92 replies to this topic

[Devil Fox]

LRM's whilst not in the best spot, still serve a good purpose. I hated the poptart builds for the Highlanders, so I thought up how can I really screw up a poptart's day in one? Cue the 732 with a Guass, 3ML, and 2 ALRM15's... the combination is that anything that wants to close on you can be cored within 200-300m of distance, and most once they see you at the 250m range throwing LRM's, and slamming Guass and ML into their CT either back out trying for cover or stop dead.

I have one video where I sit behind a ridge, everytime a Highlander poptarted, I would be firing LRM's over the hill within 300m and slowly just draining his CT. 4 poptarts kept behind a hill by pinpoint guass+ML then being hammered once dropped by LRM's. They do need an improvment, an increase in speed or damage... because ignore me and learn the power!

[Johnny Reb]

I just went extreme lrm, but last poster gets it!

[Mr 144]

OMG Johnny Reb...now I understand...You think LRMs are good because you write off absymal damage in an assault on Pugging..yikes...stick with pugging, at least you got an excuse. If those three screenshots were my best damages of the weekend, I most certainly would not tell anyone about it. Posting those as 'best' pretty much killed any credibility you have...sad really, you think 159 damage in a Pug as long as you stole 4 kills is good for an assault...heck, for ANY mech....wow, just wow...

Mr 144

[Dr Killinger]

LRMs are slightly underpowered damage-wise, but the big thing is between ECM and the 10 second dodge time, they're way too easy to avoid.

What I really wish is that smaller launchers (LRM5, SRM2) would be viable somehow...

[Johnny Reb]

Mr 144, on 21 April 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

OMG Johnny Reb...now I understand...You think LRMs are good because you write off absymal damage in an assault on Pugging..yikes...stick with pugging, at least you got an excuse. If those three screenshots were my best damages of the weekend, I most certainly would not tell anyone about it. Posting those as 'best' pretty much killed any credibility you have...sad really, you think 159 damage in a Pug as long as you stole 4 kills is good for an assault...heck, for ANY mech....wow, just wow...

Mr 144

When did I say good? Also, that was not the best it was to highlight the steal killing ability of lrms. Also, I stated I don't use these in 8 man only pug. LRMS are not good, when they were "good" this game was not fun like:


or


I put abysmal damage on my targets were almost dead and my volley which gave me damage score killed them then the rest followed. To be clear, LRMS currently are not good but still effective, that is all.

So try and berate me more.

Edited by Johnny Reb, 21 April 2013 - 11:48 PM.

[TOGSolid]

Johnny Reb, on 21 April 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:

Oh no I took an assault class in an assault class weekend and got 4 kills in a PUG. My 9 flamer hunchie in a pug can't get a screen I would share. Also, my time in these mechs when lights rush me is bad also, however, its a pug. When I get rushed in a 45 kph mech no one cares/around to help me.

Also, I boat it cause I don't want to poptart like the rest. I'm a unique snowflake b-itch.

You "stole" 4 kills. You did no real damage. Please keep it straight.

You fail to realize that you showing up in a really crappy mech might be hilarious to you but it only ****** the rest of the team off. Just because you think it's fun doesn't mean **** to the other seven people you're screwing over.

[Johnny Reb]

Well in all the shots I posted we won so how was I screwing over my teammates? Also, who are you tell me I cant run whatever the hell I want in a pug?

Edited by Johnny Reb, 21 April 2013 - 11:51 PM.

[Mr 144]

again...falling back on the 'Pug' excuse....when I pug (and I do often) I always strive to bring decent builds for the variant/chassis I'm running. You apparently do not. Heck...Pugging is what generates the best screenshots...not grouping. This is what you're failing to understand. When grouping with friends, your damage is LOWER. Pugging for good players is not a handicap, it's an opportunity for E-peen SSs...

Mr 144

[OpCentar]

shabowie, on 21 April 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

The mechanic that balanced boats in TT was the cluster hits table, where AMS and Artemis had the same effect of moving your roll up or down for the purpose of determining how many hit, regardless of launcher size or number of launchers. More of the same launcher would just mean another chance to make that same number of hits.

In MWO the AMS mechanic makes LRM5s worthless and Artemis makes all missiles hit CT. AMS can only handle so many missiles in MWO though, rather than reduce every launcher equally it gets swamped by big throw weight LRM boats and then the target gets clobbered.

What kinds of mechanics would serve to make smaller launcher sizes and distributed LRM ability useful? I just can't see it.

As I see it AMS isn't the main issue. Sure it makes single LRM5s useless but it's not that effective vs missile swarms which is fine. Making it destroy a fixed percentage of incoming missiles would instantly turn it into mandatory equipment, and that means it's unbalanced. Another reason why you can't do that is that it also has the ability to shoot down any incoming enemy missile, how are you going to determine the percentage of missiles it takes down?


The root cause is LRM boats with huge alphas and no downsides which can't be easily compensated for. I have been advocating nerfing boats a long time now as they are the logical choice every time you can build one. It's simpler to use a bunch of identical weapons and that means more effective firepower going downrange. For LRMs, minimum range is easily compensated for by having two LRM boats standing 200m from each other, providing covering fire. Heat is not a problem as you can cycle weapon groups.

Basically there are two ways of nerfing boats - aiming and DPS. Aim nerfs don't apply for LRMs, you really can't control which armor location LRMs hit without making them pseudo streaks, so the only way is to nerf DPS. Either by heat or just plain increased launcher cycle time. That way one or two LRM20s are still useful on any mech but running a 70 LRM Stalker makes it a pure support mech with a feared alpha and low damage over time.

Of course fine tuning is always needed but the basic idea should be boats = huge alpha/low DPS.

Otherwise the minute LRMs get buffed again they will either still be useless (not enough damage for their weight) or back to being overpowered when boated.

Edited by OpCentar, 22 April 2013 - 12:06 AM.

[Johnny Reb]

Excuse? I don't run these builds with my 8 man its a pug only mech. Why not play around with builds in a pug environment. Yes, I fail to understand why I should use my optimized 8 man mechs in a pug environment. Pugs are for trying new builds out. This weekend was a pug only tourney and I went lrm jumper other than standard poptart. I do totally fail to see your point 144.

Edited by Johnny Reb, 22 April 2013 - 12:09 AM.

[Teralitha]

I dont know... AMS seems to reduce the damage from LRMs enough to make them fair.

What I see is some people just dont like getting hit by LRM's regardless if they even do any damage. It jars them. Like someone with ADD. It annoys them. the LRM's could be doing zero damage, and they would still hate and complain about LRM's.


You cant listen to these people. LRMs are a weapon intended to do notable damage. The LRM 20 is akin to a heavy weapon and is expected to do 'heavy damage' LRM15 should be just as dangerous as a guass rifle. When an LRM 10 does the damage of a machine gun something is wrong... It ought to be hitting as hard as an AC10 and doing as much damage. At the present time, an SRM2 is much more deadly than an LRM 5. That is a problem. They ought to be equally dangerous.

The whole problem with LRM's is 2 things...

1. Perception
2. The implementation was wrong. They oversimplified it, and thusly, are unable balance it. PGI hasnt figured this out yet.

Edited by Teralitha, 22 April 2013 - 12:28 AM.

[GoatHILL]

I have no problem with the damage they do. I do have a problem with ecm and scan range the L in LRM stands for Long most people are using them at medium range at best. Minimum range is 180m down from 250m between ecm and the sniperfest the game has turned into scouting for you team's LRMs has been made next to impossible.

[SirLANsalot]

In one hand LRM's are weak as a primary system for mechs that are made for that entire purpose (aka the catapult). In the other there borderline ok if you mass spam them (4 or more) on a mech.

Mechs like the CPLT-C4/HGN-733/AWS-8R can use 4 or more LRM15's or 20's and have tonnage for the ammo needed to deal lots of damage. These mechs still need to spam lots of LRM's to even get a smidgen of satisfaction that they are doing anything to the enemy. The 733 has a very good 50 missile alpha (first volly out of the mech, followed by another 25 if configured with 3 20's and a 15), thats a lot of missiles even at low damage. I have seen all 50/25 land on a stationary target and turn its armor colors all across its body (from light orange to light yellow). He mostly shrugged it off and kept on going but it did get him moving again before the next volly landed. Other games they just sit there and laugh at them unless there cored.
This happens to all of those mechs that can pack 4 or more of those high end LRM's. Sadly this is not the case for other mechs like the Atlas's and the CPLT-C1 or others that have 2 hardpoints. The C1 is a laughing stock even with twin 20's and 4ML, if you see one LRMing and he dose high damage that game, its mostly all from those 4 ML, and not from the LRM's (personal experience).

The issue is two fold. LRM's for one fly far too slowly and track VERY poorly, any mech...I mean ANY MECH can outrun or mitigate the LRM damage by just moving at anything over 50 kph. So poor damage WITH poor tracking is making the damage even worse.


People whine about LRM's shouldn't be a main gun.....yet they forget that there are mechs that are MADE to be LRM BOATS. You have the Catapults, Stalkers, and certain variants of the awesome, and highlanders that are made for that purpose too. Reason people changed over to the OMG LL/PPC SPAM on there stalkers was because LRM's got hit FAR too hard, which leaves only one other weapon system for the very slow stalker. Even the K2 of the catapult is seeing a resurrection, even tho the 4 PPC build for it is as old as the game itself. Those pilots would normally be, or be configured with, LRM's or in the other LRM mechs.

Case in point, LRM's need a buff, but only a smallish one. Currently there .7 damage a missile, bump them to 1.0 or 1.2 and they would be golden.

[DerSpecht]

While LRMs are being overhauled in the nex weeks i realized that almost everyone in pugs stripped their ams for another ppc or AC. That and the fact that blind firind at a DDC still works makes up for the temporal nerf pretty well.

People are used to ride alphaboats now and when the next patch comes and the LRMs will be more or less balanced.. well i'll enjoy the tears...

[Pelador]

LRM's be fine, just need their flight speed to be a little bit faster to connect better with some faster targets.

[Willie Sauerland]

If you are expecting to get loads of damage from 1000 meters away,
you are going to be sorely disappointed as you will miss more than you
will hit.

If you are 200 meters away from your target, you are going to get a lot
more hits and will not have any problems getting the kill.

I know because I was running 2 LRM5s on my ECM Commando with a TAG
last night during prime time with poptarting Assaults vs. the world.
Yes, LRMs need to be buffed with speed boosts and a bit more damage would
be nice, however, if they were left where they are now, I can adapt and still
kill big stompy robots...

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 22 April 2013 - 02:15 AM.

[Lefty Lucy]

Willie Sauerland, on 22 April 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

If you are expecting to get loads of damage from 1000 meters away,
you are going to be sorely disappointed as you will miss more than you
will hit.

If you are 200 meters away from your target, you are going to get a lot
more hits and will not have any problems getting the kill.

I know because I was running 2 LRM5s on my ECM Commando with a TAG
last night during prime time with poptarting Assaults vs. the world.
Yes, LRMs need to be buffed with speed boosts and a bit more damage would
be nice, however, if they were left where they are now, I can adapt and still
kill big stompy robots...

Yes, LRMs as they are now are a somewhat acceptable mid-range direct fire weapon. However I would suggest that this niche is not something that really should be filled by LRMs, and the 180-meter minimum range represents a *huge* weakness that other mid-range direct fire weapons do not have.

[Willie Sauerland]

Lefty Lucy, on 22 April 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

Yes, LRMs as they are now are a somewhat acceptable mid-range direct fire weapon. However I would suggest that this niche is not something that really should be filled by LRMs, and the 180-meter minimum range represents a *huge* weakness that other mid-range direct fire weapons do not have.

Sure.
We don't have MRMs yet.
However, I have never been good with the
"Fire from 1000 meters behind the front line"
style of LRM play.
I like to be up there with the action and
support my team where it will help them.
Sitting so far back is simply a gamble and
is currently not really helping your team at all.

My opinion only.
YMMV

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 22 April 2013 - 12:22 PM.

[Ransack]

Not even going to read the post. The title was enough to make me laugh hysterically.

[Wintersdark]

Aklor, on 21 April 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

LRMs hurt because for some reason they all seem to damage the CT and only the CT.

This was covered.

LRM's mostly damage the CT, because they reduced the splash range. With the larger splash range, S/LRM's were doing disproportionately large damage to certain mechs with more complex geometry - Commando tests showing single missiles doing 12 damage, for example.

They tried just removing splash damage entirely, but this turned LRM's into center-coring monstrousities.

So, they picked a medium point, lower impact damage with smaller splash range to help push the damage-per-missile into the ballpark of desired damage. They can't use a larger splash range, because of the geometry problem. They can't use just more damage, because that would worsen the center-coring issues. They can't lower the damage, without making them even more useless. Missile pathing and strike zone is a complex issue, that will take some time to work out and yes, they are working on it now.