62 replies to this topic

[Signal27]

As a dirty Inner Sphere freebirth, I can already tell you what the comm chatter with the Clans is going to be like:

Did I kill someone by shooting them in the back? "Dishonorable!"

Did I run away from a fight because I was outnumbered? "Dishonorable!"

Did I return to the fight with friends and now we outnumber the clan mechs? "Dishonorable!"

Do I have an ECM equipped mech? "Dishonorable!"

Did I call for an air or artillery strike? "Dishonorable!"

Am I behind a hill lobbing LRMs at a clan mech so they can't return fire at me? "Dishonorable!"

Did I win the match by capturing the objective instead of fighting? "Dishonorable!"

Did I do anything else besides charge straight at the clan mech to engage in a brawl? "You better believe that's DISHONORABLE!!!"

Edited by Signal27, 23 March 2013 - 11:07 AM.

[Syllogy]

Zellbrigen is ritualistic form of honor dueling practiced by the Warrior Caste of the Clans.^[1][2]

History

The practice of engaging opponents in single combat, the genesis of what would later become zellbrigen, was first started by Clan Coyote during the Operation Klondike.^[3] Despite the losses incurred by this fighting method, Coyote's Khan Dana Kufahl would continue to encourage her Clan and others to practice this "honorable" form of warfare. Eventually the practice would be taken up by all of the Clans, to a greater or lesser degree, in part as a way to minimize losses in both lives and resources.^[1][2] This is especially true when opposing commanders agreed to a duel to determine a battle's outcome.
During the Clan Invasion the rules of zellbrigen lapsed, primarily because the Inner Sphere had no concept of Clan cultural norms and, in some cases, exploited them for "underhanded" victories. By the end of the campaign zellbrigen had all but died out in several Clans, while most still reserve it for inter-Clan confrontations or against worthy Inner Sphere warriors.^[1][2]

Rules

The proscriptions of zellbrigen consist of the following rules:

• Each warrior will issue a challenge to a different enemy. If one side outnumbers the other, then the extra warriors on that side will stand aside until one of their comrades falls in battle. A warrior can challenge more than one unit at a time.^[4]
  
• A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected.^[4]
  
• A warrior has the right to refuse a challenge from an unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available.^[4]
  
• No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side.^[4]
  
• Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited.^[4]
  
• Systems that requires multiple units to operate, like C3 and TAG, are forbidden.^[4]
  
• Moving out of weapon range is prohibited.^[4]
  
• Failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited.^[4]

A warrior is also expected to not retreat from inferior foes, or to engage his opponent in melee combat, though these are not part of the formal rules of zellbrigen.^[4] Also, though it plays a central role in Clans' combat challenges, the ritual of batchall remains a separate tradition.

Edited by Syllogy, 23 March 2013 - 11:05 AM.

[Signal27]

Syllogy, on 23 March 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Zellbrigen

Thanks for the education.

[captaincabbage]

You're questioning our ways Signal27?? DISHONOURABLE!!!!

[FrostCollar]

Syllogy, on 23 March 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited.^[4]

I didn't realize this was a part of it too.
Overheating in combat is honorable!

[Kreisel]

Considering the average pilot in mwo is a lone wolf... a merc with no unit. Little better than pirates in the clans eyes. Don't know how often zell will really come into play. As i recall many clans thought mercs and pirates unworthy of it.

As for airstrikes, tag and narc... dishonorable equipment. I expect you simply wont be able to use them on clan mechs as a way of balancing them.

Facing ecm with no tag... ouch

[Skylarr]

Skylarr, on 04 June 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Why does it feel like allot of people who want to play a clanner are saying that "The Clans never used Zellbringing (or clan fighting system) against the IS barbarians".

I found this about the Clan Honor System on the web. I feel it is how the Clans would treat the IS:

Zellbrigen (Dueling)


Under the rules for ritual dueling, or zellbrigen, Clan players must declare a target for each of their dueling 'Mechs. A typical declaration might sound something like, "I am MechWarrior Seth of Clan Steel Viper. I pilot the sole Summoner in Alpha Star. I hereby invoke the ritual of zellbrigen and challenge the pilot of the Orion adorned with the unit designation eleven to a duel of warriors. In this solemn matter, let no one interfere!"

During a duel, no other Clan warrior may attack either of the dueling 'Mechs. If a third Inner Sphere unit interferes with a duel, the dueling Clan warrior may attack the interfering unit, provided that another Clan 'Mech has not already challenged the interloper to a duel. A duel ends when one combatant is destroyed, disabled or retreats from the battlefield.

At Honor Level 1, the Clan warrior upholds all the rules of dueling regardless of his opponent's actions.

At Honor Level 2, the Clan warrior follows the rules of dueling until the Inner Sphere side takes an action that violates the Clan honor code (a third party interfering, a unit involved in one duel firing on a 'Mech involved in another duel, and so on). If this happens, the duel immediately degenerates into a free-for-all.

At Honor Level 3, any infringement of Clan honor in the dueling rules renders the entire ritual of zellbrigen null and void, leaving the Clan 'Mechs free to attack any enemy unit without restraint for the remainder of the ehgagement.

At Honor Level 4, dueling rules do not apply.

Physical Attacks:

Unlike the formal ritual of dueling, the Clans' dislike of physical attacks in 'Mech combat is an informal, if widespread, custom. No explanation has yet been given for this distaste, though some experts suspect that Nicholas Kerensky chose to encourage a long-range fighting style among the Clans.

At Honor Level 1, a Clan warrior never makes physical attacks in 'Mech combat.

At Honor Level 2, a Clan warrior may make a physical attack only if an enemy unit makes one first. Any Clan unit may freely engage that 'Mech in physical combat.

At Honor Level 3, a single physical attack by an Inner Sphere 'Mech allows all Clan warriors to retaliate in kind against all enemy units for the remainder of the engagement.

At Honor Level 4, the taboo against physical attacks no longer applies.

Retreat:

Clan MechWarriors despise their Inner Sphere counterparts because they consider Inner Sphere armies dishonorable warriors fighting in inferior 'Mechs. Therefore, Clan warriors consider retreating from Inner Sphere opponents a disgrace almost beyond redemption. When allowed to choose whether or not to flee a losing battle, many Clan warriors prefer to fight to the death.

At Honor Level 1, a Clan warrior never retreats.

At Honor Level 2, Clan warriors may retreat from enemy 'Mechs that are using advanced technology, but never from 'Mechs, armor or infantry units using 3025 (Level 1) technology.

At Honor Level 3, Clan warriors may retreat from any vintage of enemy 'Mech, but will not retreat from armor or infantry units.

At Honor Level 4, Clan warriors may retreat at will.

Almost every Trueborn starts off at Level 1. Some may be Level 2. Freeborns will most likely be Level 2 and some Level 3. Dezgra or Solahma units would most like be in the 3 or 4 area. This is before the Battle of Tukayyid. Most invading Clans units slid down the scale with only the most elite units staying at Level 1.

How zellbrigen is interpreted depends not only on the individual, but their parent Clan as a whole. At one end of the spectrum, the rules are strictly followed, the only exception being when fighting bandits, pirates or the most hated of enemies. At the opposite end, zellbrigen is figuratively "thrown out the airlock" and used only against other Clan warriors, and even then only when there is an advantage over them. In between are varying levels of adherence; for example, zellbrigen is followed unless circumstances dictated otherwise, such as being outnumbered or thinking one could get away with breaking it.

Prior to the Clan Invasion, Clan Blood Spirit, Clan Coyote, Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Goliath Scorpion, Clan Jade Falcon, Clan Star Adder and Clan Steel Viper adhered strictly to the tenants of zellbrigen. Meanwhile Clan Cloud Cobra, Clan Hell's Horses, Clan Ice Hellion, Clan Nova Cat and Clan Snow Raven were more opportunistic in their interpretation. Only Clan Diamond Shark and Clan Wolf used a liberal interpretation of zellbrigen in their conflicts with the other Clans.

After their defeat at the Battle of Tukayyid, many of the Clans began to rethink their use of these honor rules, and a number of political, military and cultural changes took place. The Blood Spirits, Jade Falcons and Star Adders became more opportunistic, while the Ghost Bears became more liberal, in the use of zellbrigen. The schism within Clan Wolf resulted in its new Crusader-minded leadership to become slightly more conservative, while Clan Wolf-in-Exile maintain a flexible definition of zellbrigen.

Clan Fire Mandrill, by their fractious nature, defy any sort of labeling, with each Kindraa having their own individual understandings of zellbrigen.

This will not come into play during the random battles. I am guessing this will only come into play during pre-made battle between Guilds//Clans/Houses/Factions. Then it will be for bragging rights.

It should also be noted that most clans fought IS green and regular warriors with 3025 Tech. The more elite units with better Tech put up a good fight and may have won some battle, but, 12 (or 24) Mechs cannot hold a battlefield when their flanks are being over run.

[Moromillas]

You're forgetting intentionally aiming at the cockpit.

[CoffiNail]

Syllogy, on 23 March 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Zellbrigen is ritualistic form of honor dueling practiced by the Warrior Caste of the Clans.^[1][2]

History

The practice of engaging opponents in single combat, the genesis of what would later become zellbrigen, was first started by Clan Coyote during the Operation Klondike.^[3] Despite the losses incurred by this fighting method, Coyote's Khan Dana Kufahl would continue to encourage her Clan and others to practice this "honorable" form of warfare. Eventually the practice would be taken up by all of the Clans, to a greater or lesser degree, in part as a way to minimize losses in both lives and resources.^[1][2] This is especially true when opposing commanders agreed to a duel to determine a battle's outcome.
During the Clan Invasion the rules of zellbrigen lapsed, primarily because the Inner Sphere had no concept of Clan cultural norms and, in some cases, exploited them for "underhanded" victories. By the end of the campaign zellbrigen had all but died out in several Clans, while most still reserve it for inter-Clan confrontations or against worthy Inner Sphere warriors.^[1][2]

Rules

The proscriptions of zellbrigen consist of the following rules:

• Each warrior will issue a challenge to a different enemy. If one side outnumbers the other, then the extra warriors on that side will stand aside until one of their comrades falls in battle. A warrior can challenge more than one unit at a time.^[4]
  
• A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected.^[4]
  
• A warrior has the right to refuse a challenge from an unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available.^[4]
  
• No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side.^[4]
  
• Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited.^[4]
  
• Systems that requires multiple units to operate, like C3 and TAG, are forbidden.^[4]
  
• Moving out of weapon range is prohibited.^[4]
  
• Failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited.^[4]

A warrior is also expected to not retreat from inferior foes, or to engage his opponent in melee combat, though these are not part of the formal rules of zellbrigen.^[4] Also, though it plays a central role in Clans' combat challenges, the ritual of batchall remains a separate tradition.

Coffi's interpertation of the Rede of Honourable Combat

1 Each warrior will issue a challenge to a different enemy. If one side outnumbers the other, then the extra warriors on that side will stand aside until one of their


this is where your honour can come in to play. The Warriors with better careers and higher honour will be at the front lines, making the challenges first. Those with poor careers, less honour are behind in formation, and if there are no more opponents, well you have to wait to pick up the pieces if your trothkin cannot make the kill, which in turn ends up giving the 'lower' warrior less honour for a opponent that is already damaged and whose machine is not at their peak.

Example:

Clan A Star Alpha and Clan A Star Beta get challenged by brave warriors from Clan B who only have one star. Warriors from Clan A Star Alpha will most likely be closer to the warriors of Clan B and will get challenged first, or make the challenges. The Warriors from Clan A Star B must now wait for a Warrior from Clan B to be freed from an opponent to issue a challenge to the freed warrior.


A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected.[4]

The Warriors of the Clans are not stupid. Some Clans warriors are somewhat mindless, needing the direction of a supirior to issue them overall commands. But not stupid. If dezgra tactics are thought to be in play, a Warrior can call it out. For the initial battles against the forces of the Sphere I feel that it would be rather hard for the Warriors to do this, as most felt that the Clans ways were through-out. This is also why Commanders were surprised and shocked when IS Commanders did not know about the Batchall, and other such events. Almost 300 years of ritual warfare, and their culture, they had a hard time thinking otherwise.

As Operation Revival (The Invasion) took place, Warriors and Commanders came to realize that the IS would not conduct themselves by the Clans 'Rede of Combat' and as such, they realized that the IS would use underhanded tricks to win. This is not to say that many Clan Warriors still died believing the IS Warrior who just issued a challenge might not be trying to redeem his honour by agreeing to the 'proper' perceived ways of war.

A warrior has the right to refuse a challenge from an unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available.^[4]

This just makes sense. If a blind by honour Warrior who is in a Firemoth is issuing a challenge and you are in a DireWolf, it would make sense to not tarnish your own honour by accepting the challenge, which has the 'odds in your favour'.

Other side of the work credit chit and you have a Firemoth being challenged by a DireWolf. The point of a Warriors life is to bring honour to the Clan, his death is inconsequential to the honour of the Clan. But in combat, to die recklessly is to waste the Clans resources as well.

No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side.^[4]

There is no honour in taking out an opponent who you cannot even see. Also to have the enemy not be able to have the chance to know they are under attack is a dishonourable tactic, and not worthy of a warrior.

Quote

What about the Clans range over the IS Coffi?

Glad you ask, I see it as, it is not the Warriors fault he is using out dated equipment. If the warrior cannot use his terrain to make the initial engagement favourable to himself it is that warrior fault.

Quote

What about that Kodiak who ambushed the Mad Dog in GBL?

The Warrior was a second line Warrior who was also engaged in defensive operations. How can I gather this? The Kodiak is a BattleMech, and as much as it is a Ghost Bear Totem Mech, it is still a BattleMech. Front Line Warriors of the main, powerful Clans use Omni-Technology.

As well, the Kodiak revealed a heat signature for a good few seconds alerting the Mad Dog to a ememy Mech's presense.

Last, He was a Ghost Bear Warrior fighting in a Totem Mech and attacking like the Ghost Bear does. Lieing in wait until his prey comes within reach and then in a flury of motion takes down his prey.


Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited.^[4]

My thoughts to this. These are strictly how I previeve this rule, I have little basis aside from how I feel the Clans would operate outside a ten second round board game.

A round in table-top, where the rules were developed is ten seconds. To me this rules means that you are not to remove yourself from combat. You are to manuver around and you can take quick cover to provide yourself with the best available shot. It is like pausing behind a building in River city to perform a 180 turn behind cover so you can come out at a opposite angle, hopfully throwing the opponent off guard, or to provide you to still be able to hit the enemy.

Think about it, the start of round A and the end of round B which is the full movment, fire and such is 20 seconds. This provides a lot of time to manuver around terrain to take advantage of your cover and your skills. It does not give y ou time to go around large hills, or buildings.

Moving out of weapon range is prohibited.^[4

Zell is the challenge to see which warrior posses better skill and training. If you are purposely moving out of your maximum weapons range for an extended time you are acting cowardice.

Failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited.^[4]

Once again, this is due to a 10 second round frame. If you have a good shot, and you are not taking it something is wrong. You are hesitating, or possibly needing more practice in lining up your shots.


Systems that requires multiple units to operate, like C3 and TAG, are forbidden.^[4]

Zell is about 1 on 1 combat. Anything that requires more than 1 unit to operate now is voiding that 1 on 1 duel.

Zell overall has different interpretations per Clan and also per Warrior. The overall view is honour for the Clan, and this can cause some interesting scenarios. Two Clan Commanders, or two warriors in the same Clan have argued over the others interpretation.

I hope this helps some, and gives others possible alternative thoughts on the reasons of the Rede of Combat.

Zellbrigen is about the skill, training and prowess of the warriors involved in the Duel. Ultimately though, the rules boil down to a 1 on 1 duel and the rest can be tossed to the wind, you just gain less honour and glory provided you win, dishonour for violating Zell if you lose.

[Skylarr]

Moromillas, on 23 March 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

You're forgetting intentionally aiming at the cockpit.

I do not see why a Clan Warrior would target the cockpit. Except in an extreme circumstance.

[CoffiNail]

Skylarr, on 23 March 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

I do not see why a Clan Warrior would target the cockpit. Except in an extreme circumstance.

Agreed. You are wasting the resource of the Warrior. Now, at the same time there is no reason for a Clan Warrior not to take out the cockpit. It gives your Clan clean isorla that needs little in the need of resources to repair, vs more... extensive isorla damage.
Clan Warriors are trained not to feel anything for the loss of a life pass that of the loss of a trained Warrior (provided the warrior seemed up to skill)

The legs are much more preferred for a 'Clean' 'skilled' kill however'

Edited by CoffiNail, 23 March 2013 - 04:42 PM.

[zztophat]

Kreisel, on 23 March 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

Considering the average pilot in mwo is a lone wolf... a merc with no unit. Little better than pirates in the clans eyes. Don't know how often zell will really come into play. As i recall many clans thought mercs and pirates unworthy of it.

As for airstrikes, tag and narc... dishonorable equipment. I expect you simply wont be able to use them on clan mechs as a way of balancing them.

Facing ecm with no tag... ouch

Many of the players that are lone wolves are that because clans are currently not implemented.

[Skylarr]

Sarna extract some of its info from Total Warfare. Here is what Total Wafare says.

Quote

ZELLBRIGEN
Under the rules for ritual dueling, or zellbrigen, Clan players must declare a target for each of their dueling ’Mechs. A typical declaration might sound something like, “I am MechWarrior Seth of Clan Steel Viper. I pilot the sole Summoner in Alpha Star. I hereby invoke the ritual of zellbrigen and challenge the pilot of the Orionadorned with the unit designation eleven to a duel of warriors. In this solemn manner, let no one interfere!”


During a duel, no other Clan warrior may attack either of the dueling ’Mechs. If a third unit interferes with a duel, the dueling Clan warrior may attack the interfering unit, provided that another Clan ’Mech has not already challenged the interloper to a duel. A duel ends when one combatant is destroyed, disabled or retreats from the battlefield.

At Honor Level 1, the Clan warrior upholds all the rules of dueling regardless of his opponent’s actions.

At Honor Level 2, the Clan warrior follows the rules of dueling until the Inner Sphere side takes an action that violates the Clan honor codes (a third party interfering, a unit involved in one duel fi ring on a ’Mech involved in another duel, and so on). If this happens, the duel immediately degenerates into a free-forall. During the Weapon Attack Phase, if a player declares that his unit will fi re on a target already involved in a duel, any Clan player whose declaration of zellbrigen follows the Inner sphere player’s declaration of a “dishonorable attack” may attack that Inner Sphere ’Mech without regard for honor rules. Only the violator
may be attacked in this way.

At Honor Level 3, any infringement of Clan honor in the dueling rules renders the entire ritual of zellbrigen null and void, leaving the Clan ’Mechs free to attack any enemy unit without restraint for the remainder of the game. At Honor Level 4, dueling rules do not apply. Using zellbrigen in a game requires a certain degree of cooperation between players. A crafty Inner sphere player can exploit the rules of engagement to deny the Clan player any targets. Not only is this grossly unfair, but it is also inaccurate in terms of the BattleTech universe (plus, it’s not much fun for the Clan player).

Finally, the Clan player should not be expected to adhere to the rules of engagement when it would be foolish to do so, as in the following example:

You are playing the Clans in a scenario with Honor Level 1. You have one Daishi and your opponent has four ’Mechs: a Banshee, an Orion, an Atlas and a Spider. The Spider challenges the Daishi to a duel, which the Daishi accepts. The Spider then uses its superior movement rate to hide behind hills and heavy woods so that the Daishi never gets line of sight to it. Meanwhile, the other three members of the Spider’s lance
pound the Daishi to dust. The Daishi cannot retaliate because its player must adhere to Clan honor, which in this case means he can only attack the ’Mech that challenged him to a duel. He vainly attempts to chase the Spider, while “off -limits” enemies destroy his BattleMech.

Requiring the Daishi in this example to strictly obey the rules of engagement means that the Clan player must sit back and allow his unit to be destroyed. To give players some options in such situations, use the following guidelines to adjudicate the use of zellbrigen in game play.

1. Making the Challenge: One of the most important parts of a duel is the challenge. This takes place during the Weapon Attack Phase, when attacks are declared. When a Clan unit declares an attack on a unit that it has not attacked before, it iseff ectively announcing its intention to duel—the Clan player should verbally issue his challenge at this time. Dueling makes Initiative even more important, as Initiative also determines the order of attack declaration and challenges.

If the Inner Sphere side outnumbers the Clan side, it is considered bold (but acceptable) for a single Clan ’Mech to challenge more than one opponent at the same time. All of a single ’Mech’s opponents are considered part of the same duel and may fi re on the lone challenger. However, at least one target must be left for each ’Mech on the Clan side (this tradition does not apply to non-’Mech Clan units). In fact, Clan
MechWarriors greedy for battlefi eld glory may force their own armored vehicles, infantry units or even Elementals out of combat in this way.

Though a single Clan ’Mech may challenge more than one Inner sphere ’Mech, additional Inner Sphere ’Mechs cannot invite themselves into an onging duel even if the Clans outnumber their side. Such an action is a breach of zellbrigen.

2. Refusing a Challenge: A Clan warrior need not accept a challenge issued by an Inner Sphere warrior, especially if he suspects the challenge is a ploy to abuse zellbrigen and achieve victory through deceit. As a general rule, a Clan warrior can refuse a challenge from a ’Mech of a diff erent weight class than his own, as long as he issues a challenge against another Inner Sphere ’Mech instead.

Also, though Inner Sphere warriors are not expected to accept or refuse challenges, the Inner Sphere side must abide by Clan honor when Honor Levels 2 or 3 are in effect or else risk touching off a melee. In these cases, the Inner Sphere player can refuse challenges from Clan ’Mechs outside the challenged ’Mech’s weight class as long as an alternate challenge is made.

Finally, any challenge must be accepted if no alternate
targets are in play.

3. Declaring a Duel Void: Certain situations may render a duel void, even if strict adherence to the rules of engagement (Honor Level 1) is in force. In these cases the judgment of the players must prevail; however, the gamemaster can use the following simple penalty system to judge these situations. The penalty system is intended to enforce the idea that dueling ’Mechs must actively fi ght one another for the duel to be valid.
Because Clan warriors call people without honor dezgra, the penalties are referred to as dezgra points.

Each of the infractions listed below earns the violator a dezgra point, unless the violator’s opponent declines the penalty (which he might do if he decides that the action was tactically appropriate). If a dueling ’Mech accumulates 3 dezgra points, it is clear that the duel is dishonorable, and so it becomes void in the End Phase of the turn in which the third point was earned. No dueling ’Mech can earn more than 1 dezgra point per End Phase.

If a dueling unit intentionally moves out of its opponent’s line of sight, the unit earns 1 dezgra point.

If a dueling unit has line of sight to its opponent but intentionally fails to fi re at the enemy, the unit earns 1 dezgra point. This guideline assumes that at least one shot is possible, meaning that the enemy unit is within the fi ring arc and range of the weapon being fired.

If a dueling unit moves out of firing range of all its weapons, the unit earns 1 dezgra point.

If the unit earns no dezgra points in a turn, it may remove 1 dezgra point in the End Phase of that turn. A unit can not, however, reduce its dezgra points to zero in this way.

Once a unit has accumulated 3 dezgra points, any Clan unit may freely fi re on it for the remainder of the scenario without violating the dueling rules.

Area-Effect Weapons: Area Aff ect Weapons (as well as any system that requires multiple units to operate, such as TAG, C3, semi-guided LRMs and so on) by their nature violate Zellbrigen. No Clan warrior will use any area-eff ect weapon system or special munitions while fi ghting at Honor Levels 1, 2 or 3. Only at Honor Level 4, when dueling rules do not apply, will a Clan warrior use such systems.

A Clan warrior’s response to an Inner Sphere unit declaring an attack using such a system against a Clan unit depends on the honor level in use. At Honor Level 1, the Clan warrior upholds all the rules of dueling, regardless of the type of weapon used. At Honor Level 2, the duel degenerates into a free-for-all, with the violators—the unit that fi red the area effect weapon, designated with TAG or used a C3 system— open to attack by any Clan unit. At Honor Level 3, the use of area-effect systems renders the entire ritual of zellbrigen null and void.

Physical Attacks
Unlike dueling, the Clans’ dislike of physical attacks in ’Mech combat is an informal, if widespread, custom. No explanation is yet known for this distaste, though some experts suspect that Nicholas Kerensky chose to encourage a long-range fighting style among the Clans.

At Honor Level 1, a Clan warrior never makes physical attacks in ’Mech combat. At Honor Level 2, a Clan warrior may make a physical attack only if an enemy unit makes one first. During the Physical Attack Phase, if the Inner Sphere player declares a physical attack, any Clan unit whose declaration follows that violation of Clan honor may freely engage that ’Mech in physical combat.

At Honor Level 3, a single physical attack by an Inner Sphere ’Mech allows all Clan warriors to retaliate in kind against all enemy units for the remainder of the game. At Honor Level 4, the taboo against physical attacks no longer applies.

Retreat
Clan MechWarriors despise their Inner Sphere counterparts because they consider Inner Sphere armies dishonorable warriors fi ghting in inferior ’Mechs. Therefore, Clan warriors consider retreating from Inner Sphere opponents a disgrace almost beyond redemption. When allowed to choose whether
or not to flee a losing battle, many Clan warriors prefer to fight to the death.

At Honor Level 1, a Clan warrior never retreats. At Honor Level 2, Clan warriors may retreat from enemy ’Mechs that are using advanced technology, but never from ’Mechs, vehicles or infantry units using 3025 (introductory) technology. At Honor Level 3, Clan warriors may retreat from any vintage of enemy ’Mech, but will not retreat from vehicles or infantry units. At Honor Level 4, Clan warriors may retreat at will.
Excerpt taken from Total Warfare page 274 & 275

Edited by Skylarr, 23 March 2013 - 05:49 PM.

[CoffiNail]

Skylarr, on 23 March 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

This refers to a TAG in one unit and the launcher in another unit.

Since in MWO the range of the TAG was extanded many Missile boats carry their own TAG. I feel that as long as the TAG is on the Mech firing the Missiles it is OK.

If with the Clans we can get a option in the MechLab to have our Tags as direct ally vs direct self sort of option. I agree. I have used tag for my own purpose often in MWO and MWLL.

[Utilyan]

This is a repost sorta..... I often wonder if there still mechwarrior 2 vets out there, I learned clans, BT, mechwarrior from mechwarrior 2. To me mechwarrior2 is the holy bt-bible.

This is my personal opinionated short sighted bias.............

Mechwarrior 2 clans > TT-clans

TT-clans are klingons wanabe's.

Mechwarrior 2 clans......put BT on the map. We wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for Mechwarrior 2.

Mechwarrior 2 just outshined everything about BT, I think to the point some bt ego's got bruised.

Since that massive butt kicking from Mechwarrior 2 alot of IS biased folks started dictating what it means for clan folks to be a clanner. According to them clanners are klingons.

You can watch gameplay vids of mechwarrior 2 on youtube........they are not klingons.

In mechwarrior 2 everyone was a freebirth, scrub, toad.....you earn your way out.....and everyone knew the sibko was a huge victory orgy thats why they all want to be in it.

In TT folks are grown out of test tubes, sibko was some genetic bank......and your a fk klingon.

LOL


In mechwarrior 2 you had a mission the priority is the mission...with objectives.....you blow the enemy up and leave....

In BT you have a batchall/ zellwiggy, qua' pla where you challenge the enemy to duel in simba's circle of life....and your a fk klingon.



Im curious whats the take MWO going to go with. I'd prefer they wrote something up themselves.

Maybe I need to be directed to clan novels or something to understand the klingon mechs.

I don't mind playing the part of mech klingon........

I'm curious what clan is going to show up. I hope PGI introduces thier own take.

[TibsVT]

Quite a few good write-ups and references for people. The TAG subject is a bit iffy though with how it operates in MWO.

Still though the key problem is everyone interprets it differently. Whats fine for one may not be for another. I think no matter how many times or different ways its put that will remain the case.

The rule about moving out of line of sight is a big one. While I may be okay with manouvering around a small hill so long as I don't stop and hide or redirect myself, I perceive that as okay. Others will not.

Perhaps we need a personal opinion page/thread somewhere.

[Skylarr]

KelesK, on 24 March 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

Quite a few good write-ups and references for people. The TAG subject is a bit iffy though with how it operates in MWO.

Still though the key problem is everyone interprets it differently. Whats fine for one may not be for another. I think no matter how many times or different ways its put that will remain the case.

The rule about moving out of line of sight is a big one. While I may be okay with manouvering around a small hill so long as I don't stop and hide or redirect myself, I perceive that as okay. Others will not.

Perhaps we need a personal opinion page/thread somewhere.

You are correct. it will come down to interpretation by the Clan Uinit you are in. Some may say "NO TAGAT ALL" while another may say "TAG IS OK AS LONG AS IT IS FOR YOUR USE ONLY"

I am sure many Clan Units will come together and form a committee to judge many aspect of the game as more info is put out. In the end this unofficial committe will decide as a group what will be allowable.

[Pariah Devalis]

My personal take on Zell is this:

1) Single combat, one on one.
2) If you have a good shot, and it will not result in over heating, shoot.
3) Use of small terrain is fine, so long as it is used tactically and not for escape. Misdirection, timed blocking of shots, etc. Clanners are not Red Coats! There is nothing to be gained by simply standing there blasting at each other.
4) All electronics are fair game insolong as it is not being utilized by anyone else. I include NARC on this, as well as TAG, as there are a couple variants out there that are notable for using them for their own purposes such as the LRM Adder that uses the NARC for its own benefit.

Other then that, expecting anything more in a Mechwarrior game is verging on insanity.

[Davoke]

Why are we arguing about honor anyways, the Clans might have stood a chance against the crappy stock builds of classic Battletech, but against the numbers, advanced designs and large number of well organized and well trained mercenaries out there, the Clans are screwed this time around.

[TibsVT]

Davoke, on 24 March 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

Why are we arguing about honor anyways, the Clans might have stood a chance against the crappy stock builds of classic Battletech, but against the numbers, advanced designs and large number of well organized and well trained mercenaries out there, the Clans are screwed this time around.

That may or may not be true. But we are allowed honour between ourselves. Besides, none of this applies for dishonourable mercs.