121 replies to this topic

[Warchanter]

FrostCollar, on 24 April 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

IIRC PGI said that the missile fix made LRMs deal .7 damage to the component they hit and capped splash at something like .3 damage. That's consistent with the damage per missile of around 1 that people keep reporting.

yep, makes sense...forgot about the 'splash' issue...

Edited by Warchanter, 24 April 2013 - 10:31 AM.

[Void Angel]

trrprrprr, on 24 April 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

Im talking about pure lrm boat with 4+ lrms in mech. For last days i kinda start to adapt and do better... ok theres games where you are screwd if first minutes(get jumped by few lights with ecm's)

And im aware, that my english is very poor and looks like noone gets my point, what i want to tell.

...

BUT for the first time when i was playing yeterday, i was attacking hunchback, he was at like 500-600 meter range(ignoring me.. maby didnt see) But i had to use like 6-7 alphas and anyways in the end other mech killed. He was running in pretty small circles and ALL my lrms was targeting his feet, so like 60% of lrms where a food for the terrain, they had a pretty damn wierd angle when they close in to that hunchback. Its common for light mechs as they run faster then lrms fly, but hunch was running max at 70km/h (did target him with TAG and aimed head/shoulder location)

Your English is far superior to my Latvian, so don't feel bad. However, it's not that we don't understand you - it's that we disagree.

Your experience with that Hunchback is typical of the effectiveness of LRMs right now. I don't mean how many missed - I'm more thinking of how many shots it took you to kill him. I used the Assault v. the World tournament to extensively test my LRMs against optimal targets - big, slow assault 'mechs. My results were dismal - people were more likely to duck into cover from my heavy beam weapons than my LRMs. I seriously felt like I was throwing wet kittens; they're cute, and they scratch people up a bit, but they're not effective weapon systems right now.

(PS. A max engine Hunchback runs at 927 kph.)

trrprrprr, on 24 April 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

lrm20s sux, they eat more heat, weight alot more compared to lrm15s.

Actually, that's not true; LRM15s do have the advantage in rate of fire and missiles per ton, but if you add in Artemis, the differences in missiles per ton are slight (the LRM20 will throw 1.818 missiles per ton, and the LRM15 will throw 1.875.) However, in any case the advantage in heat goes to the LRM20, not the LRM15. If you look at heat per missile, the LRM20 will generate exactly 0.30 heat per missile, while the LRM15 generates 0.33 (repeating.) So the choice is generally between heat efficiency and rate of fire.

Warchanter, on 24 April 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

180 shots/ton @ my accuracy of approx 41% = 73.8 hits/ton @ .935 dmg/hit = 69 dmg ton.

...my good friend Cañón Automático Diez (AC10) with whom I have danced to the tune of 9933 dmg for 1009 hits which for some reason works out to 9.844/hit...

It works out to less than 10/hit because of damage decay outside of the effective range. Ballistic weapons do full damage out to their effective range, and then decay from full to zero between that and their max range (which is 3x effective range.) Lasers do the same thing, but their max range is only twice their effective range.

Edited by Void Angel, 24 April 2013 - 01:23 PM.

[Vodrin Thales]

MrVop, on 24 April 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

Sorry for being confusing. You mentioned that my data was not a good sample because of my sub par accuracy. But the only numbers we looked at were hits to dmg dealt. So my accuracy didn't matter, Sure half the salvo could have hit the building while the other half hit the mech, but that should definitley count toward the data as that's part of the weapon mechanic.
And yes per launcher data is more conclusive and important then per missile. I was just simply showing that to justify the **** poor return on per ton of ammo when using a large launcher to supress (as everyone seems to think that is the weapons intention).

Something is really off there because my twin LRM15 Highlander, used entirely since the missile nerf, has almost 7,000 damage on 4500 hits. So why exactly are my missiles doing more damage than yours? I think that the hit mechanic must not be tracking each missile or these stats make no sense whatsoever.

I'd also like to not that in testing out this mech I have recorded the third highest average damage per match of any mech I run, and it has my best kill/death. And that includes two nights running 8v8 matches.

Right now if you are using your LRM's as indirect fire weapons you are going to get subpar damage. You need to have most of the volleys fired with LoS and preferably TAG on the target. Indirect volleys will do very subpar damage, but damage from fire with LoS is actually pretty reasonable just nowhere near as good as pre-nerf.

[Straften]

LHKE2012, on 20 April 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

Tourmaline Desert 4/20/2013. I took down two Atlases and a Stalker, with my LRM 20s.

[Void Angel]

Vodrin Thales, on 24 April 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

Something is really off there because my twin LRM15 Highlander, used entirely since the missile nerf, has almost 7,000 damage on 4500 hits. So why exactly are my missiles doing more damage than yours? I think that the hit mechanic must not be tracking each missile or these stats make no sense whatsoever.

I'd also like to not that in testing out this mech I have recorded the third highest average damage per match of any mech I run, and it has my best kill/death. And that includes two nights running 8v8 matches.

Right now if you are using your LRM's as indirect fire weapons you are going to get subpar damage. You need to have most of the volleys fired with LoS and preferably TAG on the target. Indirect volleys will do very subpar damage, but damage from fire with LoS is actually pretty reasonable just nowhere near as good as pre-nerf.

Surely you're not using just two LRM15s? I've been using a hybrid-armed Atlas since before the Artemis buff, as well as the nerf. My feel is that my LRMs (which I use in direct line of sight and with Artemis, but not TAG) hit like wet kittens.

What else are you using in your build?

Edited by Void Angel, 24 April 2013 - 03:59 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I see you reading this Bryan.

LRM's are bad.

Help my Highlander.

[trrprrprr]

MrVop, on 24 April 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

And you know this how?
According to your math that is .9 damage a missile, as apposed to the stated .7 the missiles suposed to do right now. Are they doing more dmg then intended? Your argument is not making sence to me.

Youre trully the least smart guy here. Same whay a blind 5x ppc user can calculate his damage and say that ppcs are total crap as he did only 50damage but shot 5x ppc alphas for 100 times, so he shot 500 ppcs did 50 damage, so ppc shot does 1damage..... thats your way of calculating lrms

And you cant somehow use missed missiles in calculating total PER MISSILE damage. Missiles still do alot of damage, and yet i fail to see anyone ANY type of mechs who wouldnt hide as soon as they see missile warning.

Best way to calculate damage is get a TEST account with clean statistics and use lrms from few hundred meters on some atlas, do that for 100 times, if you have 4 lrms then 25times, that way you wont miss any lrm and that way you will be able to calculate total damage PER MISSILE!

[Void Angel]

I think you're a bit behind the conversation, trrp. Someone else already explained to him where his numbers are off.

[Panimu]

Void Angel, on 25 April 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

I think you're a bit behind the conversation, trrp. Someone else already explained to him where his numbers are off.

It's just fun correcting someone that cocky who is that wrong. :o)

Back to the OP a bit I'll contribute an anecdotal piece from a recent LRM optimising post in my guid (from me):

Quote

I just got done playing a match on my laptop (which gets between 9 and 20 FPS) whereby the game very quickly went badly on Alpine. I found myself running backwards down a hill. I got about 400M from the bottom when an Atlas D-DC dropped at the base and started shooting me up. I quickly Tag'd him, locked on and started launching missiles. Now he started with yellow armour over most of his body but nothing in Orange or above. I also zoomed in and started firing Medium Lasers into his CT. 3 salvos of missiles later he was dead. This came immediatly after doing the exact same thing to a Jager mech who chased me down that same hill in the same condition. It's no hero story, by the time the Atlas was dead I was already being shot by 3 other mechs

I feel LRM boats are still potent in the hands of people who know what they are doing.

[Void Angel]

Well, I know what I'm doing, but I don't have a chassis that can boat right now. As a matter of actual effectiveness, well... here's the promised full post on that subject. Cryin' in the Rain

[Panimu]

Yeah saw your new post. No tag, advance target decay or advanced sensor range mentiond. Made me want to troll it

[Vrekgar]

Panimu, on 25 April 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

I feel LRM boats are still potent in the hands of people who know what they are doing.

An arrow can still kill a man, you dont see people using them anymore in warfare because we have much better weapons.

Ive found that LRM's only really "Work" right now against complete idiots. This further illustrates a problem with them, that the enemies skill determines how effective they are more than your own.

[Panimu]

Vrekgar, on 25 April 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

An arrow can still kill a man, you dont see people using them anymore in warfare because we have much better weapons.

Ive found that LRM's only really "Work" right now against complete idiots. This further illustrates a problem with them, that the enemies skill determines how effective they are more than your own.

Very cute analogy, very. I wouldn't say it tells the full story.

I know when I play Magic the Gathering I'd tell new players that 50% of the game takes place away from the enemy, when you're constructing your deck (of cards). It's similar with LRMs. So many people make extremely poor LRM boats ignoring many vital concepts of LRM boat construction. There was an "ultimate LRM boat" thread (no idea where it would be now) where so many concepts I consider basic to construction were being ignored and make ineffecient mechs.

[Vodrin Thales]

Void Angel, on 24 April 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

Surely you're not using just two LRM15s? I've been using a hybrid-armed Atlas since before the Artemis buff, as well as the nerf. My feel is that my LRMs (which I use in direct line of sight and with Artemis, but not TAG) hit like wet kittens.

What else are you using in your build?

A gauss rifle and two medium lasers. I try to engage at about 300 to 400m ideally. The LRM's seem to do plenty of damage as long as I maintain LoS and TAG the target just prior to missiles hitting. That Highlander has the best average damage and K/D of any mech in my arsenal.

[Panimu]

Vodrin Thales, on 25 April 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

A gauss rifle and two medium lasers. I try to engage at about 300 to 400m ideally. The LRM's seem to do plenty of damage as long as I maintain LoS and TAG the target just prior to missiles hitting. That Highlander has the best average damage and K/D of any mech in my arsenal.

You can only be talking about the 732 then. I reckon I'll make that my 3rd Highlander! It does sound like twin LRM15s is wrong as I assume the Torso has 20 tubes and the arm 10 tubes right? LRM20 and 10 might be better. like this I'll try various things out in the field though.

Edited by Panimu, 25 April 2013 - 07:01 AM.

[Dr Monocle]

I understand the community for calling for a nerf about a Catapult doing a 90 damage alpha but in all honesty they were never really that hard to kill even in a light mech. Your medium lasers could snipe it from 570m well outside the Catapults kill zone. Take off the ears was the key or legging it as their legs are normally the storage for ammo and less armored to save weight. Even easier now with the new maps being barren large open areas making the FlakCat almost useless if it is out in the open. As for LRM boats they are easy if you stay behind cover and get within 180m or less, and only have a max range of 1000m. The damage I can understand being nerfed a bit, but PGI nerfed way too much. 50% really PGI? Come on now. I could understand bringing it down to say 1 damage for LRM and 2 for SRM, but 50% is way too much. That and the fact that you increased the tonnage penalty for Artemis to 6 tons and 6 slots.

Let's put this in perspective an SRM 6 max damage if you can actually group the missiles is 9 damage most missiles miss even with a immobile target and Artemis unless under 80m. With a range of 270m max and weight of 3 tons not including 1 ton for ammo you are then at 4 tons for a possible 9 damage max, ****** range as it is, and the same heat as a medium laser and a 4 second recycle time. This is also not to mention that even with a SRM 6 and 1 ton of ammo you only have 16.6 shots. So, going on from this a medium laser will do more damage concentrated, same heat, infinite ammo, a 3 second recycle time, and 400% less weight (1 ton compared to 4 tons). PGI effectively made the SRM 6 no more effective than a medium/small laser without Artemis. If all your missiles hit you still will only do the same damage as a large laser spread out, but at almost the same weight, 25% of the range, and limited ammo. Not to forget that there is even a delay before they are fired!

As for LRM's. Now say you have an LRM 20 without Artemis you can do a max of 14 damage spread out and without Artemis most will miss. With the restrictions we all know, and love (180m-1000m range) this and take in to account missile speed. If for example you are on the new arctic map, or dessert map you are very easily sniped by Gauss, AC/2, 5, 10, Ultra AC 5, ER Large laser, ER PPC, and PPC (This being the case even before the nerf I am not complaining about this).

So, at a weight of 10 tons plus ammo 1 ton you have only 9 shots before you are bingo on ammo. Add to the fact that if you have cover nearby for a skilled pilot no worries just hide for a second and take pot shots in between salvos doing the shimmy back and forth. That and if you have ECM, or near one it is virtually impossible to get a lock without someone on your team countering it (or TAG). Then to add insult to injury the fact that LRM's are not very accurate to begin with, and a LRM 20 has a recycle time of 4.75 seconds! With an LRM 15 is only 4.25 seconds but you still are only doing a max possible damage of 10.5 if all your missile hit and that is with them spread out over the enemy. So, with this in mind let's take a test drive. A LRM 20 with 1 ton of ammo and Artemis equals to 17 tons for just one and 27 tons for two... you can equate that to lasers if you like or auto-cannons with tonnage, damage, and slots.

PGI please fix the SRM and LRM problem by just enhancing there damage a bit. I am not asking to go to pre-nerf, and I am not asking to change the mechanics. However I am asking that you make the LRM per missile 1 damage and SRM per missile 2 damage. It is still a considerable cut down of the damage, but it will not make mechs such as the Catapult-A1 useless. Keep the Artemis at 6 tons and slots, keep the weight since it helps balance the game play out, but just increase the damage output slightly. I understand the need of the other mechanics to prevent the missiles going all over powered. We the community just would like the missiles to actually still be worth getting mechs that are missile heavy for, and for them to be more useful on the battlefield. Thank you for your time. To the community and PGI.

-David

P.S. Sorry for the long post, but I felt it was needed.

Edited by Dr Monocle, 25 April 2013 - 08:50 AM.

[Vodrin Thales]

Panimu, on 25 April 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

You can only be talking about the 732 then. I reckon I'll make that my 3rd Highlander! It does sound like twin LRM15s is wrong as I assume the Torso has 20 tubes and the arm 10 tubes right? LRM20 and 10 might be better. like this I'll try various things out in the field though.

You have to free up an additional crit slot and ton of space to run 20 and 10 as opposed to twin 15's. The arm LRM has a longer fire time, but it is not terribly problematic, and I like running a couple of jump jets for quick escapes over buildings and hills when ECM lights show up.

@Dr Monocle: There are alot of inaccuracies in your post. Current LRM damage is 1.0 per missile, and SRM damage is 2.0 per missile when splash damage is included. Also I hit with 65% of my SRM6 missiles, so most do not miss, and an SRM6 weights 3 tons and 4 with artemis so I don't know where you are getting 7 tons.

I do think missile damage may need to be tweaked slightly at this point and LRM flight speed could be increased, but a large increase in damage will result in players like me being ridiculously over effective in SRM and LRM heavy mechs. As it is my LRM carrying Highlander is actually fun to play, something I could not say of any of my LRM carrying mechs prior to the missile nerf.

Edited by Vodrin Thales, 25 April 2013 - 08:20 AM.

[Dr Monocle]

@Vodrin Thales Thanks for that I edited my post I believe I mistook the LRM 15 weight at 7 tons for the SRM 6 my mistake thank you. As for the Damage I am still correct the LRM's are at 0.7 damage per missile and SRM's are still at 1.5 damage per missile as of 4/25/13. That is still a 50% nerf that PGI did. I only would like them to increase damage for LRM's by 42% and SRM by 33% still well under the 1.5 damage for LRM and 2.5 damage for SRM was. By increasing them to what I suggest and what others on different posts suggest it will still be a 33% decrease for LRM's and a 20% for SRM's quite a considerable amount of reduction still.

[Void Angel]

Panimu, on 25 April 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

Yeah saw your new post. No tag, advance target decay or advanced sensor range mentiond. Made me want to troll it

Actually, I did mention TAG (it was in the spoiler section,) and of course I used target decay and sensor range modules - I don't even think about them any more, since I consider them to be standard equipment if you're able to get them. However, modules are the MWO equivalent of "endgame," and thus should not be required for basic functionality.

[El Bandito]

LHKE2012, on 20 April 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

Tourmaline Desert 4/20/2013. I took down two Atlases and a Stalker, with my LRM 20s. We were out classed by weight, 5 assaults to 2, and they had the advantage with lights, 3 to 2. But because I could keep a track on people, the team took down 2 assualts and 3 lights, while I took down the remainder. You will note that I had the high score for the match and for overall damage, so no “stolen” kills. Missiles are not broken, but they are not as effective as they were. So adjust tactics, and work closer with your team.

http://mwomercs.com/...d-to-gaussppcs/

Read this. If I had the usual Gauss+PPC build I coulda won that match with less than half damage. LRMs are obsolete. I only use it cause I like being hip and stupid.

Edited by El Bandito, 25 April 2013 - 09:33 AM.