62 replies to this topic

[Royalewithcheese]

Roadbeer, on 20 April 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

Like short range weapons to fight off lights?

Wait, you mean an IRL fallible human being driving a slow robot with bad torso twist against a light pilot who presumably knows how to move unpredictably wouldn't be able to hit it in the torso with the two alphas the 6xPPC Stalker gets before overheating? Next thing you'll be telling me that the 6xLLaser Stalker doesn't deliver 100% of those six lasers directly to the CT of the thing it shoots at!

[Bishop Steiner]

I still do.

I love it when they overheat from repeated missed alphas. They are so easy to kill when shutdown.

[Roadbeer]

Royalewithcheese, on 20 April 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

Wait, you mean an IRL fallible human being driving a slow robot with bad torso twist against a light pilot who presumably knows how to move unpredictably wouldn't be able to hit it in the torso with the two alphas the 6xPPC Stalker gets before overheating? Next thing you'll be telling me that the 6xLLaser Stalker doesn't deliver 100% of those six lasers directly to the CT of the thing it shoots at!

Almost shot beer out of my nose.

[One Medic Army]

Forum hiccup.

Edited by One Medic Army, 20 April 2013 - 02:26 PM.

[jeffsw6]

Sadly the PPC boats are very effective in 4-man play. I've grouped with 3 of them in my D-DC and all I've got to do is stand near them to provide cover and fight the occasional opponent who sneaks up close, which is rare because the stalkers can kill anything they can see instantly. Teamwork is OP.

[One Medic Army]

MadPanda, on 20 April 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

The 6ppc stalker fits the max engine with heatsinks in it. You do not fear it? You are a fool.

I have been killed by one once.
I have killed far more than 1 of them.

No I do not fear it, I understand its many many weaknesses.

Edited by One Medic Army, 20 April 2013 - 02:26 PM.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Kaboodle, on 19 April 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

Good times, back when we got laughed at for playing a joke build, instead of cursed for playing a "lame cheap game breaking" one. Funny how the build didn't change, the players did.

Yeah sure. Nothing else changed. Things like...how often it is actually used...*head --> keyboard*

[Ramrod]

I laughed heartily about an hour ago when I saw a 6x ERPPC Stalker overheat himself to death on Tourmaline. He kept missing, so I guess he kept pressing override shutdown in frustration.


EDIT: quick update, just fought the same 6x ERPPC pilot. He overheated long enough for me to core straight through him. In my Founders Hunchie. By myself.

Edited by Ramrod, 20 April 2013 - 06:32 PM.

[Erasus Magnus]

One Medic Army, on 20 April 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

I have been killed by one once.
I have killed far more than 1 of them.

No I do not fear it, I understand its many many weaknesses.

until you face that one dude that CAN shoot you 150kph zig zagging and jump turning jenner TWICE in the center torso, killing you and he just continues to do the same thing with the rest of the team, while evryone just sits before their screen in awe.
happend three times. and everytime ist was the same person. I´m talking to you there anudiz!
this guy is a beast. mad props to him.
and this was before ballistic state rewind.

Edited by Erasus Magnus, 20 April 2013 - 02:51 PM.

[Tennex]

its not a joke. it will land 2 shots on your CT and you will die in the heaviest of mechs.. it may shut down but. when your dead nobody can take advantage of that penalty.\\


this happens in 4 seconds.

Edited by Tennex, 20 April 2013 - 02:53 PM.

[jeffsw6]

So how do you re-balance the game so a 4-man of three 6xPPC Stalkers and an ECM brawler for cover is not unbeatable?

Maps. Alpine is ******* terrible. That map is horribly 1-sided and there is virtually no chance that the south team can beat the north team if the north team drops with a team like this. Why? Because the north team can effectively snipe both entrances to its base and the approaches from both the northern and central hills. On Conquest, the north team can easily reach the approaches to three resource bases with sniper fire.

If you are the south team on Alpine you might as well pat yourself on the back before you ever push "W." If you pull out a win without light-rushing the enemy base from that start point, you haven't used superior skill and tactics to defeat your enemies, you've just got lucky enough to be facing particularly bad PUGs.

Forest Colony is sniper-fest now, too. Might as well go through the cave or the woods every single drop because if you try to run up the water, you will die to snipers. If you don't, it's not because you were sneaky and used cover effectively, it's because the enemy snipers were occupied by killing half your team as they approached "theta" or pop-tarted out from the hills near their base. Good job; now you get to fight against superior numbers.

River City? This is perhaps the least sniper-friendly map, but the "sigma" team has a significant terrain advantage. Its more elevated base allows firing right into the enemy start point and covers most approaches. You're not going to get a pack of 3 PPC Stalkers there unless you rush them with superior numbers (good luck getting a PUG to do that) or you have focus-fire snipers on your own team (you won't unless you are in a similar 4-man.)

Tourmaline? Come on. While there is a good amount of cover on this map, there are no truly small spaces where you can maneuver in and out of cover to get most of the way across the map, such as the hills and buildings scattered about River City and Frozen City. A moving fire team of PPC Stalkers under ECM cover can choose to camp its base or simply march into the opposing base. The heat is not a big deal when your Stalkers can cut down several enemy mechs in a few seconds. Unless you rush and focus-fire them, or rush their base after they've moved out, they will win.

Caustic? At least this map has reasonable cover for counter-snipering; but again, good luck getting in close against these opponents. A bunch of mechs with medium lasers or AC/20s aren't going to get in range.

That leaves Frozen City. This map is decidedly un-friendly to the 4-man sniper team, who are unable to cover the shoreline, cave, and the burned out ship all at the same time. Yet we see in PUG matches that half or more of PUG teams generally die to sniper fire before the battle really begins.


The PPC Stalker 4-man is virtually unbeatable from most positions unless it is facing an opposing 4-man who are prepared to fight cheese with cheese, or run 4 light or medium mechs under ECM cover to focus-fire the opposing group, taking significant losses in the process. Even if it is 4-man vs 4-man, one starting point often has a huge advantage because of poor map balance. The only saving grace is at least you've got an equal chance to drop on the North side of Alpine as you do on the South side, etc.

TL;DR: The maps suck and do not provide an opportunity for PUG victory against sniper teams.

[Roadbeer]

jeffsw6, on 20 April 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

TL;DR: The maps suck and do not provide an opportunity for PUG victory against sniper teams.

Answer is in your question. If you refuse to use the tools handed to you. you just end up using your forehead as a hammer.

[Bishop Steiner]

jeffsw6, on 20 April 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

So how do you re-balance the game so a 4-man of three 6xPPC Stalkers and an ECM brawler for cover is not unbeatable?

Maps. Alpine is ******* terrible. That map is horribly 1-sided and there is virtually no chance that the south team can beat the north team if the north team drops with a team like this. Why? Because the north team can effectively snipe both entrances to its base and the approaches from both the northern and central hills. On Conquest, the north team can easily reach the approaches to three resource bases with sniper fire.

If you are the south team on Alpine you might as well pat yourself on the back before you ever push "W." If you pull out a win without light-rushing the enemy base from that start point, you haven't used superior skill and tactics to defeat your enemies, you've just got lucky enough to be facing particularly bad PUGs.

Forest Colony is sniper-fest now, too. Might as well go through the cave or the woods every single drop because if you try to run up the water, you will die to snipers. If you don't, it's not because you were sneaky and used cover effectively, it's because the enemy snipers were occupied by killing half your team as they approached "theta" or pop-tarted out from the hills near their base. Good job; now you get to fight against superior numbers.

River City? This is perhaps the least sniper-friendly map, but the "sigma" team has a significant terrain advantage. Its more elevated base allows firing right into the enemy start point and covers most approaches. You're not going to get a pack of 3 PPC Stalkers there unless you rush them with superior numbers (good luck getting a PUG to do that) or you have focus-fire snipers on your own team (you won't unless you are in a similar 4-man.)

Tourmaline? Come on. While there is a good amount of cover on this map, there are no truly small spaces where you can maneuver in and out of cover to get most of the way across the map, such as the hills and buildings scattered about River City and Frozen City. A moving fire team of PPC Stalkers under ECM cover can choose to camp its base or simply march into the opposing base. The heat is not a big deal when your Stalkers can cut down several enemy mechs in a few seconds. Unless you rush and focus-fire them, or rush their base after they've moved out, they will win.

Caustic? At least this map has reasonable cover for counter-snipering; but again, good luck getting in close against these opponents. A bunch of mechs with medium lasers or AC/20s aren't going to get in range.

That leaves Frozen City. This map is decidedly un-friendly to the 4-man sniper team, who are unable to cover the shoreline, cave, and the burned out ship all at the same time. Yet we see in PUG matches that half or more of PUG teams generally die to sniper fire before the battle really begins.


The PPC Stalker 4-man is virtually unbeatable from most positions unless it is facing an opposing 4-man who are prepared to fight cheese with cheese, or run 4 light or medium mechs under ECM cover to focus-fire the opposing group, taking significant losses in the process. Even if it is 4-man vs 4-man, one starting point often has a huge advantage because of poor map balance. The only saving grace is at least you've got an equal chance to drop on the North side of Alpine as you do on the South side, etc.

TL;DR: The maps suck and do not provide an opportunity for PUG victory against sniper teams.

I keep hearing this, yet I have a much higher win percentage when I am on the South Team. Strange.

[jeffsw6]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 April 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

I keep hearing this, yet I have a much higher win percentage when I am on the South Team. Strange.

There are more choices for PUGs to make when they drop on the North side than the South. When a random team has choices they don't all make the same one, so they are separated and therefore die more easily. In the cheese 4-man, though, it does not matter; because those 3 Stalkers will kill every opponent. The worst thing about playing in that group on my D-DC is I rarely get a kill ... the Stalkers don't let anyone get close enough. If I do kill anyone it's a light mech who could do more damage to me by standing between me and a stalker and hoping he friendly-fires me, than the opponent could ever hope to do with his own weapons.

[Kaboodle]

jeffsw6, on 20 April 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

There are more choices for PUGs to make when they drop on the North side than the South. When a random team has choices they don't all make the same one, so they are separated and therefore die more easily. In the cheese 4-man, though, it does not matter; because those 3 Stalkers will kill every opponent. The worst thing about playing in that group on my D-DC is I rarely get a kill ... the Stalkers don't let anyone get close enough. If I do kill anyone it's a light mech who could do more damage to me by standing between me and a stalker and hoping he friendly-fires me, than the opponent could ever hope to do with his own weapons.

So I think the real problem is teamwork op, as usual. Your 3 PPC stalkers, would be just as effective with your ECM atlas providing cover for an LRM boat group (before the LRM nerf anyway, and still moderately effective now), or even dual gauss cataphracts/Jaegars. Now you're complaining the maps are too sniper friendly...this is HILARIOUS because, back when we only had 2 maps, (Frozen and Forest) Sniping was laughed at because they were brawler friendly (The phrase Mechbrawl Online was thrown around). Add in River City, which offers a pretty good mix, and 3 more open maps...and suddenly it's unbalanced. Obviously what we need is another good close range brawler map, preferably one that limits jumpjets with low ceilings? Lets get a cave system based map!

(Edit to point out my sarcasm based reply kind of turned into a real preferable idea. There's an uneven amount of open/brawl maps, even it back out, and it should help the problem tremendously.)

Edited by Kaboodle, 20 April 2013 - 03:30 PM.

[Taemien]

Victor Morson, on 19 April 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

Serious units still do laugh at it.

I mean literally. We laugh at them on coms. The word "noob" might even get thrown around.

Not just units, I've been laughing at these things since they came out as well. Course I laughed at the Gausspult, AC20 Cat, and Splatpult builds the first time I saw them in CB and never felt threatened by them since.

Boating is just a path of least resistance for newbies to be somewhat competitive. But in the end, they will always fall short compared to a skilled player and a mixed loadout.

[jeffsw6]

Kaboodle, on 20 April 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

So I think the real problem is teamwork op, as usual. Your 3 PPC stalkers, would be just as effective with your ECM atlas providing cover for an LRM boat group (before the LRM nerf anyway, and still moderately effective now), or even dual gauss cataphracts/Jaegars.

I agree that "Teamwork is OP," and we need integrated, in-game VOIP to make randoms more viable; or 4-mans needs to only drop against opposing 4-mans. Presumably the reason they don't do the "only 4-man queue" is because there are literally not enough PUGs to avoid "Failed to find a game" appearing constantly.

I disagree with you about the effectiveness of a 3-LRM-Boat team. We all know that LRMs are easier to avoid than gauss and PPC fire, and they don't deal a ton of damage to a single component in a single instant. At least you can move between covered positions to reach an LRM boat (or several) and engage him without fear that the 2 seconds you are exposed between hills or buildings is likely to send you to the spectator screen.

TL;DR: Your LRM argument is exaggerated and you know it.

[Wintersdark]

Taemien, on 20 April 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

Not just units, I've been laughing at these things since they came out as well. Course I laughed at the Gausspult, AC20 Cat, and Splatpult builds the first time I saw them in CB and never felt threatened by them since.

Boating is just a path of least resistance for newbies to be somewhat competitive. But in the end, they will always fall short compared to a skilled player and a mixed loadout.

Up till the missile nerf, I was right with this. Now, though... While it's still best to combine low-heat/high mass ballistics with high-heat/low mass energy weapons, they all function effectively identically. Missiles are so bad now it's often better to just avoid them entirely, leave those hardpoints empty and get more ammo/heatsinks for the other weaponry.

[El Bandito]

Kaboodle, on 19 April 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

I sure do. Vdek's first videos, and my first few weeks playing it before the heat change, everyone laughed like crazy at the idea, "Fire 2 shots and overheat, huehuehue". Even after the heat change it took people like 2 weeks to catch on that it was legitimately good, if you could aim. Good times, back when we got laughed at for playing a joke build, instead of cursed for playing a "lame cheap game breaking" one. Funny how the build didn't change, the players did.

Coolshot changed the 6 PPC game--made it a whole lot deadlier. Now you won't overheat even after two back to back alphas.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 April 2013 - 05:21 PM.

[Warskull]

MadPanda, on 20 April 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

The 6ppc stalker fits the max engine with heatsinks in it. You do not fear it? You are a fool.

Only if you go XL, which means taking 6 PPCs over 4 costs you 4 double heatsinks. It also means the second you lose a side torso you are dead. Stalker side torsos tend to take a lot of hits. The downsides to 6 PPCs aren't worth the upsides.