220 replies to this topic

[Lukoi Banacek]

DaPwnageMachine, on 18 April 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Bring it back in a way that can't be abused. Rewards are now incentives based on performance instead of just win or loss, so it actually wouldn't be viable to make money by trial suiciding. .

Reincrease the heat on energy weapons massively so that boating actually takes more skill than just having mastered coolrun with +18 double heat sinks.

Gauss boats, SRM boats, and LRM boats? Make refilling ammo extra expensive to the point where you would actually make it costly to take one just like how it was costly to take an XL engine or an Atlas.

Want more medium mechs? Make repairing heavy mechs and assault mechs so costly to repair that you would want a light or medium in your mechbay to make money off of. Introduce a "skill" bonus in cbills earned based on kills that would be greater for lights and mediums while having a smaller bonus or heavies and assaults. Of course, such a bonus should not be introduced until after collisions are brought back correctly. Bring skill back to light mechs with collisions.

There you go, instant balance for all weapons that everyone is crying OP about every patch. I don't bout you guys, but the game was so much more fun and deep when the economy was in place despite it's massive exploit that ruined it. With the economy gone, I have no interest in this game with nothing to play for and I think a lot of players are feeling hte same way. I think we're in a much better position now to prevent that trial run suiciding exploit and bring this game back to the way it was supposed to be.

Need a poll, so I can vote no to this proposal. Not well thought through as shown by other players.

R&R in a more refined form, I'm all about considering. But not this. Sorry.

Edited by Lukoi, 18 April 2013 - 01:52 PM.

[Phalanx100bc]

CW/Battletech universe + no economy = more giving into the XBOX lowest common denominator crowd.

[TOGSolid]

Vapor Trail, on 18 April 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

Provided his team won and he remained undamaged. Since they're effectively down a mech to start with it gets that much harder. And since the team also benefits from the farmer's presence and loadout, it's not all bad.

Perhaps apply the multiplier to "performance based" bonuses and none on the "win award" bonus. This way the "farmer" has to actually get into the battle to get any benefit... and if he gimps himself too much he loses a lot of his bonus award to getting blown apart. Might even need to drop the "how much damage your team took" modifier for the multiplier.

That could work. Assists would need to be rejiggered so that their reward scaled to the damage you actually did to prevent someone from just pinging somebody with a laser and then running away. If you only did 1% of the total damage to a mech then your payout for that assist should be equally crappy.

Phalanx100bc, on 18 April 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

CW/Battletech universe + no economy = more giving into the XBOX lowest common denominator crowd.

CW is its own beast which would require an entirely different discussion than the basic R&R one. I'm against R&R on a personal level but for CW there should be some sort of economy for merc corps/houses.

Edited by TOGSolid, 18 April 2013 - 01:54 PM.

[Inkarnus]

iam totally for RandR
remove Kiddywarrior online insert Skillwarrior onlin
i hate it that ppl just rant because they cant see over there enviroment
this is the way to go
iam for Variety Warrior online instead of Assaultmechonline were the Killboxing team wins or the team wich has 200tons more tonnage

[TOGSolid]

Inkarnus, on 18 April 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

iam totally for RandR
remove Kiddywarrior online insert Skillwarrior onlin
i hate it that ppl just rant because they cant see over there enviroment
this is the way to go
iam for Variety Warrior online instead of Assaultmechonline were the Killboxing team wins or the team wich has 200tons more tonnage

Feel free to explain how R&R would successfully accomplish any of that.

[Hellcat420]

thats a great idea if you want to play this game by yourself.

[Zerberus]

TOGSolid, on 18 April 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

That could work. Assists would need to be rejiggered so that their reward scaled to the damage you actually did to prevent someone from just pinging somebody with a laser and then running away. If you only did 1% of the total damage to a mech then your payout for that assist should be equally crappy.

I agree and disagree, both strongly. In principle, I agree.

In practice: If the 1% I did was the stripping of the head armor that allowed the raven with his sl to crit the cockpit, why should I NOT get Full credit? It was clearly my strike that allowed the kill and not the 80 dmg loancemate x did to his torso. So why should he get credit at all?

Therefore, I feel the current system is fine until a whole new level of hit registration and damage counting metrics are introduced. A level that no game has or could currently realistically implement.

Edited by Zerberus, 18 April 2013 - 02:02 PM.

[Brian Steiner and Davion]

I for one support bringing back simulates slavery in the form of indentured technicians!

BSandD

Edited by Brian Steiner and Davion, 18 April 2013 - 02:02 PM.

[stjobe]

I kinda like the thought of some kind of R&R system, although the one we had was rightly scrapped.

Back in CB I suggested the following for R&R (Repair & Rearm as well as Risk & Reward):
* House units (low risk, low reward): No Repair & Rearm, but lowered match rewards
* Merc corps (medium risk, medium reward: 50% Repair & Rearm, normal match rewards
* Lone wolfs (high risk, high reward): 100% Repair & Rearm, higher match rewards

The thinking is that if you're a House unit, the House owns and maintains your 'mech, so you don't have to bother with R&R. On the other hand, you just get your regular paycheck each month.

If you're in a Merc corp, you're responsible for your own maintenance, but the Corp covers some of the costs, in exchange for some of your earnings. Do well, and you'll earn a bit more. Do less well, and earn a little less.

If you're a lone wolf, your 'mech maintainance is all on you, but on the other hand you don't have to share your earnings with anyone. Do well, and earn big. Do less well, and walk away empty-handed (or close to it).

The actual Repair & Rearm mechanic could be roughly what it used to be, just without the free repair/rearm bonus we had. Match rewards probably need to be tweaked a bit though.

Also, everyone would of course get their full XP, the only thing this system would change in match rewards would be the amount of CB you got.

[TOGSolid]

Zerberus, on 18 April 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

I agree and disagree, both strongly. In principle, I agree.

In practice: If the 1% I did was the stripping of the head armor that allowed the raven with his sl to crit the cockpit, why should I NOT get Full credit? It was clearly my strike that allowed the kill and not the 80 dmg loancemate x did to his torso. So why should he get credit at all?

Therefore, I feel the current system is fine until a whole new level of hit registration and damage counting metrics are introduced. A level that no game has or could currently realistically implement.

It's certainly not perfect, I'm just kinda brainstorming how this system could work in a way to discourage farming with this theoretical reward system. Doing so would certainly not being an easy task. Maybe put a minimum payment that scales up depending on the damage you do?

Edited by TOGSolid, 18 April 2013 - 02:13 PM.

[Quxudica]

Und3rSc0re, on 18 April 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

Alright im done with a somewhat debate, if you guys really want equality why dont you just have pgi take out cbills entirely and make everything free, why punish people with jobs and familys with not much time to grind for that expensive clan mech or assault anyway.

/not too serious here

Losing sarcasm aside, I really wouldn't care if there was no money in game. Once upon a time competitive video games did have everything available on an equal bassis. Quake and Unreal, Goldeneye and Perfect Dark, to name a couple classics, SOCOM to name a personal favorite - players had everything they needed without having to grind an arbitrary amount of time. In fact, outside of MMORPGs games really didn't have treadmills and people still loved them. The incorporation of progression systems into new genres wasn't a completely bad thing - but its largely been used in modern titles as little more then a way to artificially extend content. CoD and BF are perfect examples of this treadmill system taken to an extreme.

Sometimes I miss the days when I and a friend could hop in a shooter and play with whatever we wanted to without having to have invested a 100 hours in the game. I also find myself missing when losing was a bad thing because you lost and the great thing about winning was that you won, no need for achievement chasing or point whoring or fake money grinding. I invested hundreds of hours with only non-persistent end of round score boards to show for it and still had fun.

/shrugs,

[Inkarnus]

TOGSolid, on 18 April 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Feel free to explain how R&R would successfully accomplish any of that.

simple if that suicider that runs every game into the enemy gunsblazing dieing instantly would stop
since that one has something too lose ppl would communicate wich i had alot even in pugs at that time
now everybody has radiosilence and doesnt care if win or lose on to the slaughter bay


it would stop that everybody and its hound plays constantly assaults for farming lesser players
i dont say everything is perfect but there needs to be a drawback to drive a 100ton mech wich can get
more money then a light and more xp cuz he can dish out the damage easy

and if the meta isnt anymore assault heavy ppl will play what they like heavys meds lights and we dont have that sniper warrior online like now sine the few assaults can be flanked and killed by lights or other stuff

since they cant limit assaults too 2 per match and 2-3 heavys and the rest meds and lights

Edited by Inkarnus, 18 April 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[Hellcat420]

Inkarnus, on 18 April 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

simple if that suicider that runs every game into the enemy gunsblazing dieing instantly would stop
since that one has something too lose ppl would communicate wich i had alot even in pugs at that time
now everybody has radiosilence and doesnt care if win or lose on to the slaughter bay


it would stop that everybody and its hound plays constantly assaults for farming lesser players
i dont say everything is perfect but there needs to be a drawback to drive a 100ton mech wich can get
more money then a light and more xp cuz he can dish out the damage easy

and if the meta isnt anymore assault heavy ppl will play what they like heavys meds lights and we dont have that sniper warrior online like now sine the few assaults can be flanked and killed by lights or other stuff

since they cant limit assaults too 2 per match and 2-3 heavys and the rest meds and lights

repair and rearm didnt stop suiciders before, why would it magically work now?

[Inkarnus]

yeah totally the fault of the system that it was incomplete lol and everybody could skip it
I dont say they need to put all off it back but if they would make it 100% functionable
and you cant skip the process it can work
i dont talk that everything was right in the past but the devs didnt obviosly repair it and instead of repairing
it they canceled it

I dont say the system was totally fair but we got alot of diversity and communication
wich atm isnt happening cuz u dont need it or dont care
but it forced you too evolve get better at the game and not riding the "chuchuchu" op train
or running to the next enemy and pewpew die losing the win for the team inbetween

Edited by Inkarnus, 18 April 2013 - 02:26 PM.

[Tarball]

Wow this sounds super fun!.........nope.

[TOGSolid]

Inkarnus, on 18 April 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

yeah totally the fault of the system that it was incomplete lol and everybody could skip it
I dont say they need to put all off it back but if they would make it 100% functionable
and you cant skip the process it can work
i dont talk that everything was right in the past but the devs didnt obviosly repair it and instead of repairing
it they canceled it

I dont say the system was totally fair but we got alot of diversity and communication
wich atm isnt happening cuz u dont need it or dont care
but it forced you too evolve get better at the game and not riding the "chuchuchu" op train
or running to the next enemy and pewpew die losing the win for the team inbetween

But how would you change it to be better? No matter what R&R will only hurt the new and the less skilled and it will never stop good players from running whatever the best builds are. It never used to and never will.


The diversity issues will be solved by tonnage limits. Communication issues require better in game comm tools like being able to broadcast a target by double pressing R and preferably built in VOIP.

[stjobe]

Elo matchmaking should (in theory) take care of the "new players vs veterans" problem.

Also, there's no need to throw the new players into the deep end; we already have the Cadet bonus, they could expand on that to also ease them into a new R&R system.

Edited by stjobe, 18 April 2013 - 02:34 PM.

[Carl Wrede]

Yes absolutely! Bring back repair and rearm costs! It doesnt really feel like BT/MW without it.

[Inkarnus]

TOGSolid, on 18 April 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

But how would you change it to be better? No matter what R&R will only hurt the new and the less skilled and it will never stop good players from running whatever the best builds are. It never used to and never will.


The diversity issues will be solved by tonnage limits. Communication issues require better in game comm tools like being able to broadcast a target by double pressing R and preferably built in VOIP.

you really think Voicecom will make the pug games anybetter that wont happen sadly that wont happen

There is always a way to change it to the better by introducing it step by step not all at once as the devs did
and if you tweak it to be reasonable ok

the pro will be better sure but he want the mony so he will drive a light to max his earnings were as the normal hobo will ride meds heavys or even assaults
this will solve alot of the pug stomping since its even Clans underbid the Battleforces in a Trial to gain more
Honor so why not get more cbills for less Tonnage.

simple as that you just need to give them ppl a fair money advantage and we would see alot more change in weightclasses
maybe even some events were some chassis earn more or such

there is always a way you just need to be open to it and not just say naaay

Edited by Inkarnus, 18 April 2013 - 02:40 PM.

[Sierra19]

Part of a repair and rearm system design, is to make the grind for money (c-bills) to buy items (mechs/weapons/consumables/upgrades) more difficult, thereby increasing the number of people who'd be willing to premium time (theoretically...). The design behind R&R is NOT to hamstring players due to poor performance/good performance, or to induce unforeseen (trial suiciding) game play. How many Stalkers with LRM 90's have you seen, or SplatCats for that matter, since the missile "nerf"? Sure, you still see them, but they aren't 2-4 per side per match anymore.