87 replies to this topic

[Caustic Canid]

OK. I'll start by saying and admitting that I too am guilty of alpha striking my weapons at enemy mechs. It's just too easy NOT to do. As this is the case, there are many cheese builds that can strip a mech of its center torso armor in two shots, because all of the weapons converge on the same spot.

I know it would probably **** off quite a few people, but my suggestion would be to get rid of group fire. Put a small (like 1/4 second) pause between individual weapons fire. So that people HAVE to land each shot. Maybe even add (gasp) weapon kick or something so people using more powerful weapons have to compensate for each shot. It is my opinion that this would more closely emulate the "random hit locations" of the TT. or at least give people a fighting chance.

If you're good enough to land six individually fired PPC's in my CT then fine. You deserve the kill.

I know that alpha strikes are part of the b/t universe, but at this point, mechs are being BUILT around them.

Anyway. My 2 cents.

[Owlfeathers]

No.

Don't think I really need to elaborate on this.

P.S. Even if this was implemented, you can just bind all weapons to whatever key you want, which has the same effect as an alpha strike.

[JSparrowist]

No. Bad idea.

[Hekalite]

No. Aiming is OP. We just have to live with that. If other balance changes need to be considered, fine, I'm cool with that.

[Caustic Canid]

Neverfar, on 21 April 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

The problem is in Battletech, the 6 PPC theoretical Mech wouldn't be able to put all 6 shots into the same location. Each shot would hit somewhere differently as a base mechanic.

If that was here, a lot of the problem would be solved. Wider shot groups would be a start. If it really takes so much "skill" to do this like its defenders claim, then wouldn't a wider convergence shot group help them hit light Mechs to begin with (if less precisely)?

Thats what I'm Saying. since they would have to fire each PPC by itself, they would have to track the CT of the enemy mech the whole time, instead of just unloading all six into the CT in one shot.

Owlfeathers, on 21 April 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

No.

Don't think I really need to elaborate on this.

P.S. Even if this was implemented, you can just bind all weapons to whatever key you want, which has the same effect as an alpha strike.

I guess I figured they would make the weapons fire automatically with a pause between each, or each press of that groups key would fire one weapon from it (like chain fire)

[Willie Sauerland]

Caustic Canid, on 21 April 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

OK. I'll start by saying and admitting that I too am guilty of alpha striking my weapons at enemy mechs. It's just too easy NOT to do. As this is the case, there are many cheese builds that can strip a mech of its center torso armor in two shots, because all of the weapons converge on the same spot.

I know it would probably **** off quite a few people, but my suggestion would be to get rid of group fire. Put a small (like 1/4 second) pause between individual weapons fire. So that people HAVE to land each shot. Maybe even add (gasp) weapon kick or something so people using more powerful weapons have to compensate for each shot. It is my opinion that this would more closely emulate the "random hit locations" of the TT. or at least give people a fighting chance.

If you're good enough to land six individually fired PPC's in my CT then fine. You deserve the kill.

I know that alpha strikes are part of the b/t universe, but at this point, mechs are being BUILT around them.

Anyway. My 2 cents.

The problem is not the alpha strike per se,
but the ability to overheat and not take any
penalties.

Fix the heat and you fix the problem.

[Isle5]

Removing alpha strike or group fire is not the direction to go. Each weapon should have a convergence range, and only at that exact range does the convergence hit the same spot.

Example

PPC convergence range of 750m for 4 of them. If your closer then 750m the shots are spread depending on how far you are from the convergence point. If you were 100m away it might hit 3 locations and miss once but if you were at 650m away it might hit 2 locations.

This would primarily be for torso mounted weapons because they are hard mounted in a specific bracket. Arm mounted weapons could have varied convergence due to the mobility of the arms.

[Chavette]

If you removed everything, there would be no problems.

[Aklor]

remove alpha strike? workaround is grouping all your weaps to make an alpha strike. Remove alpha strike, you may as well remove weapon grouping all together. That would be pretty lame.

[Vassago Rain]

If I have a grand total of 4 guns, and they're two of two different kinds, is it really an alpha?

[Aklor]

Chavette, on 21 April 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

If you removed everything, there would be no problems.

YES! we could play tag, or hide n go seek. Much fun would be had.

[Willie Sauerland]

Vassago Rain, on 21 April 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

If I have a grand total of 4 guns, and they're two of two different kinds, is it really an alpha?

Only when fired in repeating sequential pairs.

[DarkDevilDancer]

Alpha strikes are not the problem, people being decent shots is as pointed out before.

They can crank the heat up again and all that will happen is people will find a new way to deliver max damage.

The way to not get alphad is to stay mobile and use cover to the best effect.

[Tickdoff Tank]

In TT a 6 PPC mech (would not have to be a Stalker) would be almost completely unplayable. In addition to the random hit locations, 60 heat would fry your mech. Even with 20 DHS (10 engine+10 more) you would generate 20 heat with each shot. ANd I don't think you could fit 10 extra sinks anyway.

[Bishop Steiner]

Overheating should have side effect. In Battletech, you have the heat screw up your targeting, your mech become sluggish, ammo cooks off, etc. Repeat overheating should have penalties, such as HUD damage as you cook your units computers and such.

As it is, if a mech overheats, he shuts down a few seconds. Unsupported, he might get killed. With a team protecting him, usually he walks away with nary a penalty.

Implement that, and Hard Point sizes, and 99% of the boating issue ends, right then and there.

[Willie Sauerland]

Tickdoff Tank, on 21 April 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

In TT a 6 PPC mech (would not have to be a Stalker) would be almost completely unplayable. In addition to the random hit locations, 60 heat would fry your mech. Even with 20 DHS (10 engine+10 more) you would generate 20 heat with each shot. ANd I don't think you could fit 10 extra sinks anyway.

True.
The problem is, in the TT the Awesome is a feared mech.
It could alpha those 3 PPCs numerous times before it overheated.
The problem with MW:O is the broken heat mechanic as well as
the need to have 6 PPCs to do the same damage ratio the 3 PPC
Awesome would have had in TT.

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 21 April 2013 - 04:26 PM.

[Woska]

The problem isn't the alpha strike option. The problem is weapon convergence. It allows you to focus fire very tightly. Personally, I'd like to see a cone of fire. So your aim point is a circle that shows the hit probability at that range. Make it big enough to make missing an issue at range, but not so huge that you can't hit the mech up close.

And yes, skill would still be important. If your aim is off, more shots will miss. But this would remove the sniping. Long range fire would be relegated to softening up a target instead of surgically removing one.

[Major Derps]

There just needs to be a larger heat penalty on fire more than 4 weapons simultaneously IMO.

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

Overheating should have side effect. In Battletech, you have the heat screw up your targeting, your mech become sluggish, ammo cooks off, etc. Repeat overheating should have penalties, such as HUD damage as you cook your units computers and such.

As it is, if a mech overheats, he shuts down a few seconds. Unsupported, he might get killed. With a team protecting him, usually he walks away with nary a penalty.

Implement that, and Hard Point sizes, and 99% of the boating issue ends, right then and there.

Also, what he said.

[Kobold]

This all goes back to how they decided to implement heat and weapon ROF.


Dev 1: "Firing weapons once per 10 seconds is dumb! Let's increase ROF!"
Dev 2: "But then people overheat super fast! Let's increase max heat!"


This change allowed for larger single-shot bursts without shutting down. In tabletop you could barely make a 4 PPC inner sphere assault mech that didn't shut down when it fired all three weapons. (A stalker with 20 doubles, 4 PPCs, and a 3/5 speed). If you tried to make the 6 PPC stalker, as noted above, you would shut down the very first time you fired them all, automatically.

Increasing heat dissipation speed while reducing the max heat would go a long way towards discouraging massively over-gunned mechs, and it fits the source material better.

[Caustic Canid]

I understand what people are saying about the heat, but the way I see it, damage to sensors/heat penalties and whatnot arent going to stop people from doing this. The game only has 8 mechs to kill, and you have no penalty for the condition of your mech at the end. If you can 1-2 shot 3 mechs, you're still at the top of your team.

My issue with an ingrained spread is that people SHOULD be rewarded for accuracy. The problem is that they are being rewarded for being accurate ONCE, rather than several times, consistently. If people had to hit each individual shot, it would reward consistency.