43 replies to this topic

[Loler skates]

Ravingdork, on 18 April 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

I've mastered every HBK except the 4G. They are perfectly fine. You just have to know how to play the game intelligently, and to adjust your armor to suit your play style.

Me, I have 40 points of armor on the front of my right torso and only 8 on the back. I never turn my back on an enemy unless all my front armor is stripped away already. Short of encountering multiple enemy targets all by my lonesome, I regularly walk away with my right torso intact. Roughly half the games I play see my 4H's AC20 use up all of it's ammo (3 tons).

Spheroid, on 18 April 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

No, he is disparaging every other non-swayback version. I have never found the hunch that vulnerable even on my 4G. On the 4P you have to destroy the armor and all the internals. It even has natural critpadding when you put 6 mlas and heatsinks in there as well. With a standard 250 and speed tweak no hunchback should be taking that much damage if played smartly.

FrostCollar, on 18 April 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

It's not the designers fault. Big weapons require a ton of space and thus require large mountings. Unfortunately, that's absolutely not the case in MWO so mechs that have them provide some obvious targets.

Just look at the Hollander. You needed a mounting that preposterously oversized just to fit a gauss. However, when it fits right into a Raven or Spider's MG mount, a mech like that would be laughably underpowered in MWO even compared to those generally ineffective builds.



He's talking about other Hunchie variants.

man the low elo justifications.

Sorry dudors if you are in a hunchback with weapons in the hunch I can blow them off even if you torso twist away. What you think something that sticks out past all your other hitboxes can't be hit just because you turned a little?

[FrostCollar]

Loler skates, on 21 April 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Sorry dudors if you are in a hunchback with weapons in the hunch I can blow them off even if you torso twist away. What you think something that sticks out past all your other hitboxes can't be hit just because you turned a little?

What are you even talking about? And why did you quote me, when I was saying is "yeah, the Hunch's Hunch is pretty large, but that's canon?"

Loler skates, on 21 April 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

man the low elo justifications.

Oh, of course. You're too pro for this thread.

[Loler skates]

FrostCollar, on 21 April 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

What are you even talking about? And why did you quote me, when I was saying is "yeah, the Hunch's Hunch is pretty large, but that's canon?"


Oh, of course. You're too pro for this thread.

if you think you can protect the hunch by simply torso twisting away yes.

evidently.

[FrostCollar]

Loler skates, on 21 April 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

if you think you can protect the hunch by simply torso twisting away yes.

evidently.

Which I don't?

[LackofCertainty]

The one hunchback variant that I really have issues with is the 4g, simply because it has wasted hardpoints. Because MG's aren't currently worth using, there's no good setup for putting 3 ballistics in 1 location. (yes, 3xAC2's are fun, but not all that great power-wise)

There are two ways around this issue.

1.You can play as a fire support.
Stick with the team, only peek out and shoot when the enemy has already engaged. Everyone knows where to shoot when it comes to a 4g, so you'd best keep that RT hidden as much as possible.

2.You can trick enemies by leaving the hump empty/under loaded.
If you jam a PPC into both arms, and toss an ML or MPL in your head, you'll have a fairly solid mech, and a lot of enemies will still focus on your empty RT, just because it's so ingrained in everyone's mind that the hump takes priority. They're busy shooting your RT, while you're busy shooting their CT (or ST's if they have XL) so you should come out on top.

Tip #2 works with a lot of mechs. When I was trying out different loadouts for my atlas, I found that people still tried to cut off my RT, even when all I loaded there was 2x MG's. People are creatures of habit.

[Maxx Blue]

Yeah, the 4G can be a cruel mistress. Luckily the right rear torso hitbox is tiny so you can dump almost all your armor in the front...which is huge. You can try odd stuff like dropping a LLAS or PPC in your left arm, but generally I just deal with being gimpy once the hunch is gone. Recently, I've been running dual UAC5's, but I've tried all sorts of different builds without a real clear winner. I still like my hunchies, but that massive, under-armored side torso does get frustrating. I hated my 4J and sold it after I got my basic skills, but that was mostly due to the fact that I also has several Cats and they are vastly better missile boats. I love my 4SP, but I'll always have a soft spot for the 4G even if it really has no advantage in this game.

[Mypa333]

Since you moved from a non-hunch hunchie, you should pay more attention on the battlefield.
The 4 G is a great mech but not for direct brawling. I used to play with the AC20 and MLs and then switched to LBX, to UACs to AC2 .

The best move I made was to get the Gauss + MLs. I had a very good kill ratio with the standard engine and good armor.
Always assisting a heavy or assault or even pairing up with another medium, usually a LRM boat.

The 4G cannot be played as the 4SP.

[John MatriX82]

HBKs have many hardpoints, many more than those you can find in either Cents or Trebuchets. The hunch is their main drawback and the engine cap to 260 is quite annoying, I think they should be buffed a bit to the values of the Cents (275).

The 4SP is certainly the best, but also the 4P with the current meta and HSR for lasers is a real pain if you can manage its heat, nothing will be safe with you around in that thing and lights will melt like snow in the summer.

About the remaining 3.. oh well, the 4J is a 4SP with 1 more energy and the biggest hunch along with that of the 4G. These two are those I really avoided, if you want to brawl the 4SP is absolutely superior to the 4J, the latter can be useful as a small LRM boat, but with fast trebuchets around it's virtually obsolete, since TBTs can go XL.. XL on any hunch is suicidal.

The 4G.. oh dear.. nope. 4H is way better unless you really want multiple ACs that with 50 tons are a pain to find room for. It's much better to go with an AC 20 or eventually a GR, albeit it's very risky. So.. go with the 4H.


In the hunchies you must never be the first mech the enemy sees, you must always stay within your main force and try to support assaults or other heavies shaking off the lights annoying them, or focusing fire with your AC 20 against the targets engaged by team mates.

[Karl Streiger]

Aesthir, on 18 April 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

Let me start by saying this: Right now, my favorite mech to pilot is my Hunchback 4SP. Some pulse lasers, a couple of streaks, and a big engine for some speed. It's a light brawler that's just plain fun. So I figured I'd try to level up another hunchie chassis, get closer to unlocking that next level.

Unholy gods, what a mistake.

Whoever designed the hunchback (I'm talking in-game lore, not slighting the developers) must have had some serious mental disability that made him think "Let's design a medium mech with all its weapons in one spot, then make that one spot half the size of the mech." With the exception of the 4SP, all the Hunchies are just like Zed putties: Hit them in one spot and they just fall apart.

The problem is...in the universe in wich the first hunchback was born...there was no alpha striking at 1000m into a single point.
Its the biggest flaw of the ingame hunchback. Kill the RT kill the Mech.

I loved that hunch back in Closed Beta... i loved him so much i was little upset that my founder mech was the Atlas. Because the Hunch was so easy - so sweet to pilot... a dream.
But the right torso neads a serious armor buff...i don't care if it is canon or not. It has to be done...ugly enough that medium mechs with exception of some zombie centurions are near extinction in MWO.

[Apolyon]

Aesthir, on 18 April 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

Let me start by saying this: Right now, my favorite mech to pilot is my Hunchback 4SP. Some pulse lasers, a couple of streaks, and a big engine for some speed. It's a light brawler that's just plain fun. So I figured I'd try to level up another hunchie chassis, get closer to unlocking that next level.

Unholy gods, what a mistake.

Whoever designed the hunchback (I'm talking in-game lore, not slighting the developers) must have had some serious mental disability that made him think "Let's design a medium mech with all its weapons in one spot, then make that one spot half the size of the mech." With the exception of the 4SP, all the Hunchies are just like Zed putties: Hit them in one spot and they just fall apart.

Trying to level this mech, it's like I have a paint scheme with a giant bullseye on my right torso. I don't think I've gone thirty seconds after seeing an enemy before seeing that side of my mech blown off, thus in one or two shots my mech goes from having weapons to not.

I lose a right torso on my 4SP, I lose about half my weapons (a little less, 'cause the 4SP's got a head slot) just like every other good mech out there. On any other chassis though, that torso blows and you're down to 2 energy slots, one of which is in your head and can't hold anything bigger than a medium laser. And even newbies know right where to shoot: it's the big obvious box stuck on the shoulder with a max of 48 armor. I can't even imagine what it would be like for anyone dumb enough to put an XL engine in there. Probably bump into a wall and explode.

I get that we're trying to stay close to the tabletop game and other lore, but if we can't shuffle around some hardpoints so the arms are more than one piddly little energy slot, maybe we can have some more armor on a hitbox that takes up half the size of the mech? Just something that makes me feel less like a duckie at a shooting gallery.

I've thought about this recently as I am trying to improve my hunchback builds and mastery them. I have had the same issue with the hunchback. It seems like the armor on the "hunch" could use a buff. That is the only realistic fix I've thought of.... Use your maneuverablilty to your advantage. Using a XL in a hunchback is basically suicide. But with the limited tonnage its one of your best options for getting enough bang for your buck. Some things to try with the 4G are triple ac2's. Or running around with an AC20 can be quite effective if you wait for the battle to go a little ways before making your appearance. The advantage on the ac2's is you wont have to be in close to do damage, as they have very good range. The ac20 however sings a different song. You want to wait till there are heavies that are stripped of armor or find a good target you know you can kill in 2 - 3 shots before rushing into the fray otherwise you are too lightly armored to stick around those bigger boys for too long. The 4sp right now for me is fun. You can do Quad med pulse and dual streak, seems to be a good solid brawling build against other mediums and lights. But I wouldn't go toe to toe with heavies unless they are already missing good amounts of armor. The other build with that one that I've been running is dual ERPPC's, (yes I joined them, cuz I couldn't beat them). That seemed to be pretty heat efficient with endo steel dhs and an xl360. Anyways one other slight note on that last build is that whoever boresighted the arms on the 4sp is FIRED. . . The reticule is slightly off its actually the top right corner of the circle on the arm reticule that is your hit point. Not the dot in the circle.

Good Luck

[Vashramire]

I've been playing since about last June or July after I bought my founders and got my 4G. Since then I'd say it's my most played mech through all the patches and ups and downs. I've tried many different variations of loadouts and engines (even back when there was no engine cap) and I can safely say I don't fear having an XL in mine. Probably 95% of the time I roll with one because in some cases mobility is your armor. I just recently took my XL out because I want to zombie mech around and pew pew with my head but normally I just get straight cored despite having the massive hump.

Now I know I can't speak for everyone but in my personal experience I actually loose my left torso before the hunch. Why, I have no idea. Bad shots or purposefully aiming there. Hell half the time when I shoot a 4G from behind the hunch, it registers as a hit to the front. It should drop like a rock, but it doesn't. Well piloted it can demolish but you need to be much more aware of enemy positions because a stray gauss might not rip your side off but may make it a larger target. Nothing like targeting a hunchie and his only damage is on his orange/red shoulder. That's about 2 gauss away from destroyed or less if you have a gauss equipped there with no case. In all honesty though, if you are going to build something on a 4G and you are not using the 2 extra ballistics, just move the loadout to a 4H and leave some hardpoints empty. The hunch is slightly smaller and it will perform identical. On occasion I'll throw dual U/AC5's in it, machine guns or AC2's in my 4G and it doesn't do too bad. IMO the 4J has the worst hump since it's super high.

My hunch to me isn't a liability. It's where my killing power comes from and if I am facing you, you should be scared to shoot me. The hunchback(the ones with the hunch) isn't a bad mech or mech design, but usually the victim of a bad pilot or bad positioning.

[xengk]

After the ballistic HSR, I have dust off my 4G(F) and have been making a killing over the weekend.
As mention by several posters, the 4G is a support fire platform. You should always pair up with a brawler heavy or assault.

I find the 4G great at playing whack-a-mole with poptards. Just need to learn the map to know where they most frequently appear, get some cover and zoom in. They moment their head pops up, fire off an AC20 slug at them. After a few shot they generally try to relocated.

The 4G is my main money and GXP earner right now.
My setup is quite close to the stock build, 3MLaz, 1AC20 w/4t, STD200, max amour.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

In TT, an AC20 will give someone a bad day. Light mech? What light mech? Mediums lose limbs and if you get a head shot? Instant death even on an Atlas. The hunch is needed to control the recoil and improves accuracy as a result which makes being a target worth it if you can get in range. The rest of the Hunchbacks (except the 4SP) retained the hunch because a weapon swap is a way easier redesign than having to seriously alter the hardware and allowed the manufacturers to sell the chassis in a variety of different roles.

[Panzerman03]

Practically all mech designs are terrible, which isn't surprising considering they were drawn up by a bunch of nerd TT game designers.

If these things were put together with actual combat in mind, they'd all have narrow and squat silhouettes, with weapons high up for defilade shooting - not unlike the Stalker 3F which is so powerful right now.

[Lugh]

blinkin, on 18 April 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

I WANT A GIANT PPC HANGING OFF OF MY JENNER!!!

i have an ERPPC jenner and i think it would be freaking awesome to see the giant energy cannon hanging off of one side. i want the intimidation and WTF factor to be more prevalent when i play my jenner.

I'll just laugh and dodge until you shut down (it's inevitable) and then shoot you in the face.

[blinkin]

Panzerman03, on 23 April 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Practically all mech designs are terrible, which isn't surprising considering they were drawn up by a bunch of nerd TT game designers.

If these things were put together with actual combat in mind, they'd all have narrow and squat silhouettes, with weapons high up for defilade shooting - not unlike the Stalker 3F which is so powerful right now.

take a look at the lore.

these are not designed by teams of brilliant scientists and engineers. these designs reflect the general opinions of combat. mechwarriors are not modern armored combat regiments. they are knights or samuria that have traded in their horses for giant walking machines with high powered weapons. in this age there is almost no one who even knows what goes into a mech. these mechs are built by automated factories that no one understands, people just know that mechs come out.

[blinkin]

Lugh, on 23 April 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

I'll just laugh and dodge until you shut down (it's inevitable) and then shoot you in the face.

you would be the first. i have some issues leading light mechs, but even there my accuracy is generally around 20% (rough estimate). and actually my shut down is quite evitable, despite popular belief you can release the trigger once in a while. without firing my weapons my jenner has enough heat sinks to cool down completely within a span of 5-6 seconds.

although generally unless the enemy light has left himself an open and easy target (which everyone i have ever faced has made some sort of mistake that allowed me to punch them in the face properly AT LEAST once) i use my lasers 4x small and 1x medium.

so if that is really how you would want to play that fight then i suggest that you never make any mistakes.

Edited by blinkin, 23 April 2013 - 11:12 AM.

[Panzerman03]

blinkin, on 23 April 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

take a look at the lore.

these are not designed by teams of brilliant scientists and engineers. these designs reflect the general opinions of combat. mechwarriors are not modern armored combat regiments. they are knights or samuria that have traded in their horses for giant walking machines with high powered weapons. in this age there is almost no one who even knows what goes into a mech. these mechs are built by automated factories that no one understands, people just know that mechs come out.

Nonsensical lore is not a very good defense of nonsensical mech design.

[blinkin]

Panzerman03, on 23 April 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Nonsensical lore is not a very good defense of nonsensical mech design.

the designs are a primary part of what makes this mechwarrior and not something else. if you want more realistic then we should just bombard targets from orbit and be using tanks for what little ground combat we do.

not saying your suggestions don't have merit, but the changes you suggest would cut out most of what makes this "MechWarrior". i think i would enjoy a game like that alot, but like i said it wouldn't be mechwarrior then.


and the lore is not really nonsensical (or at least no more nonsensical than history). take a look at early musket warfare. we stood our troops in nice neat rows where we then proceeded to roshambo until one side was less dead than the other, because that was the "honorable way to fight wars".

[Wrenchfarm]

Eehhhh, the less you think about the actual practicality of the design of most mechs the better off you'll be. None of this stuff makes sense in any practical way.

From a gameplay point of view, the HBKs nearest rival the Cent also stores most of it's firepower in one place, but with better backup options. The HBK mounts bigger/more weapons but takes a gamble that it might be neutered mid-fight. It makes a kind of sense, HBKs hit harder, Cent's last longer (especially when the shield arm is used well)