71 replies to this topic

[John MatriX82]

Cel, on 17 April 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

All you have to do is turn, let them hit your arm. Besides, even if it is a bug - people will still use TAG and/or Artemis and still achieve the same effect and you'll still think it's bugged.

CT tracking often goes beyond torso twisting, in my Cicadas all I get are CT hits, many times even offering nothing else than the back to the ssrm shooter.

All missiles are still bugged indeed, devs are aware of the CT only hitting issue but so fare they haven't been doing nothing besides reducing damage and splash.

[Reptilizer]

Thontor, on 17 April 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Hmm... same tonnage, same crit slots... 60% more damage? in 3 less games?

Hmmm, terribad hitrate for the ERPPC vs. a VERY GOOD hitrate for the LURMs.

No offense intended, but most people i know have at least 70% hit for the ERPPC and less than 30% for the LRMs.
You probably have a very interesting playstyle. Looking forward to meet you on the battlefield.

BUT caught you on polemics here: How many did you field? 1 ERPPC vs. 4 LRM15? And then use total damage for percentage comparisons?
*cough* Politician in RL, right? *cough*

[shabowie]

Victor Morson, on 17 April 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

LRMs do less damage than lawn darts

Not sure what you mean, lawn darts are deadly weapons. Back in the early 80s we used to play with these before they were banned for the good of mankind.

Thuzel, on 17 April 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

For their weight investment, LRMs are absolutely terrible. Just compare the LRM 15 to a PPC and try not to laugh when you realize how bad the LRM 15 sucks... Here's a hint, look at the accuracy of a decent LRM user and compare it to the accuracy of a decent PPC user.

SRM's also need a small damage buff to be brought back in line.

All missile mechanics need to be looked at. LRM and SRM velocity should both be increased, LRM by more. Real dramatic differences in Artemis vs non patterning for both. Solving the CT clustering issue with LRMs at the root of the splash problem still. Streak mechanics looked at closely (new lock every volley, change basket size reticle needs to be in to get lock, make it easier to lose lock once you have it, etc., etc.). Make AMS somewhat effective against all missile types and make this effectiveness scale so that small launchers are still useful and insanely boated launchers are still impacted by AMS. Like it was in TT. Once Mechanics are good, THEN start tweaking damage numbers. Screwing around with the numbers while the underlying mechanics are so obviously flawed is backwards.

Edited by shabowie, 18 April 2013 - 04:15 AM.

[Mafalin]

I think comparing LRMs to PPCs is comparing apples to oranges. Someone wrote that LRMs make them run and hide or possibly shut down their mech entirely, making LRM an excellent supressing weapon. Also there's the benefit of being able to fire from cover while someone else spots which can be a devastating tactic in the right situation. The PPCs by contrast have great direct pinpoint damage potential making them more of a sniping weapon.

[OlF]

LRMs are effective in a range up to 400m (cause then ppl who are not totally unaware of whats going on around them dont have such a big chance to hide, shutdown ...).

Someone mentioned the flight speed increased, i support this idea.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I hit 50% and I suck. So I disagree with your assertion that 50% is good.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Yeah but I'm terrible.

[MustrumRidcully]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 18 April 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

Yeah but I'm terrible.

That's what you believe. But maybe you're overestimating people here?

My best ballistic projectile value seems to be 66 %. (That would be with an AC/10). PPC is 47% and ER PPC 57 %.

[Reptilizer]

Thontor, on 18 April 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

50%. Not great, but not terrible like you would have us believe. I have seen plenty of people posting their weapon stats, and 50% is average or slightly better. People tend to fire PPCs if there's even the slightest chance of hitting something. Because there's no ammo to worry about, and they are usually in a position where the heat doesn't matter.

And I never bring less than two ERPPCs or more than two LRM15s into a match

Regardless of the accuracy, or how many were brought... LRM15 did 14.5 damage per 15 missiles hit, ERPPC did 9.8

Ok, i have to be more direct then. You can not compare total damage values to compare damage efficiency.
Why?
Because the two systems compared you look at are not equal and heavily dependant on circumstances.

Two easy to follow examples:

ERPPC: You use your ERPPC for max range sniping only -> damage will be very low per shot, because damage per shot gets smaller the further the target is away. Other people might use ERPPCs only at point blank for alphabrawling. Damage will be higher...

LRM: LRMs make splash damage. The splash damage radius is smaller than a mech. Total target size and hit location thus determine how many sections are affected by splash and thus how much total damage per missile is done. Shooting mainly at smaller mediums that move will produce different results than firing at stalkers in long distance standoffs.

So, while your numbers may be true for you, they are not THE TRUTH, because THE TRUTH does not exist for dynamic systems that are heavily influenced by individual behaviour.

And so i call, again, POLEMICS!!!

Edited by Reptilizer, 18 April 2013 - 05:31 AM.

[Death Mallet]

Victor Morson, on 17 April 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

LRMs do less damage than lawn darts

Lawn darts are banned. So I guess the point of your argument is that LRMs should be also? LOL

[SpiralRazor]

M1N3CRAF7, on 17 April 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Because people got over there butt hurtness and realized that lrms still work pretty damn well.. there doing what there supposed to and suppressing the enemy. i think the damage levels of lrms are perfect but they need to fly a little faster. on the other hand srms need a little damage buff as well as ssrms. or keep the same ssrm damage but have them fly and reload faster. and give us ssrm4/6

Missiles are terrible...and you are terrible for suggesting that they are even remotely good... Have fun with that .33 ratio.

[tayhimself]

Reptilizer, on 18 April 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

Hmmm, terribad hitrate for the ERPPC vs. a VERY GOOD hitrate for the LURMs.

No offense intended, but most people i know have at least 70% hit for the ERPPC and less than 30% for the LRMs.

Could you post your own 80% ERPPC screenshots? You must only know people in the 95th percentile. I think 50% is around average based on my own percentage and my own KDR and W/L.

[Ph30nix]

Ravingdork, on 17 April 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

Haha. Just kidding.

Seriously though, since the April patch, it seems like I'm seeing an abundance of missiles again. And they're working.

I had an entire team get ahnihilated by missile vollies in at least one game, and in several others they did a great job of stripping armor and keeping enemies wary.

Did something change? Either in the mechanics or in the community? They just don't seem as useless as they once did.

the only times ive seen them as useful is in stalker boats, (i use the term boat not as a negative but just to note that LRM's were their main weapon 50+)

on anything less they end up being an annoyance to the target thats about it.

[Reptilizer]

Thontor, on 18 April 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

I only brought up the comparison because Thuzel asked me to.

"LRMs are absolutely terrible. Just compare the LRM 15 to a PPC and try not to laugh when you realize how bad the LRM 15 sucks... "

I compared, like he asked, and came to a different conclusion.

Yep, thats what you did.
You based your argument (60% more damage) on a set of numbers (your profile data) you presented. Only that the data is not some fact representing the systems in question, but some numbers representing your personal playstyle.
Nobody asked for your personal playstyle though...

No offense intended here really.
It is just that i use this so often in forum "discussions" myself, that i sometimes forget you can fall into this trap without having the intention.

Edited by Reptilizer, 18 April 2013 - 06:40 AM.

[Ph30nix]

M1N3CRAF7, on 17 April 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Because people got over there butt hurtness and realized that lrms still work pretty damn well.. there doing what there supposed to and suppressing the enemy. i think the damage levels of lrms are perfect but they need to fly a little faster. on the other hand srms need a little damage buff as well as ssrms. or keep the same ssrm damage but have them fly and reload faster. and give us ssrm4/6

NO and NO to the SSRM damage, they are just fine, they tear lights a new one very quickly and easily,

SSRM's (and probably LRM's if they get a speed buff like they need) need to have their hit location randomized per missle, so they dont always go for CT but each missle gets a differnt location to go after at launch.

[Reptilizer]

tayhimself, on 18 April 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

Could you post your own 80% ERPPC screenshots? You must only know people in the 95th percentile. I think 50% is around average based on my own percentage and my own KDR and W/L.

*facepalm*
You missed the point. My post was about the argument itself, not about the numbers.

Regardless:
No screenshots from me.
But you can see my unformatted e-peen:

Edit: NOT. When somebody can tell me how to teach the forum to accept a copy&paste table i will deliver though

Edited by Reptilizer, 18 April 2013 - 06:36 AM.

[MN03]

LRMs are fine if the opponent team has no ECM. If they do have ECM (especially multiple), you can laugh at your missiles being wasted because of 0.5 second locks. And I'm not even talking about hitting JJ poptards.

Edited by MN03, 18 April 2013 - 06:39 AM.

[Gregore]

Thuzel, on 17 April 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

For their weight investment, LRMs are absolutely terrible. Just compare the LRM 15 to a PPC and try not to laugh when you realize how bad the LRM 15 sucks... Here's a hint, look at the accuracy of a decent LRM user and compare it to the accuracy of a decent PPC user.

SRM's also need a small damage buff to be brought back in line.

So you're saying the LRM people need to learn to aim?

[Jae Hyun Nakamura]

Last page VICTOR MORSON said LRM's are 'mech-knockdown-machines.

Dear Victor,
I have seen the many posts you have and were wondering how you can fi d the time to play TT and more important to me is what ki d of TT you are playing. As long as i remember (from my 3025 two weeks ago and all the not countable games of BT TT before) LRM's need a roll of 2D6 on a hit table where you need at least 8+ on the roll to get more than 50% of your missiles on an opponent mech. Even Artemis gives you a +2 Bonus on missile table, but it's still a +6 roll to get 50% possible damage. All LRM Damage was spread over your opponent i steps of five damage+the rest. It means: for every fi e point of damage you must make a roll on hit location table. ...a lot of dice rolls, don't you think?

My favorite LRM boat is the Naginata, but to be a mech-knockdown-machine it needs support in a C3 network with a spider for better to-hit modifiers. LRM's can be devastating...but they must hit.

30-40% Accuracy with missiles and the demage they do is really close to BT TT.

Go get your books, maps and sheets and play a little 3050 game with 4 mechs per side and take at least one LRMer. You will see what you can do with a LRM boat (i bet 30-40%)

[WANTED]

I hated LRM boats ( Archer, etc ) in the old TT game for the same reason as Jae posted above. They miss alot. But I do find them effective from others on my team to keep the enemy at bay at times. Otherwise, they need a buff a bit. At the moment I have no fear really of them like I did 2 patches back. Of course I really have no fear when running my ECM lights and neither do my team cause I stay near them for the same reason, so they get ECM protection lock from LRMs while getting into position.