58 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

Davers, on 29 April 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

Well then the question is whether or not the Devs will completely overhaul the heat system. I would say no, but they did drop R&R like a hot rock when they saw it wasn't working.

But assuming they don't do that, is there anyway of achieving that brawler/sniper balance?

Dropping something entirely can be easier than revamping a fundamental aspect of the system, so I share your concern that they are not gonna change that aspect.

I am not sure what could be done to fix things. Nerfing PPCs will likely come with the rpoblem t hat they'll turn useless, not simply "reasonably powered". They only work because of the value of alpha strike potentials.
Another option might be too increase the rate of fire of long range weapons, but lower their damage and heat per shot.
Say:
- Gauss RIfle: 11 damage and 0.5 heat per shot every 3 seconds
- PPC: 7 damage per shot and 5 heat per shot every 2 seconds
- ER PPC: 7 damage and 8 heat per shot every 2 seconds
This will keep the DPS and HPS of the weapnos (almost, I rounded a bit) idenitical to now, but lower the max alphas.
(2 PPCs + Gauss: Down from 35 to 25; 4 PPCs down from 40 to 28; 6 PPCs down from 60 to 42)

Maybe they could increase armour again, so that you need more alphas then you need now to kill something. How about increasing internal structure by 50% That would also "buff" the importance of the crit system, as you spend more time chewing through internal structure, meaning more chance for critical hits), meaning that you need a better sustainability.

[silentD11]

A few, personal observations.

1. Whenever a mech is a new mech you will see more of those in game than any other mech out there. Given that the Highlander is the new mech, and that poptarting is what it does, we are going to see a ton of highlanders poptarting until more new mechs are out. The highlander is the real offender causing PPC warrior online. The stalker lacks the poptarting, the mediums and lights lack the health to do it, and the 3d wasn't all that crazy when it was alone.

2. Whenever PGI has one of their tournaments you see a lot of horrible behavior going down in game. The amount of poptarting increased for their event and then went back down after they weren't pushing events. Along the same lines the amount of PPCs and large lasers went up to game the rules. In other words, PGIs events encourage this sort of thing and are directly responsible for it.

3. It's still better than missile incoming the game.

IMHO, PGI needs to get a new assault and new heavy out of the doors fast. Once this is done they shouldn't run tournaments that encourage this sort of behavior. If they don't do this they are just screwing themselves.

[Anjian]

Damage reduced? This is still Battletech, or at least, it tries to be. Missiles were adjusted because they were in way excess of its canon values.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LRM-20
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/SRM-6
http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gauss_Rifle
http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon

LRMs = Each missile does one damage. 20 missiles for LRM 20.
SRMs = Each missile does 2 damage. SRM6 would do 12 damage.
PPC = 10 damage
Gauss Rifle = 15 damage
ER PPC = 10 damage
Clan ER PPC = 15 damage

The game states it is a simulator, and so it must be consistent to lore. It already has made changes from lore already, I doubt it would make more, or the original premise becomes increasingly diluted, and the vision and character of the game is lost. I am sure when you play a World War 2 tank game, you expect the 88mm of a Tiger tank to really hurt. It may seem overpowered, but OP is allowed when it is consistent to lore.

So the damage is going to stay for the Gauss and PPCs. They are the big guns of the Battletech universe, and that is where they need to be.

SRMs and LRMs though, need to be adjusted so at least, LRM20s should properly inflict 20 values of damage and SRM6s should inflict 12 values of damage.

And yes, Clan ERPPC is going to hurt even more with 15 damage. Missile fans might find it interesting that Clan LRMs don't really have a minimum range as well.

If nerf has to be imposed, they would have to do it with heat or firing rate.

[Rashkae]

Anjian, on 30 April 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

Damage reduced? This is still Battletech, or at least, it tries to be. Missiles were adjusted because they were in way excess of its canon values.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LRM-20
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/SRM-6
http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gauss_Rifle
http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon

LRMs = Each missile does one damage. 20 missiles for LRM 20.
SRMs = Each missile does 2 damage. SRM6 would do 12 damage.
PPC = 10 damage
Gauss Rifle = 15 damage
ER PPC = 10 damage
Clan ER PPC = 15 damage

The game states it is a simulator, and so it must be consistent to lore. It already has made changes from lore already, I doubt it would make more, or the original premise becomes increasingly diluted, and the vision and character of the game is lost. I am sure when you play a World War 2 tank game, you expect the 88mm of a Tiger tank to really hurt. It may seem overpowered, but OP is allowed when it is consistent to lore.

So the damage is going to stay for the Gauss and PPCs. They are the big guns of the Battletech universe, and that is where they need to be.

SRMs and LRMs though, need to be adjusted so at least, LRM20s should properly inflict 20 values of damage and SRM6s should inflict 12 values of damage.

And yes, Clan ERPPC is going to hurt even more with 15 damage. Missile fans might find it interesting that Clan LRMs don't really have a minimum range as well.

If nerf has to be imposed, they would have to do it with heat or firing rate.

By the same logic, LRMs should also blanket a large area, and not be a "right for your Center Torso" spiral of doom weapon.

[MustrumRidcully]

Anjian, on 30 April 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

Damage reduced? This is still Battletech, or at least, it tries to be. Missiles were adjusted because they were in way excess of its canon values.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LRM-20
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/SRM-6
http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gauss_Rifle
http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon

LRMs = Each missile does one damage. 20 missiles for LRM 20.
SRMs = Each missile does 2 damage. SRM6 would do 12 damage.
PPC = 10 damage
Gauss Rifle = 15 damage
ER PPC = 10 damage
Clan ER PPC = 15 damage

The game states it is a simulator, and so it must be consistent to lore. It already has made changes from lore already, I doubt it would make more, or the original premise becomes increasingly diluted, and the vision and character of the game is lost. I am sure when you play a World War 2 tank game, you expect the 88mm of a Tiger tank to really hurt. It may seem overpowered, but OP is allowed when it is consistent to lore.

So the damage is going to stay for the Gauss and PPCs. They are the big guns of the Battletech universe, and that is where they need to be.

SRMs and LRMs though, need to be adjusted so at least, LRM20s should properly inflict 20 values of damage and SRM6s should inflict 12 values of damage.

And yes, Clan ERPPC is going to hurt even more with 15 damage. Missile fans might find it interesting that Clan LRMs don't really have a minimum range as well.

If nerf has to be imposed, they would have to do it with heat or firing rate.

In Battletech, a PPC deals 10 damage and causes 10 heat over 10 seconds. A Medium Laser deals 5 damage and 3 heat over 10 seconds. It doesn't say how many shots these are, but there isn't a way to shoot weapons in Battletech so they deal more damage and heat than that. (Ultra and Rotary Cannons have mechanics for variable firing speed. But even then, an UAC/5 can only deal a max of 10 damage in 10 seconds, but in MW:O, it can deal a lot more...)

[Darwins Dog]

Don't you think this thread is a little... not productive? Will the PPC be balanced? No, PGI said that they will stop balancing the game entirely. </sarcasm> Everything will probably be balanced again and again. That even includes clan tech. Is it a PPC apocalypse of 2013. Sure, but it's not like other weapons haven't had the same said about them. LRMs, SRMs, AC20, Raven-3L, ECM, SSRM, Gauss, Catapult-K2s. Things get balanced, adjustments are made, the flavor of the month changes, and life moves on.

To those of you who aren't having fun with the game right now. I'm sorry to hear that. Perhaps it's time for a little break. Check the patch notes once in a while and you just might see some changes that you like. You can join us for the next version of _____warrior online/_____ apocalypse of 2013. Just kidding... sort of.

[Ngamok]

Heat is the issue TBH. A 6 PPC stalker needs to produce more heat than what each individual PPC produces, like X% more to keep it from doing 3 alpha strikes. Also, when you over heat over X amount, you need to start taking damage.

[MustrumRidcully]

Ngamok, on 01 May 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

Heat is the issue TBH. A 6 PPC stalker needs to produce more heat than what each individual PPC produces, like X% more to keep it from doing 3 alpha strikes. Also, when you over heat over X amount, you need to start taking damage.

No, he shouldn't. You can get a similar effect - him not being able to fire 6 PPCs - by simply lowering the heat capacity. Raise the heat dissipation in kind, so people might lose burst DPS, but gain sustainable DPS, and you got a neat system.

[Tombstoner]

But lowering heat capacity will force players to use more heat balanced builds or stop firing:not fun. This is MWO not TT. if I wanted to micro manage heat i would play a different game.(sarcasm). The game lacks heat penalties except for shut down for a reason. The dev' don't want to make a tactical mech simulator.... its supposed to be a FPS like counter strike... Face -->palm.
maxing out heat = changing clips. anything that lowers the pew pew speed of the game is bad. (more sarcasm, with a tear in my eye for this game)

[MustrumRidcully]

Tombstoner, on 02 May 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

But lowering heat capacity will force players to use more heat balanced builds or stop firing:not fun. This is MWO not TT. if I wanted to micro manage heat i would play a different game.(sarcasm). The game lacks heat penalties except for shut down for a reason. The dev' don't want to make a tactical mech simulator.... its supposed to be a FPS like counter strike... Face -->palm.
maxing out heat = changing clips. anything that lowers the pew pew speed of the game is bad. (more sarcasm, with a tear in my eye for this game)

What did you do that you feel that you must punish yourself so much that you posted all this! It must have been physically painful!

[Tombstoner]

i never got around to deleting MWO as i intended and had a bit of nostalgia recently after seeing an SDF 1 model .
i lodged in and played some, next day i had to check the forums looking for some hope.

[BluefireMW]

What simply happens with the ppc is, that it shoots to fast in is to cold. You are at these low heat levels are able to shoot 120 damage on 6 ppc in 4 seconds and there is no cover or position, you can reach in such a short period to keep you mech undamaged.
Especially you have an Atlas or something such slow like this mech.
A fast one dies on a hit instantly even on 60 damage it is to much.

The deference to as much damage in medium lasers would be that this mech has to get close, so you are able to see him before it hits, but a stalker can shoot this at about 800 m or little bit closer if you take not a ER PPC to make almost no heat anymore.

There is a Solaris VII Ruleset given with faster loading times, but even there it didn't happen you get 120 damage in 4 seconds with no consequences as a shutdown.

Jumping mechs make that not more dangerous, just different, because even there would some more heat and recycle time do it's job to prevent 45 damage in one location in 5 seconds, then there is mostly a gauß rifle as damage part included.
I would prefer that heat prevents from shooting 6 ppc, because it wouldn't happen that kind of weapon would do 10 heat instead of 7. 10x6 = 60 (the double heat you can catch in standard heat table) then 7x6 = 42 (if even that would lead to a shut down in standard CBT norms)

And yes i know this is not table top. But it could be an empty game if just one type of weapon is mostly used, because it's just the only weapon useful.

Edited by BluefireMW, 12 May 2013 - 07:47 PM.

[Void Angel]

Actually, I've been having fun with my AC/20/2 MLas/3 ASRM6 Atlas. You have to be careful, and it may take some communication (or occasionally weapons fire...) to get your team to snipe on the move and support you, but a good brawler can wreak serious havoc against ERPPC snipers who can't maintain their weapons fire because of heat. It's not a magic wand, but I've had a lot of VERY fun games, and not a lot of abject failure.

Welcome to the Brawler Backlash.

(Or course, now I'm skilling up my Cataphract, but that's another thread.)

[DukeDublin]

MustrumRidcully, on 29 April 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

It's not that difficult.

To deal 10 damage with a PPC, you need to invest 7 tons from a mech's available tonnage.
To deal 10 damage with medium lasers, you invest 2 tons from a mech's available tonnage.
If you invest 15 tons in 660m ranged weapons, you get 15 damage.
If you invest 14 tons in 270m ranged weapons, you can get 20 damge.

To invest 15 tons in PPCs, you invest 9 slots with super efficent heatsinks included.
To invest 14 tons in medium lasers, you invest 34 slots with sup... wait a second.

[Accursed Richards]

BluefireMW, on 12 May 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

What simply happens with the ppc is, that it shoots to fast in is to cold. You are at these low heat levels are able to shoot 120 damage on 6 ppc in 4 seconds and there is no cover or position, you can reach in such a short period to keep you mech undamaged.
Especially you have an Atlas or something such slow like this mech.
A fast one dies on a hit instantly even on 60 damage it is to much.

Got sniped twice today, in a Cicada, at full speed, the first time from 800+m away, the second out of nowhere on Forest Colony. Fun!

[ivr56]

PPC's are fine
The rest of the weapons need work to make PPC's not the end all

[Syllogy]

Changes are Coming.

[Void Angel]

Yessss. And reducing the DPS of the (ER)PPC by 33% will do tons to put it back online with other weapons in its class. The nice thing is that it won't really affect the poptart/sniper tactic per se - they couldn't sustain max RoF for very long anyway. What this will do is turn the ERPPC into the long-range sniping weapon that it should be, rather than the all-range powerhouse that it is now.

Edited by Void Angel, 16 May 2013 - 05:51 PM.

[Void Angel]

Bwahahahahahaha.

Niko Snow, on 17 May 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Brace yourself!

By the way, is it sad that I unconsciously scheduled a doctor's appointment I made today around patch release?