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This Game Been Nothing But Gauss And Ppc Fest


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#221 KhanCipher

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:28 PM

View PostRoland, on 17 April 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

When I am killed through my CT cleanly, it means that I made a terrible mistake and played like a fool (and it happens). But it was generally MY fault...


so if someone is twisting, and i only shoot when i have a direct shot to the CT, i get to say they were playing like a fool?

#222 aniviron

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:30 PM

View PostRoland, on 17 April 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

Just so ya know, that mech is nowhere near "already dead".

You have ALL of your armor, basically.

Sure, if you just waddle towards the enemy like an *****, staring directly at him, then you'll probably die in a few more hits... but that's why you're supposed to actually turn and twist your mech to make them hit the good panels.


It's a good theory, but there are a few problems with it. Part of it is the fault of the mech I'm in- it's an awesome, so there's really no good way to avoid getting that massive ct blown away. Part of it is that in order to fire lasers at someone, I actually have to look at them and then keep looking at them, instead of having my profile turned to the side the whole time.

I'll put it to you this way: if, in that situation, I ran into a jenner, I would be dead. No question. He would see that ct and kill me in two, three alphas tops. There's really no way to avoid it- should I be outturning him too?

#223 Taemien

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:34 PM

View PostZyllos, on 17 April 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:


Actually, I am not sure where I said I get "cored" outright. But I do have the same complaint that those who do get cored have.

So, when someone is doing pin-point damage against you, do you torso twist away or just take it? Because your statement seems to insinuate that you just take it or else you would have some DPS decrease due to having mixed weaponry that you can not pin-point all the damage onto a single point.

I do agree with you, you deal zero damage when dead. But I really don't think that was a point of argument.

I don't think it's the fact that my build can/can't take on boats is the argument here. Honestly, what build could not take on a boat? I guess maybe all Machine Guns, but that should be about it.

But the argument was never against boating, it's against weapon convergence that is pin-point accurate across all locations.


As I said, convergence in MechWarrior hasn't changed in the last 18 years since MW2 came out (I don't think MW1 had convergence, you just looked at the mech you wanted to hit, but its not part of this since it had no multiplayer). I doubt they would change it now. I mean the idea of giving less than pinpoint accuracy is done in FPS, but when you use the main cannons on tanks, they pinpoint like like mechs do here, at least till the round drops, but then again it wouldn't make sense to have anything but ACs have drop (which they do).

Pilots need many things to be successful, and all of these will help them against pinpoint convergence:

Speed - The speed you are moving relative to the firer makes a big difference. If you're running straight at them or away, you have 0 speed and are nearly as easy to hit as a stationary mech.

Unpredictability - Running straight in one direction will make you an easy target to some of the more seasoned pilots. HSR is in and now you can be hit while running perpendicular to the firer. Vary your speed and run in an unpredictable route. This goes for Assault mechs too. Just because you're not as fast as a light mech doesn't mean you can't do this.

Cover - This is a no brainer, hugging close to a building means even jump snipers can't hit you. All maps have means of getting close to your target or coming from another direction. Some are harder than others, but that is part of the game.

Situational Awareness - Biggest one. If you crest a hill and get popped. You got outplayed. its your responsibility to know where the enemy is and what they have. This is harder as a solo player since you won't have a dedicated scout probably, but nothing is going to be easy when you solo.

These all worked against Lasers in HSR phase one. I'm sure they will work now, probably even better since ballistic weapons still need to be lead. Thats a fact that is Constantly ignored in these discussions. PPCs, ACs, Gauss, ect need to be lead unlike lasers. Lasers you can mouse over the target and fire. The other weapons you have to aim ahead.

But this is how I know some of you aren't moving when you get mowed down. You say you got pinpointed. Trying moving next time. Make the firer use skill to hit you instead. And always be mindful of your surroundings. Fighting a single mech in a circle of death invites you to get sniped from afar.

#224 Roland

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:35 PM

View PostKhanCipher, on 17 April 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:


so if someone is twisting, and i only shoot when i have a direct shot to the CT, i get to say they were playing like a fool?

Heh, ya.. on some level... if they're cored hard, and you're shooting at them, then they really shouldn't face you (unless you are also cored hard).

When I die through only a single panel, it means I screwed up.. I didn't use my mech effectively. Being able to soak damage is an important skill.

And again, like I said.. It does happen to me. But it's because I screwed up.

#225 LordBraxton

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:36 PM

View PostRoland, on 17 April 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

Just so ya know, that mech is nowhere near "already dead".

You have ALL of your armor, basically.

Sure, if you just waddle towards the enemy like an *****, staring directly at him, then you'll probably die in a few more hits... but that's why you're supposed to actually turn and twist your mech to make them hit the good panels.


View PostRoland, on 17 April 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

Just so ya know, that mech is nowhere near "already dead".

You have ALL of your armor, basically.

Sure, if you just waddle towards the enemy like an *****, staring directly at him, then you'll probably die in a few more hits... but that's why you're supposed to actually turn and twist your mech to make them hit the good panels.


You are right he has a chance to get 2 shots off.

each time he shoots he will receive an alpha to his fat CT

so after 2 shots he is dead, 1 if someone hits his head.

#226 Hellcat420

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:39 PM

the problem is not the weapons, its the arena match play style of the game. battletech was not made to work like that.

#227 SilverMalachite

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:52 PM

stop being a hero and try team work.
new patch has fixed lag aiming issue.

#228 TygerLily

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:53 PM

I read a good portion of the thread but not all, forgive if I double post something...

Maybe PPC's should be the same crit space and projectile speed as AC/10s? Less room to boat and/or balance for heat...and I'm not opposed to the current AC/2 projectile speed but since they are similar weapons, maybe bring them more in line with each other.

#229 Degalus

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:00 PM

Srly ... We had a new patch with balistic hsr and now comes the QQ because everyone will Test it?? Next QQ will be the "buhu highlanderwarrior online" ... Every time something new comes in, everybody try it! Whats the Problem? I brawl with my trible uac5 Muro or my 5x med laser 1xac20 phract like before the patch.
Its only because now everyone can hit like someone with a 40 or better ping player and they enjoy it.
Wait some days and it will get back to normal lvl.

#230 Kumakichi

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:08 PM

View PostKaiser R Metzger, on 16 April 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:


Brawl should be (but not exclusive) the main portion of the game


Originally the idea was for MWO to be mostly brawler style of gameplay. The game evolves and at different times certain weapons are dominant. Call it broken or call it whatever. Players adapt usually even if they dont like the current balance. The game will keep evolving.

#231 Davers

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:18 PM

View PostKoreanese, on 17 April 2013 - 03:39 AM, said:

lol. you should try using simple tactics + teamwork. anyone that has played with me and dv8 knows this. alphas strikers are weak in brawling. that is a fact. they simply do not have enough heat tolerence to have that continous fire. its not impossible to beat alpha strikers

This has been my experience as well. I haven't had any problem closing in my Atlas-D. After about 2 alpha strikes the Highlander is looking for a way to escape because he is going to shut down, while I am just getting started.

#232 Mesosaurus

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:49 PM

View PostDavers, on 17 April 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

This has been my experience as well. I haven't had any problem closing in my Atlas-D. After about 2 alpha strikes the Highlander is looking for a way to escape because he is going to shut down, while I am just getting started.


Only happens once in a blue moon though. When I pug alone, my entire team is just fire support boats. If I go close up on anything It be when the enemy push in and that is like 5 minutes in the game. Am I expected to wait in till one team gets bored?

#233 aniviron

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 09:40 PM

View PostTygerLily, on 17 April 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

I read a good portion of the thread but not all, forgive if I double post something...

Maybe PPC's should be the same crit space and projectile speed as AC/10s? Less room to boat and/or balance for heat...and I'm not opposed to the current AC/2 projectile speed but since they are similar weapons, maybe bring them more in line with each other.


It's not a bad idea, but PGI is not going to change crit spaces because they don't want to break any stock TT loadouts. Making the PPC take more room might make some loadouts impossible, so they won't do it.

View PostMesosaurus, on 17 April 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:


Only happens once in a blue moon though. When I pug alone, my entire team is just fire support boats. If I go close up on anything It be when the enemy push in and that is like 5 minutes in the game. Am I expected to wait in till one team gets bored?


Pretty much have the same experience here. Yes, if I can catch a sniper while they're vulnerable, I can usually take them. But pushing alone is not a realistic option, and with both teams similarly loaded out, nobody pushes with you. It works great if you're got a premade to roll with, I see it happen often enough, but I don't have a group, so it's a non-starter for me.

#234 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:22 PM

View PostDavers, on 17 April 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

This has been my experience as well. I haven't had any problem closing in my Atlas-D. After about 2 alpha strikes the Highlander is looking for a way to escape because he is going to shut down, while I am just getting started.

That's exactly the big deal with those pop tarts and PPC Snipers.

They are not heat efficient at all. They have no chance of sustaining their firepower. And that should point out to people that the problem is not really heat dissipation ,but heat capacity. Due to the high heat capacity in the game, it is possible to bring a lot of instant firepower - no hope of sustaining it, but if you reach a certain damage threshold, it doesn't matter. If you can alpha twice and deliver enough damage to destroy or critically damage a hit location, alpha strikes are attractive even if you need to look for a safe hiding and cooling spot afterwards. Combine this with jump jets, and you have a pretty solid alpha-strike focused builds.

Lower the heat capacity of mechs, and people cannot reach this damage threshold anymore. At least not with any of the existing mechs. We might have to talk again if we ever get a mech that can carry more than 3 Gauss Rifles (3 Gauss Rifles are "only" an Alpha of 45, that should still be reasonably manageable).

Of course, you could also fix this by removing/changing convergence. Then a 6 PPC alpha strike is 10 damage to up to 6 different hit locations, not 60 damagetot one location.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 17 April 2013 - 10:24 PM.


#235 TOGSolid

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:35 PM

Quote

Of course, you could also fix this by removing/changing convergence. Then a 6 PPC alpha strike is 10 damage to up to 6 different hit locations, not 60 damagetot one location.

Just change it so it takes longer for weapons to converge because right now it's damn near instantaneous. If pilots needed to wait a second or two before getting a perfect shot then it'll solve a lot of issues, from the retardation of snipers quickly poking their heads out, letting a volley rip, and then hiding to all of the poptards running around. The best part is, is that it's a system that's already in the game.

#236 Tahribator

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:46 PM

View Postaniviron, on 17 April 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:


It's not a bad idea, but PGI is not going to change crit spaces because they don't want to break any stock TT loadouts. Making the PPC take more room might make some loadouts impossible, so they won't do it.



I wonder which ones do you think will be impossible? Every standart loadout has only one PPC per torso/part, so increasing crit space won't affect them at all. It will only make boating ridiculous amounts impossible.

#237 Mister Haha

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:47 PM

View PostRiceyFighter, on 16 April 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

The entire game has become nothing but highlanders playing with gauss and PPCs. Stalkers boating PPCs, and Cataphracts with gauss and PPCs.For brawler pilots it been absolute hell for us. Can't even get to fight without being blown up left and right trying to move into position and into cover.


No no. You have it all wrong.

Stalkers are bringing LLs just as often. ;)

#238 KhanCipher

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 12:09 AM

View PostRoland, on 17 April 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

When I die through only a single panel, it means I screwed up.. I didn't use my mech effectively. Being able to soak damage is an important skill.


i hate to break it to you, the aim skill beats the soak damage skill all the way

#239 Inkarnus

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 03:56 AM

make it like that

+and fine B)

#240 zorak ramone

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 06:43 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 17 April 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

Lower the heat capacity of mechs, and people cannot reach this damage threshold anymore. At least not with any of the existing mechs. We might have to talk again if we ever get a mech that can carry more than 3 Gauss Rifles (3 Gauss Rifles are "only" an Alpha of 45, that should still be reasonably manageable).


You're right, of course. You should also add the part where in addition, you also double heat draining to make energy weapons playable and reward using heat sinks. You should really just link that thread you made a while ago.

An alternative would be to keep heat capacity where it is, but start adding real penalties for overheating. Current heat capacity is 30+X, where X=(DHS*1.4+Engine DHS*2). If we were following battletech, then once your heat got over X+4, you'd start slowing down and targeting convergence would be messed up. A few more points than that, and you're slowing down even more and risking ammo explosions and shutdowns. In a mech that is only using engine DHS, X = 20 = 40% on the heat scale. More than one alpha from a standard 4xPPC sniper and you're deep in the danger zone.





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