89 replies to this topic

[Varnas]

SHUT THE **** UP SPONGEBOB!!

We need it, we really need it.

[Sephlock]

Odins Fist, on 17 April 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

F.Y.I., I have "NOT" seen a Small-Laser used in combat in months, and I can't remember the last time I saw a Small-Laser on anything, not to mention Small Pulse-Lasers...

This. I hope they are looking at the data.

[Sybreed]

YES.

And that post proves that PGI did NOT envisioned the long term impacts of their hardpoint system.

And let's be honest here, when we saw it in CB, we all thought it felt a bit forced and done at the last second.

The way people are abusing the hardpoint system right now just shows that it isn't what MWO needs. People need to pick a mech for the role they want, not the other way around. I'm sick of ER PPC + Gauss poptards (yes, poptards), I'm sick of 6 PPC or 6 LL stalkers, sick of 100 LRMs firing Stalkers or Awesomes. These shouldn't exist. There shouldn't be a Centurion with a huge gun on its right arm if there is actually nothing there because it's only using his Missile harpdoints. The Raven using a Gauss Rifle should fall to its side because the gun is too freaking huge for the way a Raven's leg are made.

It's time PGI starts balancing their game. Enough with the current FOTM mentality.

[Taemien]

Boating anything is bad.

Right now it gives mediocre players a chance to be competitive. For some reason the community thinks they are too strong. I think they are weak in comparison.

[Merky Merc]

So combine the hardpoint system with a crit slot limit?

You have 3 energy hardpoints in your right torso, but only 5 crit slots in said torso can be used for energy weapons. Choose your weapon.

Etc etc I like to think of it as a hybrid between the current system and MW4s system.

[Sephlock]

Sybreed, on 17 April 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

YES.

And that post proves that PGI did NOT envisioned the long term impacts of their hardpoint system.

And let's be honest here, when we saw it in CB, we all thought it felt a bit forced and done at the last second.

The way people are abusing the hardpoint system right now just shows that it isn't what MWO needs. People need to pick a mech for the role they want, not the other way around. I'm sick of ER PPC + Gauss poptards (yes, poptards), I'm sick of 6 PPC or 6 LL stalkers, sick of 100 LRMs firing Stalkers or Awesomes. These shouldn't exist. There shouldn't be a Centurion with a huge gun on its right arm if there is actually nothing there because it's only using his Missile harpdoints. The Raven using a Gauss Rifle should fall to its side because the gun is too freaking huge for the way a Raven's leg are made.

It's time PGI starts balancing their game. Enough with the current FOTM mentality.

[Forestal]

Sybreed, on 17 April 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

YES.

And that post proves that PGI did NOT envisioned the long term impacts of their hardpoint system.

And let's be honest here, when we saw it in CB, we all thought it felt a bit forced and done at the last second.

The way people are abusing the hardpoint system right now just shows that it isn't what MWO needs. People need to pick a mech for the role they want, not the other way around. I'm sick of ER PPC + Gauss poptards (yes, poptards), I'm sick of 6 PPC or 6 LL stalkers, sick of 100 LRMs firing Stalkers or Awesomes. These shouldn't exist. There shouldn't be a Centurion with a huge gun on its right arm if there is actually nothing there because it's only using his Missile harpdoints. The Raven using a Gauss Rifle should fall to its side because the gun is too freaking huge for the way a Raven's leg are made.

It's time PGI starts balancing their game. Enough with the current FOTM mentality.

But how would they do that given the seeming arbitrariness of the Hardpoints Systems they introduced? At first I thought it was a property of the mech's weight class or particular variant-- as the new mechs keep coming out with more and more "awesome-ridiculous" hardpoints arrangements, it seems that hardpoints are not related (& therefore not "balanced") by the physical attributes of each mech...

I'm beginning to think that despite hailing from the Battletech Universe, PGI/MWO never aimed for a "balanced" game cos it would interfere with the neverending sale/release of awesome-ridiculous new mechs-- compared to say, Airmech and even Hawken, where each new mech/feature/map needs to justify their place in the EXISTING game (why 2 stealth/defensive mechs, why 2 congested/linear maps, why...)

Edited by Forestal, 17 April 2013 - 07:21 PM.

[TB Freelancer]

Odins Fist, on 17 April 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

F.Y.I., I have "NOT" seen a Small-Laser used in combat in months, and I can't remember the last time I saw a Small-Laser on anything, not to mention Small Pulse-Lasers...

The small and medium pulse lasers just don't make any kind of sense. The small pulse is for all intents and purposes the same as the small laser, save for being double the weight, 150% hotter, and a shorter burn time that really doesn't account for much at 90m.

Its even worse with the medium pulse. It also weighs twice as much, runs hotter than the medium and has a significantly reduced range.

As far as small lasers go, they actually aren't that bad. A 4P could mount them and maintain a way higher sustained DPS than it could with medium lasers. Problem is its got to be practically hugging its target to deliver the damage and stay on the target to keep pounding out an alpha every couple seconds.

I do use small lasers on some lights in order to make room for SRMS, and those configs have treated me quite well.

Although it isn't a hard point issue, AFAIK, IS mechs are supposed to run cooler than Clan mechs. With how bad it is right now with the IS mechs. I'm kinda worried about how screwed up the heat is going to be with Clan mechs....

....I can see some of the classic energy boats just exploding the second they try pulling off an alpha.

[tenderloving]

Forestal, on 17 April 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

But how would they do that given the seeming arbitrariness of the Hardpoints Systems they introduced? At first I thought it was a property of the mech's weight class or particular variant-- as the new mechs keep coming out with more and more "awesome-ridiculous" hardpoints arrangements, it seems that hardpoints are not related (& therefore not "balanced") by the physical attributes of each mech...

I'm beginning to think that despite hailing from the Battletech Universe, PGI/MWO never aimed for a "balanced" game cos it would interfere with the neverending sale/release of awesome-ridiculous new mechs-- compared to say, Airmech and even Hawken, where each new mech/feature/map needs to justify their place in the EXISTING game (why 2 stealth/defensive mechs, why 2 congested/linear maps, why...)

It's possible you're right. I just hope people are smart enough to reject this model if it continues, and don't defend a clearly broken system.

The current # of hardpoints available on mechs isn't terrible, but the fact that the same hardpoint can hold a machine gun or an AC/20 is a big balance problem. It pretty much eliminates certain mechs (the Hollander has been mentioned already) and removes the intended purpose of each mech.

The only PPC boat we should have right now is the Awesome, but you don't even see people using Awesomes. How is this not a problem?

tenderloving, on 17 April 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

It's possible you're right. I just hope people are smart enough to reject this model if it continues, and don't defend a clearly broken system.

The current # of hardpoints available on mechs isn't terrible, but the fact that the same hardpoint can hold a machine gun or an AC/20 is a big balance problem. It pretty much eliminates certain mechs (the Hollander has been mentioned already) and removes the intended purpose of each mech.

The only PPC boat we should have right now is the Awesome, but you don't even see people using Awesomes. How is this not a problem? We have a Trebuchet that can carry an AC/20, why do we need a Hunchback with its massive, obvious hump?

[Davers]

Majorfatboy, on 17 April 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

YESYESYESYESYES

This has been bugging Me for a while. Take the arms on the Catapult K2: You've got this huge barrel meant for bringing a great whopping load of energy firepower to bear, but can only carry one (1) weapon. Either a single erppc, or down to a single small laser.
Not take a look at the arms on the Jenner-F: A little box on a pivot joint that can mount three (3) weapons. You could slap three erppc's in there. Not that you'd want to, but the point is one mech has a physically huge, barely articulated arm that can only hold a single device, but the other mech has a tiny little matchbox of a limb the not only has a greater range of movement, but can potentially carry three times the hardware.

Things like this is what leads to doublegaussdoubleerppc setups. It forces the player into a minmax situation where they have to carry a couple of the biggest weapons, because they simply can't carry a diverse mix of smaller ones.

We have finally come full circle. From "It is stupid that K2s are allowed to equip gauss rifles into machine gun slots!" to "These guns are so huge they should be able to carry 2 gauss in each!".

[Gaden Phoenix]

I too would like a crit slot or weapon size limitation.

Current system is quite screwy and really promotes min/max boating.

Regards.

[aniviron]

Odins Fist, on 17 April 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

F.Y.I., I have "NOT" seen a Small-Laser used in combat in months, and I can't remember the last time I saw a Small-Laser on anything, not to mention Small Pulse-Lasers...

Hey, the small laser got a lot of use last patch! AWS-8Q as a trial mech, and that one slas in the head...

[alexivy]

Chavette, on 17 April 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

Small weapons don't get boated as much as they usually have smaller range, which makes them less of use in the current meta.

#Answered

/lock

boy you really told us

#*****

Edited by alexivy, 17 April 2013 - 10:12 PM.

[Brilig]

There is nothing wrong with boating. Several cannon mechs are boats.

The problem we have in MWO is that the convergence system gives boats the ability to put a ton of damage on a single spot in 1 alpha strike. Convergence is making it so every weapon on your mech hits the exact same tiny spot all at once.

EDIT: /sigh I didn't read the post just the title. I think I may be going rabbid.
More to the point I don't really have an issue with a Jenner Being able to mount PPCs. I like that we have this degree of customization. It allows for some pretty interesting niche builds. It also keeps things fresh, and forces people to stay on their toes. You can't always assume that any mech is going to be equipped for any particular role.

Edited by Brilig, 17 April 2013 - 10:37 PM.

[Dr Killinger]

I agree completely, and I think it will allow for more interesting avenues to be explored once omnimechs arrive.

I would break weapons up into the four weight classes- light, medium, heavy, and assault. I would then classify each hardpoint as one of those accordingly. Then allow the hardpoint to hold it's weight or one below. If you want bigger, you use up 2 hardpoints.

I think the game is too far along it's development cycle in that regard, though.

[Monsoon]

Boating is going to happen if people can find a way.

Personally, I'm hoping they'll add the extra dimension of Large and Small weapon hardpoints.

It would certainly put a cramp in the K2's style if the only weapon you could substitute the Machine Guns for was the AC/2. Besides, I kind of miss seeing Small and Medium lasers on Assault mechs. They're too rare a sight nowadays.

[Albert Cowboy Teuton]

My favorite quick fix: make separate hardpoints for Lasers and PPCs. it won't affect the stock variants as they will be updated to their correct type and boats will have to be revised so that they actually "boat" the type of weapon they were designed for. I don't think "size" maters so much and I'd rather have a 4xLL Stalker in my face than a 32xSL hunchback in my back.

[bigdaddynash]

Koreanese, on 17 April 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

Only boating problem I see is. Large laser stalkers. Other then that,I see no problems. TThere's counter for just about everything

And 6 ppc stalkers are fine? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Ialti]

Odins Fist, on 17 April 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

F.Y.I., I have "NOT" seen a Small-Laser used in combat in months, and I can't remember the last time I saw a Small-Laser on anything, not to mention Small Pulse-Lasers...

One SL Awesome coming right up...

[MeatForBrains]

tenderloving, on 17 April 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

Our current hardpoint system was set up ostensibly to prevent boating and provide the mechs with "flavor." The # of hardpoints was limited except on mechs that were specifically designed to boat.

This is a two fold problem. It has to do with the number of slots a mech has on its arms/legs etc. Which is the root of the problem with ravens carrying gauss highlander that cant carry an AC20 etc.

If it's a smaller mech it should have less slots. Use slot availability to limit weapon size, and carrying the qty. An Atlas should have a huge amount of space, and a spider should have very little. Either change the number of the available slots, or scale the weapons to take up a different amount of slots based on weight class.

ALSO

We don't need hardpoints the way the game has them setup, we need power based usage, especially for energy weapons. An engine needs an available energy pool that all weapons tap from. The bigger the engine, the more slots it takes up (or smaller is less) and the larger or smaller available energy pool.

Unused energy reduces energy weapon cycle time, or slows it down etc.

Don't put qty and type of hardpoints, just put a hardpoint type in any location the designer wish allowing you to put any number of whatever weapon type. Instead of limiting type AND qty. In other words just limit type. This way you aren't putting a PPC in an obvious missle slot per the mech model, but you can put 10ssrm2 or whatever instead of 2xlrm20. The slot usage with the above mechanic will take care of the rest. And will let you take equivalent damage values. Boat a high amount of small, or a small amount of large. 12 in one hand, half dozen in the other, with other tradeoffs.

It would also be nice to buy ammo in qty's instead of by tons, rounded up to the nearest slot.

Edited by MeatForBrains, 18 April 2013 - 05:11 AM.