is a bit much on an internet forum.

[IS Wolf]

fearfactory, on 02 November 2011 - 06:30 PM, said:

Hell no. But why not give them better equipment to wipe the floor with us?

In a game of basketball, the acquired skills are what makes the difference.
And a pro is going to wipe the floor with an amateur.

However in a Battlemech match, it's going to be a mix between skill and machine.
Look at Solaris as a good example of that.

So, it's a given that someone who plays a lot is going to be ahead of the curve when it comes to someone coming to the game for the first time. It's the difference between a pro and an amateur.

No different from a College Player going to the NBA, it's going to take a bit before he manages to find his niche and with time, he'll be just as effective as the ones who initially beat the snot out of him. Did Michael Jordan win a championship in his first year? Nope, he didn't.

So if even a guy like Jordan cannot dominate that much, why should we?

[omegaclawe]

fearfactory, on 02 November 2011 - 05:53 PM, said:

It doesn't matter. How does that make you any better than the people who smacked you around? You basically joined them.



The problem with this is the amount of time people can afford to put into a game. I would prefer something that you can simply jump in and have the same ability to have the same capabilities/equipment as everyone else. People who spend a lot of time playing the game will eventually be able to abuse what you suggest to have in place by having stockpiles of good equipment. AND this is where customization becomes a problem. I won't be playing for hours upon hours and I'm sure there are others out there like me who wouldn't be able to do the same. If someone was beating me up constantly with a canon variant because the figured out how to use it well I would be OK with it. If someone was beating me up with an overpowered custom with equipment they played for hours upon hours to get while I don't have the same amount of time to pour into the game? Not fun.

This is a free-to-play game. It incentivizes purchases by offering them as a way to avoid the grind you'd get otherwise. The developers have already stated that there will be RPG-like advancement. You will never be on the same footing in such a game with someone who has played/paid more. That's by design. If you do not like it, well, you aren't the sort to get them much money, are you? Hardly a loss for them.

I hope PGI will be somewhat polite about it, but the underlying message is pretty much going to be "if you don't like it, go elsewhere". And you will have other places to go, too. MWLL, Mercs MP3, AT1:BT, etc. But you will not win that battle here.

[Mercurial]

I'd like to get away from the topic of in-game universe logic (whether non-omnimechs can be refitted and the like), and general analogies of current, modern day military vehicles and talk a little bit more about the gameplay implications. Two things specifically concern me about allowing too much modification, if not any modification at all, by talking a little about various experience in MW multiplayer.

There are two things that have always bothered me about custom loadouts in terms of a multiplayer game. the first and foremost is a fundamental in most game mechanics: First and foremost is the ability to assess the capabilities and weaknesses of a mech, which I believe is important to encouraging competitive gameplay and a higher skillset. If I see a Catapult, knowing that I'm going to be dealing with a Long Range, jump equipped Mech. If I run up against an Atlas, I understand that it excels in mid-range, close range combat monster with scads of armor but long range issues, or that an Awesome can do massive amounts of damage but has trouble with sustained fire. These are important elements, strengths and weaknesses that are vital to the development of skill and decision making in the game, and they all go out the window if we're allowed to outfit the mechs to nearly anything they want.

Some people may argue that the element of surprise--expecting a Catapult to be a long range Mech when it's say, swaped out it's LRM 20s for SRMs (Hell in some games you could turn it into a laser boat for no particular reason), but in the long one that only can lead two things: Either there will be optimized 'builds' that just get passed around that end up being the new status quo (which are also min-maxed and change the game dynamic) or no 'mech' will be trusted. We will have little more than class to vaguely guess at the weapons of whatever we're looking at, and gameplay will change to a matter of who-built what beforehand and pure reflex, which should have some part but honestly, shouldn't be everything in Mechwarrior.

Second, and this is a personal thing: I believe that it's entirely more interesting for a player to deal with both the strengths and limitations of their mech in a meaningful way. Removing say, a PPC for an Awesome for a few medium lasers is almost a no brainer--you can squeeze out similar damage at closer ranges for better sustainability at the cost of range, but you almost never fire all PPCs at range anyway because of heat issues. Being a good Awesome pilot would mean managing the risk and reward of great burst damage at varying ranges while minding heat. Being a good Atlas would mean a defensive player who learns to keep the reach of their enemy short for as long as possible. These kind of interesting developments can go out the window if players are allowed to tinker too much. That isn't all bad, but chances are most 'good' builds will become common knowledge, will breed out the limitations of mechs fairly quickly, and change some of the more interesting dynamics of the game.

TL;DR, there is interesting gameplay opportunity when Mechs have certain limitations that were baked into them by FASA and the various other contributors. The big problem and the question mark is, however, if you can't customize your battlemech, what are they going to do to keep people playing? That's the answer I'm curious about, but I do kind of hope we won't see the meta-game kind of devolve into a few cookie cutter mech builds that don't force the player to compensate for some shortcomings, which is the way I've seen most MW MP go.

[IS Wolf]

Mercurial, on 02 November 2011 - 10:11 PM, said:

First and foremost is the ability to assess the capabilities and weaknesses of a mech, which I believe is important to encouraging competitive gameplay and a higher skillset. If I see a Catapult, knowing that I'm going to be dealing with a Long Range, jump equipped Mech. If I run up against an Atlas, I understand that it excels in mid-range, close range combat monster with scads of armor but long range issues, or that an Awesome can do massive amounts of damage but has trouble with sustained fire. These are important elements, strengths and weaknesses that are vital to the development of skill and decision making in the game, and they all go out the window if we're allowed to outfit the mechs to nearly anything they want.

Just going by the Mech chassis can be a deadly mistake.

That Awesome, you're facing could be an AWS-8T, which does not have heat problems.
That Atlas may not be a short-mid range brawler, but a ranged specialist like the AS7-K or an AS7-RS.
And as for the Catapult, the personal mech of Jenny "Butterbee" Templeton was a modified CPLT-C1, with SRM6s as opposed to LRMs in the arms, so that would be a short to medium range striker unit instead. (Record Sheets: 3039 Unabridged, p. 225)

So even in the board game, you could never be sure what you'd be facing.

Making this effectively a non-argument.

Edited by IS-Wolf, 02 November 2011 - 10:59 PM.

[Mercurial]

IS-Wolf, on 02 November 2011 - 10:38 PM, said:

Just going by the Mech chassis can be a deadly mistake.

That Awesome, you're facing could be an AWS-8T, which does not have heat problems.
That Atlas may not be a short-mid range brawler, but a ranged specialist like the AS7-K or an AS7-RS.
And as for the Catapult, the personal mech of Jenny "Butterbee" Templeton was a modified CPLT-C1, with SRM6s as opposed to LRMs in the arms, so that would be a short to medium range striker unit instead. (Record Sheets: 3039 Unabridged, p. 225)

So even in the board game, you could never be sure what you'd be facing.

Making this is effectively a non-argument.

I could argue that was, in fact, a mistake on FASA's part, but in that case, it worked because we're talking about an eye-of-a-deity (really? That word's censored? Interesting). viewpoint strategy game with so many other complexities (many of which simply can't easily be built into a simulation style game) made such variables acceptable. But more to the point, such variations were at least something you could account for: Either it's loadout was this or this or this, it's a matter of identifying a weapon that gave away the particular variant. If you allow people to just make whatever you want, then you can't 'identify' anything. It's still an interesting mechanic even with variants, because assessing WHICH variant is still a neat gameplay mechanic that goes out the window if every player modifies the Mechs to the point where the chasis barely matters at all. It also allows for a metagame to 'bleed out' mech weaknesses. Which might be alright, as it changes the shift of the game slightly, I'm just not sure I like that shift.

Edited by Mercurial, 02 November 2011 - 10:44 PM.