253 replies to this topic

[Scarlett Avignon]

The way to make poptarting stop is if JJ's worked like they should, delivering a fast, powerful jump instead of a slow, easy to aim during climb.

[Just wanna play]

Franklen Avignon, on 26 April 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

The way to make poptarting stop is if JJ's worked like they should, delivering a fast, powerful jump instead of a slow, easy to aim during climb.

good idea, but what about fall damage and leaving a portion of your fuel left over after a jump to catch yourself? then lights would be constantly smashing their legs apart (imo the sider is very easily damaged by fall damage)

lol and also, if it was nearly instant, my 5v could "warp" out of the way of people trying to shoot it, i mean, what can aim at something 70m in the air unless its far away anyways??

[Hex Pallett]

Franklen Avignon, on 26 April 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

The way to make poptarting stop is if JJ's worked like they should, delivering a fast, powerful jump instead of a slow, easy to aim during climb.

I personally like the sound of it. It would also make Death From Above a much easier tactic when the collision is enabled again.

[Just wanna play]

Helmstif, on 26 April 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

I personally like the sound of it. It would also make Death From Above a much easier tactic when the collision is enabled again.

well you wouldn't exactly want it to be "easy"

[Hex Pallett]

Just wanna play, on 26 April 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

well you wouldn't exactly want it to be "easy"

It's up for the balancing. Right now I don't see how could a Highlander DFA anyone except for overheated foes or surprise butt sex. The lifting is just too slow.

EDIT: Okay. Just had a series of games infested with poptarts and ended with one in Tourmaline. We got absolutely destroyed despite having three DDC - THREE DDC! - because they had like five or so poptarting Highlanders.

That's it. I'm not coming back until something is done about it.

Edited by Helmstif, 26 April 2013 - 09:41 PM.

[VonRunnegen]

NRP, on 26 April 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

...
And to the rest of you short-sighted fools, nerfing energy weapons via a heat cap or whatever other ridiculous ideas are rattling around in your heads is not the answer. Half of what is hitting your CT now is gauss fire anyway.

Yeah there is Gauss fire too - but it is ammo limited, more than twice the slots & more than twice as heavy before ammo is counted and has a big downside if anyone does manage to crack your armour. Its also got much slower projectiles meaning the sniper has to work a bit harder.

Don't get me wrong, people can and will snipe with Gauss but the scale of sacrifice is very different. Mix in the lack of many chassis that can bulk-equip Gauss especially on the less aim-restrictive arms and you see why its PPCs not Gauss that people rant about.

Edited by VonRunnegen, 27 April 2013 - 02:55 AM.

[ssm]

The root of the problem problem with FOTM is stacking - 1-2 poptarters per team is just nuisance, 4-5 is somewhat a problem.

And now we got this all-across-weight-class-board tourney, so everybody's back to playing their favourite class. I've seen packs of Hunchies & Cents tearing into LL/PPC Stalkers and whole lances of lights dancing around and ripping PPC/Gauss Landers to shreds.

[Asheron Storm]

This thread is rather foolish. You may not like "poptarting", but that hardly means it needs to be "fixed" or "nerfed". It just means there's a viable tactic out there that you don't like.

I've been in more than a few matches lately with some "poptarting" mechs.. I've occasionally engaged in the tactic myself. No matter what side of the match you're in, these mechs aren't indestructible. When their are poptarting 'mechs on both sides, those matches don't often go to time, so someone must be getting killed. My Max damage using this tactic isn't as high as my max damage using certain other tactics.. just that being the only 'mech to charge forward usually doesn't work out so well for me either.

The tactic doesn't work in tabletop, but that's a deficiency in Battletech rules, which has a separate movement and firing phase, not a deficiency in this game. It would be foolish to try to transfer the deficiencies from one version of the game into another version of the game.

No doubt, as time marches on, there will be other tactics that you don't like as well. That's something you're just going to have to live with. Not everybody wants to do things the same way you do. "Brawling" isn't gone from the game simply because poptarting exists. I also have no doubt that "poptarting" will cease to dominate as it now does, when there is a wider variety of 'mechs available. Right now, we only suffer from a basic "sameness" of the 'mechs which have been released lately. The Blackjack also continues that trend. The trend in 'mech similarity will eventually break, however, and with it the trend in similar tactics.

[Damon Howe]

The solution is simple: Collision Damage for 70 tons of metal falling from the sky without softening the landing.

Right now the damage is laughable. Realistically? Should probably blow the legs clean off (or at least take off half the armor in one fell swoop).

Problem: Solved.

And for those "It's a viable tactic man", yes, it is. Gamewise. But you tell me; if you fall off the roof and land on your feet, and nothing is there to soften the blow, do you simply brush yourself off and go back to work or do you roll on the ground in pain because you just broke an ankle? (well, depending on the height of the roof...)

[Scarlett Avignon]

Just wanna play, on 26 April 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

good idea, but what about fall damage and leaving a portion of your fuel left over after a jump to catch yourself? then lights would be constantly smashing their legs apart (imo the sider is very easily damaged by fall damage)

lol and also, if it was nearly instant, my 5v could "warp" out of the way of people trying to shoot it, i mean, what can aim at something 70m in the air unless its far away anyways??

Think MWLL. The jump is very fast. You don't' start out like a rocket lifting off a launchpad, you feel like you actually make a leap. There is still time to use your JJ's to brace yourself for a landing, but not much. Makes JJing require skill to perform, not just a simple procedure with little risk.

[Just wanna play]

Franklen Avignon, on 27 April 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

Think MWLL. The jump is very fast. You don't' start out like a rocket lifting off a launchpad, you feel like you actually make a leap. There is still time to use your JJ's to brace yourself for a landing, but not much. Makes JJing require skill to perform, not just a simple procedure with little risk.

lol and what about my 5v being able to "warp" 70 m into the air?? then again, spider is already balanced out to have supreme mobility

sure would make my 5v fun as hell.......

[Lord of All]

Jump jets are not supposed to allow hovering and I've seen that, They augment the muscular on the legs, They are far too powerful while the actual leg launch is underpowered. Fix that and the physics alone will make poptarding too brutal for heavy mechs to be viable poptarders.

Also lose the fuel and make a cooldown period to limit the timespan between jumps.

Edited by Lord of All, 27 April 2013 - 06:44 AM.

[Scarlett Avignon]

Lord of All, on 27 April 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

Also lose the fuel and make a cooldown period to limit the timespan between jumps.

This right here. JJ "fuel" refills way too fast. Should be at least 20-30 seconds between jumps.

[Tarl Cabot]

Helmstif, on 26 April 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

It's up for the balancing. Right now I don't see how could a Highlander DFA anyone except for overheated foes or surprise butt sex. The lifting is just too slow.

EDIT: Okay. Just had a series of games infested with poptarts and ended with one in Tourmaline. We got absolutely destroyed despite having three DDC - THREE DDC! - because they had like five or so poptarting Highlanders.

That's it. I'm not coming back until something is done about it.

And how were those DDC utilized? If they more or less marched across open country cause they had no fear for LRMs then they failed to alter their tactics. What the ECM does for them though is prevent the enemy from getting a solid and consistent targeting square around themselves. And unless the DDC are presenting themselves one at a time, generally the jumpers are not targeting the same mech.

What highlanders and capahracts do bring to the table is their behavior, which can be used against them and that is their choice of locations. Depending on map, use their choice of location against them by either being prepared to be there before or right after they get there or make them come to you.

And food for thought, the main difference between jumpers and LRM boats is that the jumpers do need direct line of sight of their targets whereas LRM boats do not as long as they have a spotter. It is only then that ECM comes into play, again.

[Asheron Storm]

Damon Howe, on 27 April 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

And for those "It's a viable tactic man", yes, it is. Gamewise. But you tell me; if you fall off the roof and land on your feet, and nothing is there to soften the blow, do you simply brush yourself off and go back to work or do you roll on the ground in pain because you just broke an ankle? (well, depending on the height of the roof...)

Depending on the height of the roof indeed. When I was a child, I used to jump off my deck, which I figure was about 4 or 5 times my height ( a Highlander can jump about twice it's height). I never once broke anything in doing so. I have some knee problems now that I'm older, after a life-time not only of jumping off that deck, but throwing people and being thrown in my Jiu-Jitsu classes and whatever other abuse I decided to put my knees through. If my knees are still working after decades of abuse, certainly a heavy or assault mech can finish a combat and make it back in for maintenance before it's legs take any serious damage from jumping. In tabletop 'mechs only risk damaging their legs from jumping if they're landing in rough terrain and (I believe) if they were being dropped into a location. In other words, 'mechs seem to be sturdier than some people would give them credit for.

Again though, yes it's annoying seeing so many people using the same "tactic", but the fix to this can probably be found in releasing more mechs with different capabilities.

[Alamarian]

Asheron Storm, on 27 April 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Again though, yes it's annoying seeing so many people using the same "tactic", but the fix to this can probably be found in releasing more mechs with different capabilities.

What capabilities would negate the current high alpha poptart metagame? I can't think of any new mech configurations that would make an alpha striking poptart sniper quake in fear, other than another high alpha sniper build, but I'd love to hear of such a thing.

[Hex Pallett]

Alamarian, on 27 April 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

I can't think of any new mech configurations that would make an alpha striking poptart sniper quake in fear, other than another high alpha sniper build, but I'd love to hear of such a thing.

There are three. One is Awesome 9M with three PPC/ERPPC/mix and a giant engine. The speed and armshields makes them hard to aim and kill for a poptart. Another one is 6xPPC Stalker - well, the best way to counter massive pinpoint damage is MASSIVE pinpoint damage.

And there're back-biting Spiders. Which actually kinda works.

I think the whole poptarting situation is caused by JJ-sniping being too easy, and the fact that pinpoint damage has become the go-to tactic for everyone right now. The latter might not be the biggest cause, since there hasn't been really that much blames concerning 6xPPC Stalker or 4xPPC anything. But still.

[Uspez]

The anti-poptart/JJ comments may as well be saying, "make the game less fun". JJs are great when brawling, ERPPCs are also great when brawling so lets nerf both to stop poptarts but at the same time hurt brawlers and all other viable builds that use JJs and ERPPCs???? No.

More balanced drops will fix most problems so lets not take the fun out of the game!

[TruePoindexter]

ssm, on 27 April 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

The root of the problem problem with FOTM is stacking - 1-2 poptarters per team is just nuisance, 4-5 is somewhat a problem.

If a team is stacking 4-5 jump snipers they can't have a strong front line or fast mech disposition. These things are always trade offs and there are ways to beat them quite easily. Please I strongly urge everyone to take the same and really think about the implications of jump sniping (heck sniping in general). You'll find it has some giant weaknesses for you to exploit.

Alamarian, on 27 April 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

What capabilities would negate the current high alpha poptart metagame? I can't think of any new mech configurations that would make an alpha striking poptart sniper quake in fear, other than another high alpha sniper build, but I'd love to hear of such a thing.

Ask any serious high alpha sniper and they will complain about the same thing - fast flankers. There is literally nothing a jump sniper can do about a fast mech in their back field. Even if that mech doesn't kill them it distracts them from doing what they should be doing - sniping. Plus that fast flanker could choose to simply not engage at all and cap their base. An HGN-732 in sniping position on a map like Alpine or Tourmaline will never make it back to base in time. I regularly defeat jump snipers by not fighting them at all.

Helmstif, on 27 April 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

There are three. One is Awesome 9M with three PPC/ERPPC/mix and a giant engine. The speed and armshields makes them hard to aim and kill for a poptart. Another one is 6xPPC Stalker - well, the best way to counter massive pinpoint damage is MASSIVE pinpoint damage.

And there're back-biting Spiders. Which actually kinda works.

I think the whole poptarting situation is caused by JJ-sniping being too easy, and the fact that pinpoint damage has become the go-to tactic for everyone right now. The latter might not be the biggest cause, since there hasn't been really that much blames concerning 6xPPC Stalker or 4xPPC anything. But still.

If you think it's too easy then run one. Seriously - if you can't beat them join them. If it really is the way to win every game than everyone would be doing it. They're not because it's not the go-to-tactic. It's a handy one for certain situations but what wins games is teamwork. Individual tactics will take you so far but a coordinated team will crush an uncoordinated one jump snipers or no.

[Lord of All]

No, the root of the problem is JJ are not Jetpacks. They boost a jump. They need a redesign. To use them there needs to be a timer on the JJ button, the longer you hold it down the more boost you get on the jump up to the max boost. This will also facilitate a nice learning curve for each type mech which is quite realistic.