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Limit battlemech customization.


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#241 Pht

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 04:01 PM

View PostElucid Ward, on 02 November 2011 - 12:12 AM, said:


Arbitrary limitation of a game's renowned customisation aspect. Hmmm... who else is doing that, and how many people aren't happy?


Mechwarrior 3 didn't do that, and the result was ugly. Besides which, the limitations are far from arbitrary - there are good reasons being offered for the limitations.

View PostKnight-errant, on 02 November 2011 - 02:58 AM, said:


Not being overly knowledgeable of MW lore, wouldn't weight vs power vs centre of balance be enough to guide customisation?


Actually, it seems like such a great idea until you try and get into the nuts and bolts of actually doing it, at which point it turns into a hundred-headed hydra that wants nothing more than to eat you alive with insane complexity.

#242 gregsolidus

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 04:18 PM

Customization is fun,retooling MW3s system is all they need to do.

#243 Mr T

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 05:42 PM

Im down with limited customization and time enforced cooldowns for modifications, taking longer the more you change, and of course still being restricted to a particular level keeping the different mechs worth having as has been mentioned. Also including the worth to Omni Mechs and having less cooldowns/more options.

One thing I want to bring up, if it hasn't yet, is whether people should be able to spend through microtransactions to speed this up somehow, say like hiring more techs for that refit. Personally, I may not spend real money or c-bills or whatever system used with MTs to speed this up myself, however it wouldn't really bother me for other people to do so, as it simply serves the impatient while allowing an avenue for the game to make revenue.

#244 Captain Hat

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 04:14 AM

View PostCifu, on 04 November 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

And do not forget, the original tabletop game are not count in many respect to become a real action game or simulator. Just think it over: why do you put a Machine Gun in a 'Mech, when the game do not have infantry of any kind? Too useless in Mech-to-Mech combat (well, exception in the light mech's battle), so you can put anything else there, which is more usefull (armour, heat sink, etc.).

There walks a man who has never stacked a Daishi with as many Clan MGs as will fit onto the chassis, removed all the heat sinks, beefed up the engine and stacked it with armour before walking into a Solaris match.

I wouldn't necessarily try it online, but in Solaris or on a network it's freaking hilarious.

Anyway, yeah, customisation- mostly a bad thing for a multiplayer game actually, because it basically turns your mech into a hitbox/engine combo that you mount things on: Mechs lose their distinctiveness, become coathangers for guns with varying degrees of effectiveness dependant entirely on what they're shaped like and what engine they have.

Thus, limitations are absolutely necessary. Not even optional. Whether those are by type, cost, time or "these are the specific guns that this mount will take" is entirely up to the game makers. Might actually be interesting to see that last option, especially if we get something that follows the background a little more closely and actually makes a distinction- however slight- between the manufacturing quality achieved by the various engineering firms across the Inner Sphere.

#245 gregsolidus

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 06:37 AM

Mechs were never meant to be distinctive,if they were variants wouldn't exist.

#246 Captain Hat

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 06:57 AM

I want the name and number of your dealer. Now.

#247 Cake Bandit

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 07:35 AM

View Postgregsolidus, on 07 November 2011 - 04:18 PM, said:

Customization is fun,retooling MW3s system is all they need to do.


I feel like a little blending between 3 and 4 is going to get them a pretty good end product if they look back to their game history. 3 was really open ended, but 4 was easy enough to approach and understand, which is definitely something you want when trying to get people to try out your game.

#248 Colddawg

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 08:08 AM

Agree, limited customization so we don't get 'Mechs out there that are missile boating on a 'Mech that is not supposed to be a support 'Mech like the Mad Dog or Longbow, nor laser boating a 'Mech that is not a Nova Cat, Black Knight, or Awesome.

#249 Fulcrum

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 01:47 PM

Now, I've scanned many of these posts and have seen the words 'Expensive' and 'Time' repeated over and over again.

Cost? Fine. Want to spend money to customise your Mech? Even better.

However:
'Waiting' is not a fun game mechanic.

It never has been. It never will be, nor can I imagine how it could possibly be spun into being anything but an annoyance, particularly if you have a limited stable of Mechs to play from.

I can also understand the concern of having completely custom, points-optimized mechs....

My solution might have already been discussed elsewhere, but limiting the optimization options by slot, weight and type would seem to make the most sense.

For instance:
Replacing a SRM6 with a Streak-SRM4 (Weight similar, size(crits) similar, power requirements similar, heat within 2 points, etc) would make sense since there are many degrees of similarity.

Replacing an AC5 with an ERPPC (Weight similiar, size(crits) similar... however, the ERPPC's energy requirements are off the scale and the heat generation is 15x more than an AC5's.), should rightly be difficult(expensive) or impossible due to the vast differences in how the weapon system would have to be installed in the chassis, heat vented, power provided and so forth.

Could have the whole price set on levels of similarity between existing and new weapon systems:

Quote

Similar type, similar weight, similar heat, similar power requirements, similar crits = Weapon Base price x1 (Swapping a Small Laser for an ER Small Laser, or SRM streaks for standard SRM's)

1 dissimilarity = Weapon base price x1.5 (Ex: Swapping a PPC for an ER PPC (heat increase))
2 dissimilarities = Weapon base price x3 (Ex: Swapping a LRM20 with 3 SRM6 (Number, heat))
3 dissimilarities = Weapon base price x6 (Ex: Swapping an AC5 with a PPC (Weapon type, heat))
4 dissimilarities = Weapon base price x12 (Ex: Swapping a PPC for 3 Pulse Med (Type, number, heat, crits))
More = Impossible?



Granted, it'd be a lot more work to set all the variant weapons for all the mechs, but I think it'd be pretty worth it in the end.

#250 gregsolidus

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 02:17 PM

View PostColddawg, on 08 November 2011 - 08:08 AM, said:

Agree, limited customization so we don't get 'Mechs out there that are missile boating on a 'Mech that is not supposed to be a support 'Mech like the Mad Dog or Longbow, nor laser boating a 'Mech that is not a Nova Cat, Black Knight, or Awesome.

Go here
http://www.sarna.net...at_(BattleMech)

Now take a good look of the variants in comparison to the prime.Do you see how it isn't shoehorned into roles and actually becomes a support mech?Just about all mechs shift roles omni or not.

#251 Halfinax

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 03:28 PM

View Postgregsolidus, on 08 November 2011 - 02:17 PM, said:

Go here
http://www.sarna.net...at_(BattleMech)

Now take a good look of the variants in comparison to the prime.Do you see how it isn't shoehorned into roles and actually becomes a support mech?Just about all mechs shift roles omni or not.


Yes, Omnis are designed as multi role fighters. No one argued that. Now look at something like the Catapult. All variants are long range, and the only variants that don't have missiles of some form or another are either a) field refit, :) using long range direct fire weapons in their stead.

I don't see why we can't just have mechs + variants instead of all the boating that will occur even if something akin to the MW4 customization is used.

As to your earlier statement of "Mechs were never meant to be distinctive,if they were variants wouldn't exist."

LOL

Yep that's accurate that the Maurader wasn't designed as a command mech, the Atlas wasn't designed as a front line fighter and damage sponge, the Light Firestarter wasn't designed as anti infantry. Oh wait no it's the other thing....They were, and in most cases all of their roles reflect that.

Most variants were made of necessity and not because it was so **** convenient to do so.

#252 Rendall

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 04:11 PM

I posted this in mechlab, and am reposting it here, as I think it applies.


I truly believe that, flawed though it might be, the limited retrofitting and modification that MW4M (mektek modified) was the best way to keep the mechs both honest to thier original roles and to prevent all mechs from simply mounting anything and everything. Consider this. there are a LOT of mechs in the universe. each mech was designed for a purpose, or role. A Raven has a powerful electronics package and a certain weapons load out, at 35 tons, is a light mech, has a specific engine, size, top speed, equipment, and so on. By the rules of CBT TT game's books, whats to keep someone from modifying any other 35 ton mech to perform in the same manner as that Raven? (not quite in the provided timeline of this game, maybe, but the example holds). by allowing complete refits, any mech can become any other mech, It kind of kills the reason for the Mech Variety. Two Examples: The Jenner and the Hollander. both 35 ton mechs. both have VERY different roles. without limited customization, that Jenner could become a Hollander, without the name, and Vice versa. The only exception to limited modification, and even this should be limited in some manners as well, is Omnimechs. Omnimechs were designed with quick change pod space (prepared weapon pods) that allow for any weapon system to be fixed in and quickly brought to speed far quicker than standard mech refits. A Catapult will not be mounting cannons on its arms, without a massive change in its arms (which I am aware there is a version that does exactly that, in which case the same would be true in reverse). Point is, without limited the amount of customization of a mech, you lose the purpose of having variety. all other considerations beside the point, IE price to change parts, and so on. This been said, I do think that Things like Jump jets, Engine changes, and even heat sink changes (from standard to double, or the reverse), should be allowed, within the normal TT rules.
On a side note here, there should also be a battlemech market for parts, weapons, electronics like ECM and BAP, so on. in fact, in another post, I suggested possibly 3 different shops, maybe with sub categories of shops within those main categories. a Main shop, where parts can be found for a price, availablilty depends on location and maybe even mech rank or skill level, or even which house area you are in, who carries parts that are in good working condition and are legitimate. Then the Black market, with the same considerations, though maybe with some slight differences, such as infamy level, or other factors, which carry parts of more exotic purpose, or tech level, of questionable quality and considerably higher prices. And last, the Refurbished/used market, where parts are sold, for cut rate prices, but more often than not, while able to function are likely damaged and require repair before the part can be mounted, and carries mainly more common parts that can be found.
Though not a completely thought idea, more of a brain storm, a mix of Mechwarrior 3 and Mechwarrior 4's mech bays and modification system might be the best compromise for everyone's tastes.

And before people start jumping on me for customization preferences, I want to site the technical readouts, almost all of them, that provide alternative loadouts for mechs, and sometimes go very drastic in thier changes, to the point of changing engine size and type, and also heat sinks type, and number, as well as the numerous mentions in those readouts about field modifications.

#253 gregsolidus

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 04:44 PM

View Posthalfinax, on 08 November 2011 - 03:28 PM, said:


Yes, Omnis are designed as multi role fighters. No one argued that. Now look at something like the Catapult. All variants are long range, and the only variants that don't have missiles of some form or another are either a) field refit, :) using long range direct fire weapons in their stead.

I don't see why we can't just have mechs + variants instead of all the boating that will occur even if something akin to the MW4 customization is used.

As to your earlier statement of "Mechs were never meant to be distinctive,if they were variants wouldn't exist."

LOL

Yep that's accurate that the Maurader wasn't designed as a command mech, the Atlas wasn't designed as a front line fighter and damage sponge, the Light Firestarter wasn't designed as anti infantry. Oh wait no it's the other thing....They were, and in most cases all of their roles reflect that.

Most variants were made of necessity and not because it was so **** convenient to do so.


At a hundred tons its hard for the Atlas to not soak up damage and the Firestater shifts from being an infantry hunter to a scout to a mech hunter from the periphery.
In short, while the general idea of what they're supposed to do generally doesn't change what they do it with does meaning they shouldn't be constructively defined as laser focused,or in the Catapults case a missile boat.

Edited by gregsolidus, 08 November 2011 - 04:46 PM.


#254 Damocles

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 04:47 PM

How could the Catapult be classed as anything other than a missile boat unless it is a K2 variant?
Imo it just wouldn't be a Catapult anymore.

#255 Nebfer

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 05:00 PM

Well one thing we can do to limit extreme customization is this.

You the play will start out with the ability to do field refits. Basically allowing one to swap out Medium lasers for ER Medium lasers or a PPC for a trio of medium lasers (swap out a weapon for equal or fewer crits). You however can not change out engines, myomers, heat sinks, armor or electronics.
Basically you can do one of two things

swap out a weapon for a different type in the same class (Medium lasers can only fit in medium class weapons be it pulse or ER)
and swap out weapons of a different type that are of an equal or small size (swapping out a PPC for a large laser).
This is the basic ability all players will have at the start.

Later on they gain access to more extensive field depot level of customization that allows them to...
Change out the armor type
Add or remove armor
install weapons that where bigger than the originals
install weapons where none where before
change ammo amounts
change heat sink types and amounts
move items around
change an engine rating (but not type)
Add in electronics

Lastly access to factory level refits should be either available to thoughs part of a "guild" or though massive expenditures of in game funds (representing the time to ship it to the factory and paying for the refit to be done and scheduling with a busy factory).
These refits allow for...
altering the mechs internals
changing out the mechs engine type
adding in case
changing the gyro type
changing the cockpit type
or improving the quality of the mech

Note the Gyro and cockpit types only come into play post 3067 with newer technology's as such are not available in "3050"...

Though the details can be fiddled with.

#256 TheRulesLawyer

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 11:52 AM

View PostCaptain Hat, on 08 November 2011 - 04:14 AM, said:

There walks a man who has never stacked a Daishi with as many Clan MGs as will fit onto the chassis, removed all the heat sinks, beefed up the engine and stacked it with armour before walking into a Solaris match.

I wouldn't necessarily try it online, but in Solaris or on a network it's freaking hilarious.



Also see the completely canon Piranha mech. Coincidentally the devs name....

#257 Pht

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 06:15 PM

View Postgregsolidus, on 08 November 2011 - 06:37 AM, said:

Mechs were never meant to be distinctive,if they were variants wouldn't exist.


You have a rather small view of what makes a 'Mech, I suspect. They aren't just what they carry - their basic chassis design alone lends them a large amount of disctinctiveness - and the variants were made either to solve some distinctive quirk of the first design, or they were made because someone looked at the basic design and said "Hey, that's a worthwhile setup - I bet it would be good at (something else)."

View PostRendall, on 08 November 2011 - 04:11 PM, said:

I truly believe that, flawed though it might be, the limited retrofitting and modification that MW4M (mektek modified) was the best way to keep the mechs both honest to thier original roles and to prevent all mechs from simply mounting anything and everything.


The MW4 hardpoint idea is decent, but the way it was implemented, even in the mods (and they're a marked improvement!), is a mess - it's all but impossible to make a "base chassis" with hardpoints that will allow for all the stock variants of a mech without having to use mw4 "omni" slots in nearly every chassis; their sizes are also arbitrary because they left behind the (well known and documented) setup from the parent system.

View PostNebfer, on 08 November 2011 - 05:00 PM, said:

Well one thing we can do to limit extreme customization is this.

You the play will start out with the ability to do field refits. Basically allowing one to swap out Medium lasers for ER Medium lasers or a PPC for a trio of medium lasers (swap out a weapon for equal or fewer crits). You however can not change out engines, myomers, heat sinks, armor or electronics.
Basically you can do one of two things

swap out a weapon for a different type in the same class (Medium lasers can only fit in medium class weapons be it pulse or ER)
and swap out weapons of a different type that are of an equal or small size (swapping out a PPC for a large laser).
This is the basic ability all players will have at the start.


Hey, Nebfer, Good to see you man!

Have you seen my post here: http://mwomercs.com/...ndpost__p__5355 ?

I'm curious what you think - we seem to be somewhat in the same vein.

Speaking of which, Rendall might find it interesting too.

#258 Woodstock

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 04:13 AM

There should be two stages to customisation.

1) Omni Mechs
2) Standard Mechs

Omni mechs should be fully customisable.

Standard should be limited to standard variants.

#259 Captain Hat

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 04:45 AM

One way to allow a degree of customisation without going overboard with it would be to allow pilots to pick sections from different canon loadouts- within weight and other limits of course- so that you could, for example, replace one of the arms on a Rifleman with an AC/10 without completing the refit and replacing the other arm as well.

This makes more sense to me than allowing complete reconfiguration of non-Omni Battlemechs from a canon and game balance perspective, while still allowing users some degree of freedom in customising their rides.

#260 wanderer

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 04:00 PM

View Postgregsolidus, on 07 November 2011 - 04:18 PM, said:

Customization is fun,retooling MW3s system is all they need to do.


Aka infinite Shadowcats? No, thank you.

Customs should be just that- expensive, a pain in the **** to replace, and something that takes time and effort to do so. I'd be all for not allowing anything past a Class B refit without serious investment of game-cash and time...and if the 'Mech goes boom, having to re-invest.

Meanwhile, standard models and variants are much more easily had and cheaper by far. If nothing else, that'll let the ones really hard up for their custom death machine do it, but the folks willing to deal with the standard stuff won't be scraping to the last C-bill to get it. Arguably, serious mods should cost more than the 'Mech did to begin with.





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