87 replies to this topic

[Bobzilla]

How do knockdowns and JJ's interact (can you fall down from a bad landing, do JJ's stand you up faster)? Looking a bit forward there may be no reason to change it at all, or maybe more reason to change it more severly.

[Skyfaller]

Cattra Kell, on 18 April 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Thoughts – opinions?

If you have a problem with jump sniping then you dont know how to aim. These guys are literally tossing themselves into the air at VERY slow speeds for YOU to shoot at them.

Fact: It is 10x more difficult to aim while jetting UP..as in, right after the obstacle they are hiding in is cleared...than to aim at someone jetting up doing this. The moment the terrain block is cleared the poptarter has to find a target, aim and shoot. The person waiting for the poptart to emerge knows where the poptart is coming out of and can get in a shot and go back into cover.

I cant tell you how much I love poptarts. Every map I see them I power up my PPCs and ERLL's and thump them off the air.

You can also airstrike or artillery strike them. aim at them when they in the air, click the airstrike...

and since the thing aims for the ground inmediately below the object you aim it will hit the spot where he lands in. If you do it when he is jetting UP the strike will hit him when he lands.

[Bobzilla]

Skyfaller, on 19 April 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

If you have a problem with jump sniping then you dont know how to aim. These guys are literally tossing themselves into the air at VERY slow speeds for YOU to shoot at them.

Fact: It is 10x more difficult to aim while jetting UP..as in, right after the obstacle they are hiding in is cleared...than to aim at someone jetting up doing this. The moment the terrain block is cleared the poptarter has to find a target, aim and shoot. The person waiting for the poptart to emerge knows where the poptart is coming out of and can get in a shot and go back into cover.

I cant tell you how much I love poptarts. Every map I see them I power up my PPCs and ERLL's and thump them off the air.

You can also airstrike or artillery strike them. aim at them when they in the air, click the airstrike...

and since the thing aims for the ground inmediately below the object you aim it will hit the spot where he lands in. If you do it when he is jetting UP the strike will hit him when he lands.

Actually both parties can just not move the reticle, and the aim stayes lined up. I don't see why you think its 10x harder to hit a target while jumping. Both parties have the same window of opportunity, but the jumper can choose that window for an advantage. The jumper is alway patially under cover for an advantage. Both parties are shooting at the same size target (other than cover we know the jumper is under). Jumper can easily dodge by just falling, another advatage to the jumper. So assuming both parties know how to aim, the advatage is for the jumper, which is why people do it, if there wasn't an advatange we wouldn't see it.

And airstrikes or artty can also be shot on a person not poptarting, so that point makes no difference. If you jump strait up and down they will know where you will pop up, but you know where they are the same as both parties have to find each other. If they move while your down, you can move while your down, no difference.

[CyberBlade]

Okay my first post: MWO Online = Nerf, Reduce, OP,Pugs,Syncdrops,Bugs,Aimbot,Ecm, EcmRavens,Ptw,Poptarts,PPCnoobs,Ellofaill,Lrm Boats,SrmBoats,AC20Jagers,LLBoats,Noobs,Beta,Elite,Etc,Etc.



LOL , Love this game.

[KOKO]

I also vote for it... shaking would help much like ECM did in LRM standing Wars. Would also make more sense to the tabletop, because in jumping you have the biggest modifier to hit.

Edited by KOKO, 19 April 2013 - 06:37 AM.

[Regina Redshift]

I would make it effect an existing mechanic: convergence.

If you're going to be jump-sniping, you'll be jumping from behind cover into the open. Just make the weapons converge at half speed--or not at all--while jumping.

This fix would not hurt brawlers who use jumping to help line-up snap shots, and would not hurt other forms up jump-striking.

--

The other change I'd make is to have collision damage go straight to the internals. You botch a landing, and your leg structure gets damage proportional to your mass and velocity. If you both a landing IRL, your body hurts, the sole of your shoe doesn't get ripped off.

[Cattra Kell]

Reno Blade, on 19 April 2013 - 02:48 AM, said:

Yes to more shake and more heat!
Please add a poll with "Yes, I agree", "No, I disagree", "Abstain" to follow the Admin rules for easier collected suggestions.

Added

[DeadlyNerd]

Even the BT says that JJS affect mech's aiming significantly. It boggles the mind how PGI overlooked that important part when implementing mech's with JJs.

[Mason Grimm]

DeadlyNerd, on 19 April 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

Even the BT says that JJS affect mech's aiming significantly. It boggles the mind how PGI overlooked that important part when implementing mech's with JJs.

I would say that comes under "polish" than under "implementation". Right now they are getting critical systems online and feedback like this helps during the polish passes.

[Cattra Kell]

Remember: Feedback is always welcomed. So far what I am seeing from comments matches up with my talks on Reddit and with Kong about how shake would be the best route and people are a bit hesitant (and rightfully so) on heat increases on larger jump jets.

I do enjoy what some people from the community have suggested and thought I would share them for people to discuss:

1. Make chance of falling a variable if you do not thrust to soften the landing (once collisions are placed back into the game) - will reduce the height which the player can go - risk/reward type system - do you jump higher to get the better shot and risk falling down and being immobile for a period of time?

2. Make JJ's fuel take longer to recharge for the heavier mechs -
Meaning Lights have faster JJ recharge then say a Highlander. This would be almost a play balance like I suggested with the heat increase but without the heat where Light & medium mechs would have little to no impact as we currently see while heavies and assaults would have more time on the ground behind cover before they could pop back up.

3. Make JJ's more of a instant pop - I.E big thrust and fast launch into the air - some hang time - then fall back down. Makes the time to acquire and line up a target harder to do but still able to do - this + ridicule shake would mean there would be a "gold" time at the arch/peak of the jump where you could hit the target no problem - but on the way up and way down would be harder.

Edited by Cattra Kell, 21 April 2013 - 02:28 PM.

[Capt Cole 117]

Cattra Kell, on 18 April 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Modules

With this addition of ridicule shake you could also have a module set added that would reduce ridicule shake and even a pilot skill to reduce heat produced by jump jets.

I got my first module less then two weeks after open beta, if a must have module is released almost everybody will be carrying it within a month and only the newest of the newbies won't be able to poptart.

[Leetskeet]

As far as the poll goes, Yes to shake, Abstain to heat. Adding heat is something that could potentially render jumpjets completely useless, so it's something that would require a bit more consideration.

There's still no reason that jumpjets aren't based on something similar to how MWLL's worked.

Simply heavily increase the acceleration and set the jump to a forced 45 degree angle and MAGICALLY you now have jumpjets that actually jump and are mobility tools instead of atrocious game ruining tools.

All these years and they've gone right back to MW4

[Cattra Kell]

Capt Cole 117, on 19 April 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

I got my first module less then two weeks after open beta, if a must have module is released almost everybody will be carrying it within a month and only the newest of the newbies won't be able to poptart.

Yeah I agree - I was just pitching it though but I agree now after reviewing that the module doesn't make much sense. The way I was thinking was that with both the shake and the heat added was that even if you have the cross hair shake slightly reduced (not completely removed) if you alpha then you will still over-heat and shutdown and you would have to make the choice between other modules. The problem at the moment there is no real go to modules at the moment and as such this would be the first one and as such would most likely not be recommended to implement.

[Skyfaller]

Look, if you think jump sniping is done by leaving the aimpoint pre-aimed you got yourself a really stupid enemy mech sitting in the open for you. That is sadly hardly the case. You jump up, scan for target, aim, shoot, drop. The anti-poptarter knows where the jump sniper is and just shoots him as he emerges from the terrain cover and backs into his own cover before the jump sniper can aim at him.

I cant stress it again how EASY it is to drop these guys with PPCs and ERLLs.

Now, you want to make the jump sniping less 'easy' to do? Heat nor jet shake will do much. Jet shake would just make light mechs with jets not functional. Heat doesnt matter to the jump snipers. Convergence wont change them either.

The best way to fix it is a change to the jumpjets themselves:

Since the game already is able to determine if a mech is moving forward or not when jets are active (up vs forward-up movement) then all they need to do is add a modifier to the jets: If mech is traveling slower than X kph do not provide initial thrust bonus & spew a lot of smoke.

What this does:

The poptarter would need to burn half his fuel just lifting off...and in the meantime generating a nicely visible smoke cloud that rises up and is visible 10~15m above the jumping mech BEFORE the mech actually lifts off.

That way if a mech is hiding behind a hill and wants to pop tart.. he hits the jets.. smoke belches 10~15m above his mech... 2 or 3 seconds of thrusting later the mech pops up from behind the hill.

In essence this gives away his position before he lifts off. A moving mech (at X speed minimum) does not have this and instead receives the current thrust bonus on ignition + smaller smoke cloud.

[Agamemnon78]

YES, definitely shake AND longer cooldown for the heavier JJ-builds would be most appreciated.
JJ have to be a "Joker", to give an edge to a build. Not to make poptarting the most prominent kind of playstyle.
Its ridiculous and dishonourable to bunnyhop every 5-7 Seconde and blurrt out an pre-arranged Alpha.
An Highlander has to have an advantage in THOSE situations, an Stalker or Atlas wont have one. So it has access to terrain and routes other Assaults have not. Lights depend on their ability to maneouver so their JJ are well balanced. But from 65 tons up, JJ´s have to be a "joker" at your dealt hand which cannot be used 10 times a minute.

But this ridiculous poptarting spoils THIS game, as it has spoiled MW4.

Not because its overly imba or op. But you cant ignore it as well. So the whole fight isnt any more about outmanoevering and tactis but about poptart and counter-poptart.

[Sam Slade]

JJ heat? Spare a thought for all the Light Mech pilots out there... JJing is a good way to escape when you're pn your heat limit.

[Mason Grimm]

Skyfaller, on 20 April 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

Look, if you think jump sniping is done by leaving the aimpoint pre-aimed you got yourself a really stupid enemy mech sitting in the open for you. That is sadly hardly the case. You jump up, scan for target, aim, shoot, drop. The anti-poptarter knows where the jump sniper is and just shoots him as he emerges from the terrain cover and backs into his own cover before the jump sniper can aim at him.

I cant stress it again how EASY it is to drop these guys with PPCs and ERLLs.

Now, you want to make the jump sniping less 'easy' to do? Heat nor jet shake will do much. Jet shake would just make light mechs with jets not functional. Heat doesnt matter to the jump snipers. Convergence wont change them either.

The best way to fix it is a change to the jumpjets themselves:

Since the game already is able to determine if a mech is moving forward or not when jets are active (up vs forward-up movement) then all they need to do is add a modifier to the jets: If mech is traveling slower than X kph do not provide initial thrust bonus & spew a lot of smoke.

What this does:

The poptarter would need to burn half his fuel just lifting off...and in the meantime generating a nicely visible smoke cloud that rises up and is visible 10~15m above the jumping mech BEFORE the mech actually lifts off.

That way if a mech is hiding behind a hill and wants to pop tart.. he hits the jets.. smoke belches 10~15m above his mech... 2 or 3 seconds of thrusting later the mech pops up from behind the hill.

In essence this gives away his position before he lifts off. A moving mech (at X speed minimum) does not have this and instead receives the current thrust bonus on ignition + smaller smoke cloud.

This is an interesting idea!

[Bobzilla]

There's really nothing wrong with JJ's, just people using the best exploits they can find. Poptarting is the result of poor game design the more i think about it.

High damage alpha strikes, from weapons with pinpoint accuracy, that can be boated, have all their drawbacks negated with the ability to be behind cover, choose when you want to fire that alpha, and only being out of cover for a fraction of a second. Doing all these things is really smart, but just makes for cheesy gameplay.

[Fencer]

The main issue is that JJ currently let you jump straight up, allowing poptarting. Shake is ok but it can also be solved by making the jets work in an ARC instead. 1 meter forward for each meter up or while powered for down. Can still do some shooting in the air then but not this bunny hopping behind a barrier. Heat is not an answer, they can just stay behind cover till it cools off and would only increase the intervals, not stop it.

[EvangelionUnit]

Skyfaller, on 20 April 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

Spoiler

Look, if you think jump sniping is done by leaving the aimpoint pre-aimed you got yourself a really stupid enemy mech sitting in the open for you. That is sadly hardly the case. You jump up, scan for target, aim, shoot, drop. The anti-poptarter knows where the jump sniper is and just shoots him as he emerges from the terrain cover and backs into his own cover before the jump sniper can aim at him.

I cant stress it again how EASY it is to drop these guys with PPCs and ERLLs.

Now, you want to make the jump sniping less 'easy' to do? Heat nor jet shake will do much. Jet shake would just make light mechs with jets not functional. Heat doesnt matter to the jump snipers. Convergence wont change them either.

The best way to fix it is a change to the jumpjets themselves:

Since the game already is able to determine if a mech is moving forward or not when jets are active (up vs forward-up movement) then all they need to do is add a modifier to the jets: If mech is traveling slower than X kph do not provide initial thrust bonus & spew a lot of smoke.

What this does:

The poptarter would need to burn half his fuel just lifting off...and in the meantime generating a nicely visible smoke cloud that rises up and is visible 10~15m above the jumping mech BEFORE the mech actually lifts off.

That way if a mech is hiding behind a hill and wants to pop tart.. he hits the jets.. smoke belches 10~15m above his mech... 2 or 3 seconds of thrusting later the mech pops up from behind the hill.

In essence this gives away his position before he lifts off. A moving mech (at X speed minimum) does not have this and instead receives the current thrust bonus on ignition + smaller smoke cloud.

movinge mechs could generate the same amount of smoke, but thanks to their movement it would give everyone the wrong position, so that moving along the lines and sniping in movement would be a working tactic.

oh and a problem i allready see with the idea: jump sniper would start to stay far away behind their cover, run to the cover, jump, fire, drop and run in the cover , then walk back and do the same thing again