28 replies to this topic

[Belorion]

Personal choice aside, I it would be nice to have a benefit to bringing an Awesome over an Atlas, or a Flea over a Jenner.

Its one of the reasons I advocate for a total drop weight match up instead of a per class matching.

Even matching up per weight slot would be better than just the class, but I think this limits diversification of drops. If you match total weight then you can have a greater variety of mechs on the drop as long as they still total out.

Is this how the new weight matching will be or is it still just medium to medium?

[AnnoyingCat]

But an assault is an assault, a light is a light

[Belorion]

AnnoyingCat, on 17 April 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

But an assault is an assault, a light is a light

But a Cicada is not a Centurian.

My way a Jenner and a Cat could be matched against a Hunchback and a Centurion.

[Multitallented]

Sorry I can't hear you over the sound of my PPCs and Jump Jets. BTW, did you see that Jenner I just 1 shot?

[Roadbeer]

See, I just can't wrap my brain around this argument.

When I'm dropping with a group, we bring what we're best at, not what the metamech is. I see a lot of guys running Jenners, Cicadas, etc... I knew one guy who'd even bring a Dragon, he was often mocked for it, but you couldn't argue the results he'd have.

[Joseph Mallan]

Well an Awesome can get to a Higher speed than an Atlas. so if you want a bit more maneuverability in your assault you want a lighter chassis.

[Gregore]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 April 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Well an Awesome can get to a Higher speed than an Atlas. so if you want a bit more maneuverability in your assault you want a lighter chassis.

a Couple of awesomes can, 1 hero and the 9m.

The rest are capped at 60 something or other. Just like an Atlas. maybe 1 or 2 kph difference.

[Shumabot]

Roadbeer, on 17 April 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

See, I just can't wrap my brain around this argument.

When I'm dropping with a group, we bring what we're best at, not what the metamech is. I see a lot of guys running Jenners, Cicadas, etc... I knew one guy who'd even bring a Dragon, he was often mocked for it, but you couldn't argue the results he'd have.

You also drop at the lowest ELOs and your awesome/dragon funtime can't be bothered with things like "competitive balance" or "skill".

Edited by Shumabot, 17 April 2013 - 08:37 AM.

[Shumabot]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 April 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Well an Awesome can get to a Higher speed than an Atlas. so if you want a bit more maneuverability in your assault you want a lighter chassis.

If you want that you play a heavy. The awesome is slower and worse at combat that jagers/cats/phracts.

[Ph30nix]

saddly how the game is currently implemented as long as your mech can hit the speed of the weight class there is no point in bringing anything lighter (except personal preference or possibly loadout)

i mean a commando is 25 tons yet is slower then the 35 tonners? which would be fine if they suffered having lower FP for it but they dont.

which you do have to factor in the tech in that case as well and in case of my fav commando vs a raven or jenner or even cicada i can do just fine 1 on 1 (excluding streaks)

but i really have a feeling that the Flea is going to be a worthless mech in almost every case, it MIGHT find a niche once CW is up and running but even then im sure it will be the mech that collects dust.

[Loler skates]

Belorion, on 17 April 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

Personal choice aside, I it would be nice to have a benefit to bringing an Awesome over an Atlas, or a Flea over a Jenner.

Its one of the reasons I advocate for a total drop weight match up instead of a per class matching.

Even matching up per weight slot would be better than just the class, but I think this limits diversification of drops. If you match total weight then you can have a greater variety of mechs on the drop as long as they still total out.

Is this how the new weight matching will be or is it still just medium to medium?

Simple thing to make taking lightest mech in a class more desirable.

Make the lighter mech in a class faster. Simply put a 5% modifier for its speed and turn rates it wont be huge but should be enough to make their lack of tonnes not so much of a gimpage.

[Devin Takkar]

But...there is no class matching anymore. For quite a while now.
The only change with Match Making Phase 4 is that the match maker will be trying to make games with a zero difference in total weight. Before that change, total weight was and is taken into account, but similar Elos were more important than total weight.
So...go on, take that Awesome for a spin. Everybody else is doing it already.

[MaddMaxx]

Aren't they going to start weight balancing Lances/Teams? When that happens take whatever you want. The MM will add a similar weight to the other side, unlike now.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shumabot, on 17 April 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

If you want that you play a heavy. The awesome is slower and worse at combat that jagers/cats/phracts.

But they are not assaults. Sure you can get almost as good armor and weapons on a solid Heavy, but it isn't an assault. The difference is slim a best but still there.

Gregore, on 17 April 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

a Couple of awesomes can, 1 hero and the 9m.

The rest are capped at 60 something or other. Just like an Atlas. maybe 1 or 2 kph difference.

We will have more mechs as the game evolves... for now you are correct. The Zues will break that mold also being a 4w/6r Assault Mech.

[Shumabot]

Quote

But they are not assaults. Sure you can get almost as good armor and weapons on a solid Heavy, but it isn't anassault. The difference is slim a best but still there.

If the difference is a word and nothing else that's not a very good difference. Also, you can get better armor and weapons since the awesome has to sacrifice so much for engine weight to reach the same speed. This is the Jenner/Cicada problem. A speed maxed cicada is an objectively worse Jenner due to engine weight and hitboxes. It's both less survivable and less dangerous.

[Belorion]

Roadbeer, on 17 April 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

See, I just can't wrap my brain around this argument.

When I'm dropping with a group, we bring what we're best at, not what the metamech is. I see a lot of guys running Jenners, Cicadas, etc... I knew one guy who'd even bring a Dragon, he was often mocked for it, but you couldn't argue the results he'd have.

Which is as it should be in my opinion, but they seem bent on doing weight matching, and if they are going to do that I would rather see something like what I proposed.

MaddMaxx, on 17 April 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

Aren't they going to start weight balancing Lances/Teams? When that happens take whatever you want. The MM will add a similar weight to the other side, unlike now.

Which is the very thing that I am talking counter point to. Rather than match up each of the classes precisely, total weight matching gives a reason to bring lighter mechs, and provides greater diversity in the drop.

On their side it will also probably make it easier to match teams.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shumabot, on 17 April 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

If the difference is a word and nothing else that's not a very good difference. Also, you can get better armor and weapons since the awesome has to sacrifice so much for engine weight to reach the same speed. This is the Jenner/Cicada problem. A speed maxed cicada is an objectively worse Jenner due to engine weight and hitboxes. It's both less survivable and less dangerous.

The difference isn't just a word, its 5 more tons.

75 tons isn't an assault, it is a Heavy, can a well built heavy challenge or be better than an assault? Sure, But then if the player wants an assault and not a heavy the distinction is moot. I can use a Stalker, I can equip a Stalker exactly like my Battlemaster... but it's still a Stalker. All the difference in the world if I want a Battlemaster.

[Shumabot]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 April 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

The difference isn't just a word, its 5 more tons.

75 tons isn't an assault, it is a Heavy, can a well built heavy challenge or be better than an assault? Sure, But then if the player wants an assault and not a heavy the distinction is moot. I can use a Stalker, I can equip a Stalker exactly like my Battlemaster... but it's still a Stalker. All the difference in the world if I want a Battlemaster.

And you lose that 5 tons in engine weight to reach the same speed. You end up effectively lighter (but larger and easier to shoot). All the difference in the world to you is in your head. We're not there. The objective differences are a loss in performance for the same spec.

Edited by Shumabot, 17 April 2013 - 10:03 AM.

[Colin Thrase]

I ignore mech class. I made a spreadsheet showing the remaining tons for weapons & armor by cross-referencing mech tonnage with desired movement rate (based on the original game rules where the engine rating was a multiple of the mech's tonnage). So rather than saying "I want a heavy mech" and trying to pick the top of the heavy class, I say "I want a mech with a movement rate of XX" and consult the spreadsheet.

If you're going to try this method, you'll actually want 2 sheets (one for standard and one for XL engines).

I think you'll be surprised at the results you get. There are certain speeds at which a Dragon gives you the most available space for weapons & armor, and since you're going at the speed normally used by lighter mechs, you can mount less armor accordingly, because you'll be harder to hit at that speed. You're not as fast as a Jenner or Commando, but you're fast enough that they don't just circle you while you get shot in the back - often they'll even run away. And you're still able to hold your own against mechs that are both lighter & slower (like the centurion or hunchback).

I recorded a match where I'm using a DRG-FANG with decent speed (granted it's a hero mech, but you can use a standard version with the same loadout). This doesn't represent a typical match outcome in a Dragon, but proves you can still play well with the lower-end of the heavy class.

CT

[Shumabot]

Does the spreadsheet incorporate the fact that a dragon is six times the size on screen as a commando, and is thus massively easier to shoot? That's the primary problem with down-armoring and up-engining heavier mechs. They can't shrink heir hitboxes, so even if you make all other things equal, an awesome is still much easier to shoot than a jager or cataphract.

Edited by Shumabot, 17 April 2013 - 10:33 AM.