143 replies to this topic

[topgun505]

Hylius, on 18 April 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

There's no denying it: poptarting is driving a lot of people off.

I've spent somewhere between $250-300 on this game over the past year. And I'd have no problems spending just as much again over time.

But

I am literally a hairs breath away from just dropping the game completely ... mainly due to pop-sniping.

It just isn't fun and doesn't contribute towards the depth of the game in any way.

And ... from what I understand, the powers that be are having 'discussions' regarding it ... but it doesn't sound like anything is being planned for the near future to balance it. So either they don't really play the game outside of their little test group, or they are adamant supporters of it.

I just love people who say "Well if you don't like it ... bring one yourself." The surest sign in a game that a mechanic is broken or unbalanced is that the only good counter of it, is more of the same. Yes it may be a valid tactic on its own ... but when you are seeing 75+% of the team compositions being made up of such builds THAT CONSTITUTES A PROBLEM.

But like I said ... the biggest problem is just that it is no fun. Seeing 6 out of 8 mechs on each team popping and sniping, shifting a little, popping and sniping.

YAWN.

I can understand if it isn't balanced and it will get fixed soon and this will just be an unpleasant chapter in the history of the game ... but if this is the way if is going to be for the long haul ... then there are much better things out there to waste my time and money on.

[Glythe]

Hylius, on 18 April 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

There's no denying it: poptarting is driving a lot of people off.

I'm all for sniping. I enjoy it from time to time. But frankly, it needs a skill factor. That's not what we have currently. It's not the weapon's fault that the game mechanics themselves aid their usage.

Also, optionally, as a little sidenote, you could take a page out of Planetside 2's book. They have jumpjets too. But the accuracy is laughable while using them. The idea of hitting anyone outside of, say, 30m, is silly. Poptarting doesn't happen there, and wouldn't even if they could use a sniper rifle. I'm pretty sure 'Mechs, geared for land warfare, would understandably have targeting problems while in flight.

+1 forTruth

[Keifomofutu]

Could you imagine if planetside 2 let the jump jet class also have access to sniper rifles with perfect accuracy while in the air?

Well I guess you don't really have to imagine what that would be like do you? Or for another example imagine the Vanu Hovertank had JJ's as well.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 01 May 2013 - 09:45 PM.

[Denno]

Just remember that everything seems to happen glacially slow here, but stuffs gonna change. Poptarting is just another bump like the Dragon knockdowns, Strk Cats, LRM opness, and Light invulnerability of the past. My biggest annoyance is currently the bugs, discos and ctd's.

[ThunderHart]

Its a valid tactic adapted.

[Greyfyl]

DV McKenna, on 27 April 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

The problem is, too many people make bias suggestions designed to remove jump sniping entirely because it goes against their brawling playstyle.

Very few people suggest options to bring them both into line and make both viable.

Jump Jets should produce heat, and they should introduce moderate shake but nothing over the top.

There should never ever be any random mechanics to deal with

The main problem is...the weapons that the sniper is using will beat the living snot out of me in my brawler even if I do manage to sneak up on him and get close.

[Sheraf]

Use the cover

[Vodrin Thales]

3N3RGY, on 18 April 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

There will always be jump sniping /pop tarting.

It has ALWAYS been this way. The game naturally evolves this way as players get better.

Novices run in the open and "brawl"; real players know , that it requires strategy to "cover" your mech and shoot precisely, like in any FPS game.

THESE ARE THE SAME TACTICS USED IN COUNTERSTRIKE, BATTLEFIELD, AND CALL OF DUTY.

Most elite Mechwarrior pilots, funny enough, are veterans of these games as-well, and brought these tactics over.

Also, jump sniping /pop tarting takes much more skill than you mentioned, as you have to lead your shots and the mech does "wobble" and throws your aim off. Also, "pros" try to find the minimum distance to clear the hill and manage heat.

So in conclusion, please open your mind to other superior /advanced play styles and the elite players that employ them.

Please then tell me why we almost never saw pop tart snipers, even in 8 mans, until after PPC's were buffed with reduction in heat production and increased projectile speed? Were all these players coming from other games with jump sniping taking months to figure out how to do it here? Even after the PPC buff you would never see more than 2 jump snipers on a team for the first month or so. Then came the LRM overbuff and resulting missile nerf. Since then jump snipers are everywhere.

I will bet that if PPC's were reverted to their pre-buff stats and other weapons were buffed that you would see a sudden and dramatic decrease in the numbers of all these jump snipers that have supposedly evolved to a more efficient way of killing.

Edited by Vodrin Thales, 14 May 2013 - 10:51 AM.

[Vodrin Thales]

Greyfyl, on 14 May 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

The main problem is...the weapons that the sniper is using will beat the living snot out of me in my brawler even if I do manage to sneak up on him and get close.

This simply isn't true if you are in a brawler of equal or better tonnage. If you engage them inside of 200 meters you should win every time if your skill level is equal to the snipers. You should be good enough to put your SRM and AC20 based damage or SRM and laser based damage almost entirely on the ST or legs at that range. And if you can you will outdamage the sniper.

It's even worse for him if he has been sniping at other targets while you approached and built up some heat. The trick is to get to 200 meters without getting torn up, or ending up in a situation where your one brawler is engaging 5 sniper solo.

[InRev]

Greyfyl, on 14 May 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

The main problem is...the weapons that the sniper is using will beat the living snot out of me in my brawler even if I do manage to sneak up on him and get close.

Bingo.

Snipers dominating at range is one thing. That's understandable, even desired. It's their raison d'etre. But when "snipers" dominate at ALL ranges, including within the domain of the "brawler", there's a balance problem.

I'm ok with using cover to avoid sniper fire and get into knife range. I've played World of Tanks, I know how to avoid arty. However, in the current meta, when I do so I still get dropped by 4+ ERPPCs at 120 meters. There just does not appear to be a valid reason to bring a brawler build if a so-called sniper build can do it all. Hell, getting close probably makes it easier for the high alpha builds because they can more efficiently pick out the weak point in your armor, or blast off a leg if you're a light/fast medium.

There simply is no way to "adapt" to the current meta without just mimicking it, and that isn't adaptation. If there is only one valid (ie: successful) play-style in the game (high alpha, long range), then there is a problem. Trying to encourage a more varying experience shouldn't be disdained. I know people like to be invincible at all ranges, but it's not a good way to foster enjoyment across a wide-ranging gaming demographic. And face it, if everyone just quits because they don't actually enjoy the high alpha, long range meta, it doesn't matter how skillful you are or how valid you feel your play-style is because there will be no one left to instagib.

Bottom line, this is a game, not a job. People don't have to play it. If more diverse play-styles aren't capable of success, people will, in fact, take their ball and leave. One may find it petty, but it's a fact. People have to understand that when these discussions are held. I know that I personally am not greatly enjoying the current meta and, although I am still playing because at the core of this game there is some great stuff, there are times when I genuinely wonder if it's more hassle than fun.

So I ask, what is more important? A meta that allows min/maxers to stat-pad at the expense of the health of the game, or a more inclusive experience with the potential for long-term success?

[Vodrin Thales]

InRev, on 14 May 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Bingo.

Snipers dominating at range is one thing. That's understandable, even desired. It's their raison d'etre. But when "snipers" dominate at ALL ranges, including within the domain of the "brawler", there's a balance problem.

I'm ok with using cover to avoid sniper fire and get into knife range. I've played World of Tanks, I know how to avoid arty. However, in the current meta, when I do so I still get dropped by 4+ ERPPCs at 120 meters. There just does not appear to be a valid reason to bring a brawler build if a so-called sniper build can do it all. Hell, getting close probably makes it easier for the high alpha builds because they can more efficiently pick out the weak point in your armor, or blast off a leg if you're a light/fast medium.

There simply is no way to "adapt" to the current meta without just mimicking it, and that isn't adaptation. If there is only one valid (ie: successful) play-style in the game (high alpha, long range), then there is a problem. Trying to encourage a more varying experience shouldn't be disdained. I know people like to be invincible at all ranges, but it's not a good way to foster enjoyment across a wide-ranging gaming demographic. And face it, if everyone just quits because they don't actually enjoy the high alpha, long range meta, it doesn't matter how skillful you are or how valid you feel your play-style is because there will be no one left to instagib.

Bottom line, this is a game, not a job. People don't have to play it. If more diverse play-styles aren't capable of success, people will, in fact, take their ball and leave. One may find it petty, but it's a fact. People have to understand that when these discussions are held. I know that I personally am not greatly enjoying the current meta and, although I am still playing because at the core of this game there is some great stuff, there are times when I genuinely wonder if it's more hassle than fun.

So I ask, what is more important? A meta that allows min/maxers to stat-pad at the expense of the health of the game, or a more inclusive experience with the potential for long-term success?

I still win with brawlers (assault brawlers anyways) in close, but that said I think PPC/ERPPC's along with gauss rifles do need a bit of an "adjustment". Add some heat generation back to PPC's and increase the cooldown slightly on the gauss and we should be good.

[Fate 6]

Hylius, on 18 April 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

2) Movement affects aim. It's simple physics. If I'm moving left and I throw something, the object I throw is going to move slightly left as well. The faster I move left, the more the object I throw moves left. The same applies for weapons fire. If I'm accelerating upwards, my shots go higher than where I am. If I'm in a light going 150kph, my aim should be adjusted accordingly. Think of the poptarter: on his way up, he has to aim low. On his way down, he has to aim high. On his apex, he has to aim just right. And that's assuming he's doing a straight up and down and no side movement. Suddenly it's a wee bit harder.

Ok, I had to stop when I started reading this part. This is entirely not true. You think the movie Wanted is accurate? Not in the slightest. The bullet will have a sideways velocity while in the barrel with respect to the ground, but when it leaves the barrel there is no force causing it to go sideways anymore, and it will go straight instead. Otherwise you would see people curving bullets around things all day.

EDIT: Let me clarify further: The bullet has no velocity or acceleration with respect to the gun, so when it leaves the gun it goes straight out of the point from where it was launched. It does not matter that the gun was moving, because the bullet is going straight out of the barrel and has no space to gain a sideways velocity while inside that barrel. The bullet will only be affected by forces on it once it leaves the barrel.

Edited by Fate 6, 14 May 2013 - 11:08 AM.

[Burakumin1979]

Hylius, on 18 April 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

In theory, LRMs would help, but they're useless.

That is actually how I deal with poptarters. I lock them on their ascension, fire my 50 lrm's, tag them til they aren't visible and my 3.5 seconds of target decay whack them in the face even after they land behind cover. I have to make sure I am placed correctly so that I'm not getting mountainside hits, but Artemis equipped LRM's with target decay seem to get a really good firing trajectory on poptarts.

[Roland]

Honestly, if you want to reduce jump-sniping (I'm not saying I do though), all you need to do is roll back the previous change to JJ's which made their thrust front-loaded.

That change is what enabled jumpsniping. Without that change, you can't effectively jump snipe because you rise up too slowly.

[Felbombling]

InRev, on 14 May 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

So I ask, what is more important? A meta that allows min/maxers to stat-pad at the expense of the health of the game, or a more inclusive experience with the potential for long-term success?

I cannot help but think that PGI is catering to the wrong group of people when I read this question.

[cyberFluke]

A topic I started a long time ago to discuss this got shouted down by the console kiddies that firmly believe "Skill" is the ability to point and click. I'm going to quote myself twice here, balls to the hubris.

Quote

A work in progress, still a few kinks to work out, but I reckon it's a sound idea. It's been around the houses a few times before, but I think a lot of the balance issues we've seen over the course of MW:O's beta to date have been magnified by... Well, I'll explain, it gets a bit notey at the end or "The Wall Of Text" ™ Would have been much worse.

Not sure about anyone else, but I'm a little sick of being taken out by cheesy, stupid builds of mechs. From 6 PPC or 6 Large Laser Stalkers coring me out in two salvoes, to Jump sniping toss pieces that rely on the tactic that ensured an end to competitive play in the last official MechWarrior game winning by sheer volume of fire sent downrange.

I'm aware there are a large number of very loud... *ahem* misguided souls... that will attempt to maintain the status quo. Frankly, maintaining such a position is detrimental to MW:O and as such, the entire future of the MW franchise. I'm sure I don't have to point out that the last gasp of the franchise is right here. I'm asking you to not put your foot on the back of it's neck, just because it doesn't look like you remember it.

How it should work:
Like a modern shooter. As you move faster, your crosshair gets larger. This signifies and simulates inaccuracy due to movement. Any rounds/shots fired are randomly placed within the crosshair, the larger the crosshair, the more inaccurate the shot can be. The proposed system would place each fired weapon within the crosshair. **Example** (Purely hypothetical situation for descriptive value only) An AWS-9M; one ERPPC on the right arm, three large lasers, one on each torso. Mech standing still on solid ground with no heat aiming at enemy mech 500m away. Alpha Strike; all weapons fired at once, all strike the dead centre of the near pixel perfect crosshair aimed at the enemy CT. Heat jumps to 34%, crosshair enlarges to match. Alpha Strike again; ERPPC hits enemy left arm, LL 1 and 2 hit the right torso and the 3rd LL hits the head. Heat jumps to 62% (mech has cooled some heat while weaps recharged).

Now, should the next move be to chain fire, to allow more accurate fire due to cooling, gamble and alpha again? Take cover and cool down in order to better target the enemy?

Things that should enlarge the crosshair:

• Heat. Higher heat, larger crosshair.
  
• Velocity. Higher velocity, larger crosshair.
  
• Use of jump jets. While burning fuel, crosshair gets larger.
  
• Falling or sliding down a slope. In either scenario, the crosshair enlarges quickly, not instant, but very quickly.
  
• Taking kinetically inflicted damage, ie. an AC shell to the dome will ring your mech's bell a little. This would "pulse" the crosshair so rapid, regular hits would make accurate fire difficult at best.

Things this system would help deal with:

• Extreme Range Boating, to some extent, boating in general.
  
• Mechs dying faster than intended. Some explanation here; PGI doubled armour values to attempt to make fights last longer than 20 seconds. As we players are way more accurate than canon mechwarriors, we're drilling through sections of mechs without much wasted damage, lag/hitbox/bug issues aside.
  
• LRMs being unable to find their "support" niche. With the proper LRM fix in the works, this would add to their "fear factor" without them requiring "death from the sky" damage numbers.
  
• Poptarting. Would actually require a lot of skill with such a system. For example; one would have to time the shot to be right at the peak of the jump to have any accuracy. Indiscriminate, hyper accurate fire from in the air would be near impossible.

Quote

Dumbing down the game as they have has created this crapfest we all know will flop on release. The beancounter tosspots in charge seem completely ignorant of how fickle the weak minded idiots they're attempting to target with this watered down ghost are. By diluting and simplifying the game they are removing the depth of play that keeps a player playing for more than a month. No-one I introduced to the game is still playing, out of nearly fifty people I've gotten to play MW:O, ***ZERO*** still play. That includes seven paying founders, two of which got a refund. They're not even interested in seeing how it's progressed since they last played. They've seen the direction the game has taken and written it off.

There's no more to aiming than pointing your crosshair at the target, leading if the target is moving, then repeatedly alpha striking till the target is dead. I'll repeat what I've said before, my young niece can point a f*cking mouse and click, that seems to be all the "skill" required here. No thought as to positioning for the best shot, speed of your own machine, friction/inclination/sheer strength of the terrain you're on, or *any* other factor. Just point and click.

The supposed "depth" that will be added with "Community Warfare" is already shaping up to be a dull fractured mess in an attempt to persuade players of other games to try their hand here. Backtracking on statements made to sell founders packs to core fans, then telling them "You're not our target audience, so we're changing the spec, but taking your money anyway." isn't being as quietly forgotten as PGIGP would like either.

I think the reason I'm so bitter and annoyed about this is that I personally got suckered for $120. I was lied to and am having the p*ss most thoroughly taken out of me by some beancounting f*cktards that are making money hand over fist. Despite my anger and frustration I still believe someone somewhere did originally want to make an awesome new MechWarrior game, but they signed it away to some greedy f*ckwit company to get it off the ground. Unfortunately, that means the original game will never be produced, as the avarice driven person thing at the top won't make as many zeroes.

Damn, I'm disappointed with MW:O.

Edited by cyberFluke, 14 May 2013 - 11:34 AM.

[zolop]

CancR, on 18 April 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

Once again, Battle tech is the solution when PGI is the problem.

1) JJ produce heat. Alot of it. In real times terms 25% increase on take off and a 10% increase for 1 second sustained jump.

2)Weight balance per lance: for each four man group give them 200-235 tons max. This limits how many mechs that can simply take as many heavy and assaults they want. It's important as well to have each lance be 235 tons a lance and not do any sort of cumulative wieght per 4as that will get min maxed to 4 atals' and 4 spiders or something.

Weight balance per lance will make players take roles and play a smart game, and not line up to play press m1 warrior.

A good idea. In relation to battle-tech, really wish PGI spent time making more diverse missions too, where for example we had to protect a battle-tech base (IS or Clans) instead just straight deathmatch with no other option to use battle-tech for more strategic play.

[Merced256]

just gut PPCs.

If you nerfs PPCs hard enough they'll move to either brawling or gauss sniping, both require more skill and gauss has the added benefit of requiring ammo.

[cyberFluke]

Merced256, on 14 May 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

just gut PPCs.

If you nerfs PPCs hard enough they'll move to either brawling or gauss sniping, both require more skill and gauss has the added benefit of requiring ammo.

The door is that way ===>

On the other hand, if you have a suggestion that isn't so full of retardation it should be institutionalised, please, feel free to outline it for us.

[YueFei]

Fate 6, on 14 May 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Ok, I had to stop when I started reading this part. This is entirely not true. You think the movie Wanted is accurate? Not in the slightest. The bullet will have a sideways velocity while in the barrel with respect to the ground, but when it leaves the barrel there is no force causing it to go sideways anymore, and it will go straight instead. Otherwise you would see people curving bullets around things all day.

EDIT: Let me clarify further: The bullet has no velocity or acceleration with respect to the gun, so when it leaves the gun it goes straight out of the point from where it was launched. It does not matter that the gun was moving, because the bullet is going straight out of the barrel and has no space to gain a sideways velocity while inside that barrel. The bullet will only be affected by forces on it once it leaves the barrel.

The bullet carries your momentum with it, even when it leaves the barrel. If you're flying forward at 200 meters per second, and fire a gun that launches a bullet at 1000 meters per second, that bullet flies forward at 1200 meters per second. If you're going backward at 200 meters per second and fire, that bullet will be going 800 meters per second.

And if you're going sideways at 200 meters per second and shoot, the bullet will fly at an angle of 11.3 degrees at 1019.8 meters per second.

Air resistance and aerodynamics of the projectile will of course affect it during its flight, but at the moment it leaves the barrel, it will be flying at an angle relative to a stationary observer. It's not about the shot "curving" or anything like that, it's just simply momentum being conserved and transfered.