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#81 dal10

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 06:38 AM

View PostGyrok, on 03 August 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:



You are trying to rationalize fiction...it never works out well for people who try to do so, however, you are clearly making assumptions about a few things. I would like to help you clear that up some...

(1) You assume that the invasion that had been planned for YEARS, was poorly thought out and supplied on a whim. Reality dictates that the Clans, who were superior strategists in many respects, would have planned resupply in advance. As a tactician, you are going on offensive light years away, your invasion waves would have resupply waves between them as your waves left. Therefore you would not be waiting to call for resupply that would come much later, you would anticipate what you would need and have it coming to arrive at the expected interval it would be needed. The shortfall of this is that you would have to take what you planned to bring for resupply and anything else would need to be improvised. Retooling factories would never be any part of any equation for an invading force that had no intentions of long term occupation. Their goal was Terra, once they conquered that, retooling and rebuilding would be thought about. Otherwise they would simply be scavenging for materials to improvise things they needed.

(2) Each wave of the invasion would also bring it's own supplies up front, even the first wave. If you think the Clans flew light years to invade and showed up with just 'mechs and pilots...you're extremely naive, or have no experience in strategically, logistically, and tactically planning anything.

(3) You have to understand, news traveled slowly then, the Clans likely had 20+ worlds on the periphery captured before any of the word traveled to the heads of the respective governments. Additionally, they likely did not anticipate the threat was as grave as it was until the Clans had advanced much further. They would expect that, as in the past, it was simply some raiders or other group, and the militia level units would take care of the issue before it became something big enough they needed to deal with directly. It wasn't until large swaths of the Inner Sphere were decimated that they began to realize how seriously threatened they really were. Even then, it wasn't until the heads of their respective governments were shown the map with the invaded territory that they realized how hard they were hit.

(4) Toward the end of the invasion, the resupply situation was getting to the point it was more serious, however, through the beginning and middle waves, opposition was so poorly outfitted, poorly trained, and poorly manned, that there really was very little in terms of invasion cost. It is likely the Clans arrived into the more heavily fortified areas with little to no supply issues what-so-ever, however, it was the high cost of the war of attrition with the heavier fortified Inner Sphere worlds that depleted their supplies, mechs, and manpower. At the point this began to occur, you could expect that some clan leaders would have expected an easy march all the way to Terra based on the initial resistance being sparse and untrained. Though, once they got into the heart of the Inner Sphere, the resistance would have been more significant, and they would be glad they had accounted for the supplies they did on the way in.

Hopefully that clears up some of the confusion you have about the invasion.

1: the outbound light was captured most of the way through 3048. the invasion happened in 3050. you are telling me that an invasion that was sparked by an event that happened 2 years earlier was planned for YEARS. lets say they had 2 years. that is just enough time to get to the IS and back.

2: you are making assumptions here as well, you are assuming each particular wave was a different set of warriors. yet nothing i have heard of supports this. the same units would attack again and again leaving behind provisional troops to defend captured worlds. (while yes there would likely be supply waves behind them, an invasion of this magnitude would have already stretched the clans transportation to its limits. so resupply would be limited and unreliable.)

3: wave 1 and 2 were mostly unopposed(other than units posted to that region.). 3 onwards however were not. (twycross and wolcott were both during the wave 3 time period.) twycross the falcons lost half a galaxy of troops, the jaguars lost most of a cluster. these losses could not be immediately replaced. also, the map thing was false. each government knew exactly how much they had lost. they didn't know how hard everyone else was hit though.

4: i think i already pointed out that only wave 1 and 2 were unopposed.

hopefully that clears up some of the confusion you have about the invasion.

#82 Morloka

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 11:57 AM

You guys might as well be arguing the fact the Palpatine was able to take the whole Star Wars galaxy by getting rid of a few thousand Jedi.

#83 Morloka

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 12:04 PM

The fact of the matter is that it COULD work and it DID work because the people that made it up IMAGINED it that way. In the face of this, all other logic or insight is null. You study and argue a created world, you might as well tell me that a drawing I make of a fish is actually a bird.

*edited to fix fat finger work*

Edited by Morloka, 05 August 2013 - 12:06 PM.


#84 Lukoi Banacek

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 01:38 PM

Between theorycraft and the political science/history of non-existent universes of pulp-fiction writers and TT game developers, these forums will never get old :wacko:

Edited by Lukoi, 05 August 2013 - 01:38 PM.


#85 dal10

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 03:03 PM

i just get tired of the clan supporters whining that comstars army was imagined up to deny them certain victory of the inner sphere to keep the story going when an invasion of that magnitude and distance is so unrealistic, fasanomics or otherwise.

#86 Thorn Hallis

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 12:00 AM

View PostGyrok, on 03 August 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

Reality dictates that the Clans, who were superior strategists in many respects...


The Clans are a lot, but grand strategists ain't one of them.

#87 CyclonerM

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 12:38 AM

View PostThorn Hallis, on 06 August 2013 - 12:00 AM, said:


The Clans are a lot, but grand strategists ain't one of them.


The Clans just supposed to get a quick victory against the Inner Sphere forces. They were wrong.

#88 Lukoi Banacek

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 07:50 PM

View Postdal10, on 05 August 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

i just get tired of the clan supporters whining that comstars army was imagined up to deny them certain victory of the inner sphere to keep the story going when an invasion of that magnitude and distance is so unrealistic, fasanomics or otherwise.


I'm a Clan fan....who said Comstar was "made up to deny certain victory?"

If folks read the books, they'll see Comstar's army of Mechs isn't just hinted at, it's flat out identified to the reader (not the rest of the IS) well before the invasion even began. The duplicity/treachery of Primus What'sherface was a primary story arc before Clans were even introduced.

edit: "Warrior: Riposte" was the latest the Comstar Army is mentioned. They weren't dreamed up last minute to deny the Clans victory as if the writers (of lore books and game books) accidently opened up a pandora's box they couldn't find a solution to.

Edited by Lukoi, 06 August 2013 - 07:55 PM.


#89 dal10

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 09:57 PM

View PostJohn Kerensky, on 01 July 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

Surprise only lasts so long, and they had a LOT of worlds to slough through on their way to Terra.

They did have superior troops, but they were trained for honor duels, not actual real war.

They had superior tech. Heck, they even out-classed what the ComGuards had, but again, the whole honor duels versus actual real war threw them for a loop.

Also they were vastly out numbered. Even so, they could probably have cut much more deeply into the Inner Sphere probably conquered the whole shebang (or at least up to Terra) if not for the Deus Ex Machina that is the Great Refusal of Tukayyid (which shouldn't have even happened, since those who declared it were not of the Clans, and thus had no right initiating such a trial).

EDIT: My mistake; it was a Trial of Possession (for Terra), which I guarantee you the IS would not have honored had they lost.

View Posttrycksh0t, on 02 July 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

It is very simple, all because of Anastius Focht. Much as I hate ComStar, Focht deserves a lot of credit. He manipulated the Clans and lured them into a battle they couldn't win. The Clanners were so convinced of their supriority they didn't realize Focht was using their own tactics to work against them.

Superior Tactics > Better Tech in the hands of idiots who refuse to adapt.

Had the war continued as it was, without the Trial on Tukayyid, I suspect the Clans would have taken most, if not the entirety, of the Sphere. Then their problem would have become how to hold it.


View PostGremlich Johns, on 03 July 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

The Clans did not dominate the IS because they were not supposed to. Period.

The fiction was written so as to sell more crap fiction - Stackpole really does suck as a writer.. The Clans were just used as a device to perpetuate content development.

If I had it my way, the Blood Spirits would have formed the core of the mentality of the Clans (with CBS being the ONLY clan not possessed of a Totem animal) and promoted the matra "Neither Crusader nor Warden, We are Clan" and become the ilClan and led the Clans to resurrect the Star League after reclaiming terra (Screw Comstar and do not barter away leverage) and keet any one House from dominating. This would have allowed ALL of the IS inhabitants a fair shot and the Clans a logical conclusion.

by the way, IMHO, Stackpole sold out. .

Let the trolling begin.....


View PostBuck Rogers, on 01 July 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Yep, as others said.

Comstar was like "Looks like the inner sphere is doomed 'cause we don't have a secret army of Star League fresh battlemechs or the trained pilots to drive them. Comstar would never hide such a huge secret from the rest of the Inner Sphere. LOL just kidding."


#90 Lukoi Banacek

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:12 AM

DA, appreciate the quotes but only two of those actually point to the Comstar army as a writer's contrivance and to those guys I'd point out as I did above that Comstar's army was written of BEFORE the clans. They need to read or reread the fiction if they do not know that.

As for their other arguments, I won't bother with the patently false ones or purely opinions. That was not why I jumped in lol. You are right though, some need to read their nerd books more before commenting :unsure:

#91 dal10

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 04:23 PM

i found the post i mentioned where people thought i was joking that comstar's army was made up to beat the clans. look through the battle of tukkayyid question thread. if reinforces my point.

#92 Fatebringer

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:23 AM

Quote

The only known Clans in BattleTech Canon during the current timeline include:


What is the current Timeline?

#93 CyclonerM

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 11:07 AM

View PostFatebringer, on 13 November 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:


What is the current Timeline?

3050.. But they seems to have dropped it.

#94 dal10

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 12:05 PM

they paused it like last year until they can implement the clans.

#95 CyclonerM

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:33 AM

So they have dropped it temporarily.

#96 dal10

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 11:04 AM

Supposedly

#97 CyclonerM

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 11:07 AM

Hopefully

#98 Deathz Jester

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:59 AM

possibly

#99 CyclonerM

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 02:31 AM

Sadly

#100 Will9761

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 06:57 PM

I'm getting tired of looking at the same old Faction Icons, I hope we get new Faction Icons for the following Clans:
Wolf
Jade Falcon
Ghost Bear
Diamond Shark?
Steel Viper
Smoke Jaguar
Nova Cat

C 'mon, I wanna see some Clan vs Inner Sphere forum action ready!

Edited by Will9761, 21 November 2013 - 07:03 PM.






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