143 replies to this topic

[TheSteelRhino]

Jumpjets should generate Heat. Also, sorry there should be some shake, and don't even start on things like WIND. Also, they should THROW you into the air.

And before you say it's 90 ton battlemech, a boeing 777 ways 300,000 lbs that's 150 tons. EMPTY. No fuel, no luggage, and it's actually MEANT to be aerodynamic.

In short, firing and hitting while jumpjetting should require an insane level of skill.

[TheSteelRhino]

Jumpjets should generate Heat. Also, sorry there should be some shake, and don't even start on things like WIND. Also, they should THROW you into the air.

And before you say it's 90 ton battlemech, a boeing 777 ways 300,000 lbs that's 150 tons. EMPTY. No fuel, no luggage, and it's actually MEANT to be aerodynamic.

Look..wind effects aircraft carriers in the water. It can literally push them sideways. I think a 90 ton mech is going to shake/drift/etc.

In short, firing and hitting while jumpjetting should require an insane level of skill.

[hammerreborn]

Quote

2) JJ Buff. The nerf a while back made jumpjets unsuitable for poptarting but still made them excellent for maneuvering around the battlefield, especially for lights. Quick turning, getting over small obstacles lights and heavies especially got stuck on etc. The buff back up from them instantly made poptarting king again. I miss those JJ.

Hoverjets was not excellent for maneuvering anything.

And any small obstacles you could get over faster by running (hell that is still the case with nearly every obstacle now still, including mountains)...so...you're just wrong

Edited by hammerreborn, 27 April 2013 - 09:02 PM.

[Culler]

Xostriyad, on 18 April 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Not sure how much recoil there would be with a PPC or a Guass rifle.

Heck, isn't a Guass Rifle made to be recoiless or am I thinking railguns?

Newton's 3rd law says that there's no such thing as recoilless. There are recoil-compensated weapons, but nothing projects a mass forward without having some kind of equal and opposite force to consider. Recoilless rifles usually have an ejected gas iirc. Energy projection is a different beast, since it has no mass.

Edited by Culler, 27 April 2013 - 09:09 PM.

[syngyne]

Xostriyad, on 18 April 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Not sure how much recoil there would be with a PPC or a Guass rifle.

Heck, isn't a Guass Rifle made to be recoiless or am I thinking railguns?

Momentum still has to be conserved.

Railgun:



Coilgun(skip to about 10 seconds before the end):

[Alienfreak]

Malzel, on 27 April 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

You could still poptart with Large Lasers, but that's not a point-click-kill situation. The proliferation of PPCs is the underlying cause of the poptart imbalance, and that's already on PGI's chopping block.

A K-2 has no ability to mount Jump Jets. Only PGI and god knows why, but it is that way.

[p4g3m4s7r]

Jade Kitsune, on 27 April 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

While you have a good argument, I disagree with the fact that CoF would cause more people to shoot Center Mass...

The fact is, everyone bases their initial shots on CT anyway, it's quicker to take down a mech that way in the first place, and you have a better chance of hitting the CT on most builds than hitting anywhere else. That being said, there are plenty of people in existing games that learn how the CoF works, and can place, accurately, a sniper weapons bullet into the head of the enemy without even scoping in. [360 noscope headshots anyone?]

So please, tell me again how CoF mechanics are such a horrible idea as an extrapolation of the TT "to hit" numbers? At the very least, it's a better system to the "you hit 100% always" now.

I don't know about you, but I personally got over Quake aiming after Quake 3.

You don't see people who play ArmA compaining that the CoF is screwed because your weapon is off slightly because you were running around.

Oh, wait, you're arguing from the quake "I pointed my railgun at that pixel, I want it to hit THAT pixel" argument... sorry.

I'm not advocating for Quake3 like accuracy, I'm just arguing that if you made the CoF large enough to actually impede on poptarting that it would make the game frustrating because you'd think "why did my shot just veer off to the left for no reason?"

CoD is a bad game and reference for this game, and you should feel bad for brining it up

So, here's another thought. If we add across-the-board CoF, that actually wont affect pop-tarting at all and still make the tactic advantageous. The CoF from the guy on the ground firing back doesn't fix the fact that it's harder for him to hit the pop-tarter than it is for the pop-tarter to hit him. I could see it fixing high-alpha builds, but then it would invalidate any sniping builds (which are not inherently evil or bad for the game).

Revised suggestions:
- JJ should impart forward momentum even when standing still (also, the way they impart forward momentum while moving needs to be fixed. I explain why here: http://mwomercs.com/...ssing-momentum/).

- JJ's should cause shake to the screen and reticle while being fired. This can remove up to 50% or more of the potential firing time for a pop-tart.

- A better heat limit mechanic needs to be implemented and PPCs/ERPPCs need to ouptut slightly more heat. Just watch SJR-Dale on twitch when he's playing a 6xPPC stalker if you want to know how broken the current heat mechanics are.

Edited by p4g3m4s7r, 28 April 2013 - 08:01 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Alienfreak, on 27 April 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

So... how do you make a recoilless Coilgun?
I mean without turning physics off.

I might not bother, if I know the coil gun is firing every 4 seconds only anyway and I don't have to fire it in a full-automatic firing mode. If the recoil doesn't make my mech fall over or damage the structural integrity, it's fine.

[marabou]

Only way to balance this game is creating faction economics and military simulation that dont alloy players piloting mechs(builds) that they want.
Nerfs\bufs way doesnt solve the problem.

[Appogee]

OP is right.

In fact I just posted in support of recoil in another thread.

The point that upwards/downwards momentum should also affect aim (but on ballistics, PPCs and dumb-fired missiles only) is also valid.

It would be easy to implement these ideas, too. Just increment some backwards momentum on firing, and add one more variable in the equation governing a shot's trajectory.

[p4g3m4s7r]

Appogee, on 28 April 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

OP is right.

In fact I just posted in support of recoil in another thread.

The point that upwards/downwards momentum should also affect aim (but on ballistics, PPCs and dumb-fired missiles only) is also valid.

It would be easy to implement these ideas, too. Just increment some backwards momentum on firing, and add one more variable in the equation governing a shot's trajectory.

As a multitude of people pointed out, recoil will have absolutely zero effect on pop-tarting and alpha striking and will in fact promote these behaviors since sustained fire will become that much more difficult.

[blinkin]

Alienfreak, on 28 April 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

A K-2 has no ability to mount Jump Jets. Only PGI and god knows why, but it is that way.

and sarna, and the battletech rule books. the only mechs allowed jump jets are the ones where it exists in the stock build (the variant in the rules that they used)

[Malzel]

Alienfreak, on 28 April 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

A K-2 has no ability to mount Jump Jets. Only PGI and god knows why, but it is that way.

You're right, I had a total brain malfuction. Probably to keep them from poptarting in the first place.

[Taemien]

MW3 had Jump Snipers too. The funny part is, they were effective with or without cover. At 600m or 5m.

General Taskeen, on 18 April 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

MW3 has a lot of solutions actually, including, but not limited to all of the following:

- Recoil
- Fun Jump Jets (although I prefer the fun + balanced JJ's of MW:LL)

Also all of these are working/useful or have better programmed functionality:
- MG's
- Flamers
- NARC
- LB-X (all of them)
- Pulse Lasers (best pulse laser functionality of any mechwarrior)
- UAC's (fire twice as fast, they do not "double shot")

All of those weapons were practically worthless in Multiplayer. The only weapon in that list worth using were UACs, specifically the 20s. UAC10s, 5s, and 2s, were worthless. LBXs were good before the first (and only patch) because they were OP. Each pellet did the full damage of the weapon (20x52dmg). But that was fixed and they fell out of use.

Flamers had to be boated to be effective (16). Machine Guns were only good when you had 16 of them AND Unlimited Ammo was enabled.

Narcs had no function in MW3. They actually did nothing. It wasn't until MW4 they had a use (which maybe what you are confusing it with).

Pulse Lasers were totally incapable of damaging anyone in Multiplayer. Great for legging mechs for salvage in single though. About the only use.

PPCs and Gauss never hit anything except in Single player with a targeting computer or really really good aim. Forget about them in multi.

Large Lasers did too much heat.

Only Er Small Lasers and Er Medium Lasers were viable multiplayer weapons, As well as UAC20s to a lesser extent. Though you ran a risk of getting torn to shreds by light mechs (it took a 90+ ton slow mech to mount them with enough ammo). In Pirates Moon the Heavy Medium Laser was good as well.. if you mounted them on a 162kph elemental (functioned as a 10 ton mech).

Good thing about MW3 is Inner Sphere mechs were better than Clan. Well sort of. The Strider and in PM, the Centurion were skinny enough to avoid non-HSR laser weapons. Oh yeah, you had to lag shoot:

[Training Instructor]

3N3RGY, on 18 April 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

There will always be jump sniping /pop tarting.

It has ALWAYS been this way. The game naturally evolves this way as players get better.

Novices run in the open and "brawl"; real players know , that it requires strategy to "cover" your mech and shoot precisely, like in any FPS game.

THESE ARE THE SAME TACTICS USED IN COUNTERSTRIKE, BATTLEFIELD, AND CALL OF DUTY.

Most elite Mechwarrior pilots, funny enough, are veterans of these games as-well, and brought these tactics over.

Also, jump sniping /pop tarting takes much more skill than you mentioned, as you have to lead your shots and the mech does "wobble" and throws your aim off. Also, "pros" try to find the minimum distance to clear the hill and manage heat.

So in conclusion, please open your mind to other superior /advanced play styles and the elite players that employ them.

I didn't spend money on this game to play Counterstrike or Call of Duty. If I wanted a bugfree experience where my maps always worked, and developers appeared to have some sort of competency, then I would play those games.

Funny how we never saw the "pros" poptarting with C1 Catapults or Jenners with ppcs back when those were the only mechs that could reasonably be expected to do so. You talk like brawlers have no skill, but for quite some time brawling was the preferred buildout of the exact same guys who are poptarting now, because that was the meta at the time, due to unreliable long range fire for anyone who didn't live near the servers. Those pros and elite players were running Jenners at max speed because they were extremely difficult to hit, or they were running A1 Catapults full of streaks or SRM6 packs. Some of them were running LRM boats raining Artemis-fueled death on hapless pugs.


Let's not pretend that the players you're glorifying would ever run anything but the most powerful mechs in the current meta game. If they introduced hard shake to jumpjets tomorrow, the poptart crew would abandon those mechs immediately, and move to whatever mech was the most optimized in the current meta game.

[Taemien]

Training Instructor, on 28 April 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Let's not pretend that the players you're glorifying would ever run anything but the most powerful mechs in the current meta game. If they introduced hard shake to jumpjets tomorrow, the poptart crew would abandon those mechs immediately, and move to whatever mech was the most optimized in the current meta game.

JJ shake didn't stop people from poptarting in MWLL. Didn't stop them in MPBT3025 either.

[Thomas Covenant]

Recoil sound good. Less stability in air means you are thrown off more and encourages and justifies ground combat. On the other hand how hard is it to fire perfectly> recoil backwards>then just jump up again and fire again with perfect accuracy.

I think being hit in air should knock you around a lot more if the network will allow it.

It really does need to be less accurate to fire while jump jetting, even if they do add extra-mid-air recoil.

[Thomas Covenant]

It could get really sophisticated with mid air recoil. f you fire one big weapon from one side of your body you will spin to that side. If you fire two big weapons from an even distance you will blast backward faster but evenly. Adds new dynamics and strategy to weapon placement!

[neviu]

Edited by neviu, 28 April 2013 - 04:45 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Neverfar, on 27 April 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

I can't decide whether I want to laugh or frown and shake my head whenever someone online pushes "realism" or "modern knowledge" in a fictional universe to demand to change how things are known to work.

Taking the "realism" thing too far, the Mechs shouldn't even have cockpits. Why not remote control or even autonymous drones? Doesn't that sound fun? Why fight in battlegrounds at all when automated aircraft or spacecraft could deliver relativistic velocity payloads back and forth with no need for a battleground at all? That's because that's not a fun game. It's not even a fun setting.

Methinks you missed the point... especially if you think I was arguing for realism... I'm arguing FOR Battletech logic, not realism [though there is an amount of that to be had.]

Mechwarrior is, first and formost, a Simulation of Battletech, an aproximation of how those machines work, within the universe presented, not within our own universe.