314 replies to this topic

[TOGSolid]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 26 April 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

Even this guy sees the problem lol
Guess there should be a rotational mod system then. You stay in for so long, but when you start getting worn down and start acting unprofessional, theyre replaced with fresh guys who arent apt to act that way.

That's entirely up to whoever picks them. How many people would really volunteer to be a mod around here knowing how people behave and the absurd levels of stupid **** that get flung around? I know couldn't do it because I'd be let go in a hurry after I banned half of the chucklefucks around here and then set up a giant ASCII throne in K-Town. Joking aside, this board is almost Infowars grade with all of the ******* nutty crap that gets said and I sure as **** wouldn't want to deal with any of it.

Edited by TOGSolid, 26 April 2013 - 11:22 PM.

[BoydofZINJ]

Where do i post non important Battletech/MechWarrior information (i.e. General Discussion) ?

For example, I like the color red. The Raven 3L is a bit weaksauce now. The PPC Apocalypse of 2013 has gone away? I have seen fewer pop tarts today than I would have imagined with no patch to nerf them.

Edited by Boydsan, 26 April 2013 - 11:26 PM.

[Chavette]

Still beating around the bush?

No problem. You wont see me coming back here for a while.

One way you could of done it is the hot topic heatsink way, why isn't it possible to post in gameplay discussion and the subforums too? Same for the barrack area. Or you could make anything posted in the barrack subforum visible in the barrack mainforum too... but to be honest I don't see the point of a barrack forum when name&shame is not allowed, how is one supposed to talk about his battles when he can't post images of the ppl taking part in it?

[Hador]

I like to have a structured forum/subforums...


But imho most topics have been split into way too many subforums now (especially General Discussion) for me to feel comfortable with it...

[superbob]

I liked the GD forum for how random and general it was, so I could visit there and roughly see the state of the community at the time... Or rather the state of the QQ. I wasn't kidding myself about how uninformative the place got at times, but it was entertaining to me regardless.

However, I can understand why someone who is looking to improve the transparency of forum feedback wouldn't want the GD around anymore. After every patch the first few pages suddenly became a rage and QQ circlejerk of self perpetuating forum trolls and ADHD kids. It usually took a trip to the patch feedback forum to see what it was about anyway.

Honestly I hope the new layout works out, although I'd like the GD back just for my convenience and entertainment. It takes too many browser tabs right now to find where the funniest rage threads are.

[Jestun]

superbob, on 27 April 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

However, I can understand why someone who is looking to improve the transparency of forum feedback wouldn't want the GD around anymore.

Nothing makes feedback more transparent than hiding it away where no one can find it.

It becomes so transparent it's invisible!

[superbob]

Jestun, on 27 April 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

Nothing makes feedback more transparent than hiding it away where no one can find it.

It becomes so transparent it's invisible!

To re-iterate, GD was fun because of all the drama and hot topics, but these pretty much drowned out all the less popular discussion threads. The problem is some folks still tried posting genuine feedback in GD, which got instantly buried, and the sad and angry mods still had to dig through the stuff despite it not being discussed much.

As sad as it sounds, many forum users are too dumb to read past the front page, so mods are trying to split the forums so there can be more "front pages" where less popular threads can hang out. (honestly I don't think it will work that well)

[Jestun]

superbob, on 27 April 2013 - 12:37 AM, said:

To re-iterate, GD was fun because of all the drama and hot topics, but these pretty much drowned out all the less popular discussion threads. The problem is some folks still tried posting genuine feedback in GD, which got instantly buried, and the sad and angry mods still had to dig through the stuff despite it not being discussed much.

As sad as it sounds, many forum users are too dumb to read past the front page, so mods are trying to split the forums so there can be more "front pages" where less popular threads can hang out. (honestly I don't think it will work that well)

I'll quote myself to save writing out a similar thing here.

Jestun, on 27 April 2013 - 12:41 AM, said:

Check my sig.

There are currently 88 forums / subforums if you discount the archive section.

How many do you regularly check?


Forums are to promote discussion, not just a single persons feedback. If that's all they want then they should dump the forums and use a bug report-like system offering 1 way feedback.

With the new splitting of the forums discussions are less likely as they are spread out across so many places that it's entirely unrealistic to expect as many people to view them.

[Critical Fumble]

TOGSolid, on 26 April 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

So the areas that were previously shielded from the jackasses due GD sucking them all up are subsequently having less quality discussion because these people have migrated over?

And yet people are arguing that GD had more quality discussion. El oh el.

Ignoring the trolls, general was the most visible board. The stereotypical Facebook/Twitter acknowledgement junkies spent most of their key presses there; leaving suggestions and game balance with the people who could work out ideas for improvements and solutions to problems. You could use general in conjunction with some logic to get a feel for how the playerbase was adjusting to changes, as well as rough spots that may need to be dealt with. What you couldn't (easily) do is have a reasonable discussion about that issue, as every 2-3 posts would consist of someone dropping in and saying something to the effect of, "I have an opinion, and that makes it a fact!"

The effect was something of a "you must be this mature to enter" rule, because if all you want is acknowledgment, you'll never go anywhere except the most frequented board. If there was an easy way to do do that by force we wouldn't even be discussing this. But because there isn't an easy way to do it, and removing general hasn't pushed the non-constructive posters offsite to someplace like Facebook or Twitter, so I'd like to see a return of a general board. Better managed and orderly, perhaps, but a "bait" forum would be nice so that when I look at the suggestions and feedback areas I don't have the urge to post, "Hush now, the grown-ups are talking."

[TOGSolid]

Hador, on 27 April 2013 - 12:03 AM, said:

I like to have a structured forum/subforums...


But imho most topics have been split into way too many subforums now (especially General Discussion) for me to feel comfortable with it...

This I do agree with. A lot of the guide forums, for instance, are completely redundant. They would be better served by being merged with the main discussion forums. Having each respective forum be a one stop shop for both discussion and guides would be a much better system.

Quote

but a "bait" forum would be nice so that when I look at the suggestions and feedback areas I don't have the urge to post, "Hush now, the grown-ups are talking."

Funnily enough we have exactly that. K-Town was meant to be a gigantic trolling sponge. Instead it's one of the most laid back forums to hang out in.

Someone's plan kinda backfired there.

Your post is incredibly correct and I've got no real argument. It's just that the feeding frenzy of asshatery that happened in GD unfortunately just makes us all look bad. When a new guy clicks on GD and sees a bunch of guys commenting about how PGI are space communist weeaboos trying to steal our pension funds and how MWO is actually an illuminati rootkit, it's not exactly a good impression. GD is the most visible and with how it used to be, that was definitely not a good thing.

Really it just comes down to hiring some mods who aren't afraid to beat people into submission. The best community forums tend to be the ones with unbiased moderators who aren't afraid to kick someone square in the ****.

Edited by TOGSolid, 27 April 2013 - 01:05 AM.

[RedDragon]

jeffsw6, on 26 April 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

An open, General Discussion forum is needed. The fault with it is with the moderators, not posters. The reason there were 20 PPC QQ threads every day, and 20 LRM ones before that, and so on, is because the moderators are not effective. They don't merge threads or move them into a more appropriate sub-forum except when they've grown frustrated with particular posters or subjects, and then, they do it en-masse and create anger among posters.

That is stupid. It's why PGI probably needs more effective community staffers than the ones they've got. Moving or merging threads should be routine, and not seen as "suppressing discussion" by players; but the moderators' actions have created the current, negative atmosphere. It's upon them to use the tools at their disposal -- simple moving/merging threads -- to have a wider variety of discussion topics in General, and to encourage actual use of the sub-forums, instead of treating them as a dumping ground for unwanted opinions.

TL;DR: The fault lies with unprofessional moderators, not posters.

I agree to some degree with this, but I wouldn't blame it on the moderators. I guess it's the policy under which they act that made GD so a messed up place. Apart from some bannings because people really stepped out of line, there were absolutely no consequences for acting like a douche on GD. There were so many people who posted one idiotic topic after the other and in the best case they only got deleted or moved to offtopic. Or people only posting memes or other unqualified bullsh*t as responses. No one had to fear any consequences for polluting GD (or any other forum for that matter).
We even had an announcement from one of the staff-members that they now would be more rigid in enforcing the rules, but nothing ever happened. After all it's nearly always the same guys who spam all the threads and create useless topics.

If someone posts a spam topic once, delete or move it. If he again posts one, delete it and give him a warning. If he does it again, ban him. So easy and people would think twice before cluttering up the whole place. If you want to spam, go to offtopic.


Oh, and nearly forgot: If PGI would just fix the game, listen to the community and make their doings more transparent for us beta testers, there wouldn't be a need for so many duplicate threads.
If you see that the community finds PPCs overpowered, just investigate the problem, make an official topic/poll whre you collect feedback and talk to the users about it. What's so hard about it?

Edited by RedDragon, 27 April 2013 - 01:07 AM.

[Inertiamon]

IF we are to remain in Over-Nested Unusuable Forum Hell could someone at least turn on some more usefull forum tools, subbed threads view, new threads view etc

[jozkhan]

It exactly is the moderation (or rather failure of the moderation team) that is at fault here. This isnt the front line of internet rowdy forums by any means, it's pretty tame just by gaming forum standards and as Alexa and other places shows the level of overall traffic is low and in decline since launch.

Not only that but as beta testers and deeply committed to the success of the battletech / mechwarrior franchise these players are gold dust.

The mod team have been heavy handed and if anyone is being 'passive aggressive' its them, does any other mod team call their customers passive aggressive? Or name themselves luddite liaison?

Look at high density, high traffic sites like ATS or League of Legends or any of the bigger games, they manage and they manage effortlessly. Have you checked out the size of the mod team here? It's disproportionately huge.

While some of the blame has to lie with the management style (that 'Honest answer' stuff about 3rd person has my friends and family just falling about) no adversarial style of moderation is going to work and how this can be allowed to go on with the lasting damage it must be doing to player retention is extremely concerning.

Edited by jozkhan, 27 April 2013 - 01:38 AM.

[Purplefluffybunny]

I praise the fact that a poll has appeared on this issue. It is beyond me why you guys do not ask our opinions before making changes. This is not the first time. For example just consider the unilateral changes to the TS3 servers, made without consultation. I hope this lesson has been learnt and that you consult us first before making changes like this.

I would like to state now that it is disingenuous to title a set of sub-forums as 'general discussion' because what follows under that category is anything but 'general'. We still don't have a general discussion area?

Edited by Purplefluffybunny, 27 April 2013 - 01:54 AM.

[Faithsfall]

Someone posted that without general chat and the mess all the subforums have become, that they wouldn't play as much and I thought that seems a bit extreme.

But i have to say in my case they were right.

Let me explain i would have general discussion up and play 2-3 matches, then see what had been posted in general if it was an issue i might swap out my loadout and try that etc or look at the web page while searching for a match, i'm now finding i have a different game site up instead of the MWO one or even another game and i have found i might have 2-3 games but instead of 2-3 matches check what's going on then droping back in for another 2-3 matches i am doing 2-3 matches and then checking out another game to see what the general community is talking about over there.

I will continue to play MWO but at a far more reduced rate mainly as i'm not finding the interest generated by the community that was once present in general discusion.

[maXe72]

Well, the ones that is complaining about bad things must be grateful if his voice becomes recognized.

So thanks for giving us back some "Gerneral DIscussion Coolingdown Place" !!

The Polls even makes me smile as it makes me feel you guys realy did go through the post in this
gigantic Forum structure change Thread.

Thumbs up on this !

[TOGSolid]

Quote

If you see that the community finds PPCs overpowered, just investigate the problem, make an official topic/poll whre you collect feedback and talk to the users about it. What's so hard about it?

Because even when they do that people were STILL making duplicate threads bitching about it. They've said that MGs and PPCs and LRMs/SRMs are all being worked on. Hell, a new missile system is in testing right now.

Does that stop people from claiming PGI nerfed everything and is incompetent and doesn't listen and blah blah blah? Nope.

Quote

We even had an announcement from one of the staff-members that they now would be more rigid in enforcing the rules, but nothing ever happened. After all it's nearly always the same guys who spam all the threads and create useless topics.

Funny though how things have gotten a bit more tolerable around here though now that GD is gone.


Anyhoo, getting back on that "organizing things better" topic:
Rules & Guidelines and FAQs can be easily merged into a one stop shop forum. There is exactly one thread in the FAQ forum so why not stuff it in with R&G and call it R&G & FAQs or something like that?

TRAINING GROUNDS
-Almost the entirety of Guides and Strategies can and should be merged with the new General Discussion sub-forums that all share the same name thus turning them into a convenient one stop shop for all discussion regarding the appropriate topic.

-Battlemech Guides could become a sub-forum of Mechs.

-Tactics & Teamwork feels very redundant what with the gameplay and metagame sub-forums and has pretty much squat for actual usage. Could easily get rolled in with the gameplay forum.

-Mech Controls should be part of the hardware forum since they cover identical topics. With every update that improves joystick integration this forum is going to get more redundant anyway.

-Starting Guides are all essentially FAQ style things which means that R&G&FAQ can essentially be turned into one giant New Pilot Starting Point.

-Help a Player can stay as is. It serves a very specific purpose and does it well.

DEV CORNER
No changes required.

MWO UNIVERSE
Much better than it was a couple days ago. Could use a couple tweaks though.

-The Barracks don't actually get used for much. There are a few posts but not a whole lot and their usage will only drop now that we have the faction specific ready rooms to do all the recruitment in. Both of the sub-forums here are really the sort of thing that SHOULD have been GD's purpose.

-Metagame: You keep using this word, I do not think it means what you think it means. The topics covered by this forum are very limited in scope and won't garner a whole lot of discussion. This would be much more readily handled by a properly moderated GD board.

-Suggestions: Is fine. It'll get a lot of threads that are duplicates from the other sub-forums but this is a really easy one stop shop spot for the devs and should stay as is.

-MWO News: This needs to be obliterated. Announcements is supposed to cover news and information. What do we need another forum for news and information for? The real solution here is that we shouldn't be getting our news from articles. PGI just needs to do a better job of posting this information straight to the forums in the Announcements forum. One very valid complaint people had was how we have to go sifting through other sources in order to get news about this game. These boards should be a one stop shop for the community to hear everything about MWO.
[shamelesswhoring]Or you could just click the link in my sig for the latest in MWO news and information, all located in one easily referenced website![/shamelesswhoring]

-Add a General Discussion board but make sure it is moderated with an iron fist. A good GD board is a great thing to have. It builds camaraderie within a community, is a good home for a lot of goofy threads that are relevant to the game but not really specific to gameplay (i.e. "Hey, so here's this great MWO story from yesterday) and for discussing the development of the game itself. It NEEDS to be moderated very closely though until people realize it is not their personal MWO Infowars forum. This is not about squashing dissent but instead about making sure that if someone has criticism that it is spelled out intelligently and in a productive manner. People posting "hur hur of course the balance sucks, look how much PGI lies" is not productive and is the sort of behavior that needs to be kicked to the curb.

SUPPORT & FEEDBACK
No changes required.

COMMUNITY HYPERPULSE GENERATOR
No changes required. I don't really hang out in there ever but it seems about as focused as it needs to be. You could probably merge some of that stuff into "Fan Media" but it's probably unecessary.

OFF TOPIC
-Off Topic and Forum Fun should be merged. FF doesn't really need to exist and only has a few threads in it. It'll also make those games get more visibility with the main OT crowd which would increase participation.

-Jettisoned Communication: So...it's K-Town only with less Jihad? Or something? It seems to serve the same general function as K-Town so you should just FEED THE PLJ MOAR POSTS. *ahem* Merge them (and still call it K-Town).

-K-Town: Best forum ever. Should be right at the top of the entire main forum list. All other forums should be a sub-forum of K-Town so that at all times the forumites can gaze upwards at the glory of K-Town and be always reminded to post better.

-Deep Periphery: I've never seen a community with a dedicated ****-talking area. Neat. This is brand new and as such, needs time to see if it's worth having around.

INTERNATIONAL LANGUAGES
Add an Esperanto board, just for laughs. (I am, of course, joking. No actual changes needed).

Edited by TOGSolid, 27 April 2013 - 02:19 AM.

[jeffsw6]

RedDragon, on 27 April 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

I agree to some degree with this, but I wouldn't blame it on the moderators. I guess it's the policy under which they act

...

Oh, and nearly forgot: If PGI would just fix the game, listen to the community and make their doings more transparent for us beta testers, there wouldn't be a need for so many duplicate threads.
If you see that the community finds PPCs overpowered, just investigate the problem, make an official topic/poll whre you collect feedback and talk to the users about it. What's so hard about it?

Fix the game would be nice. Be a bit quicker to tell players what things they are thinking of changing would also help. We're not all griping about MGs anymore because they finally said they are going to make some adjustments to it. Great! I look forward to that. In the most recent ATD, though, there is no mention of PPCs and Gauss Rifles, which are ridiculous right now. I wouldn't expect the QQing to stop because of this.

I blame it on the community leadership. I'm sure the individual volunteer moderators, and maybe some of the staff community folks, do not get to do whatever they want. The volunteer guys don't even have permission to sticky things. But you are right, most of the blame lies with whoever makes policy.

However, the "Locked!" posts, which generally happen several times a day from certain moderators, are foolish and unprofessional, and cause the problem below:

TOGSolid, on 27 April 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

Because even when they do that people were STILL making duplicate threads bitching about it. They've said that MGs and PPCs and LRMs/SRMs are all being worked on. Hell, a new missile system is in testing right now.

People still make duplicate threads because they moderate incorrectly!

20 threads a day about PPCs? Simple! Make one PPC QQ thread, sticky it in General where people will still notice it, and any new threads that also are PPC QQ, merge them into that one.

Instead, what the mods here have done, is lock threads. That is why people just make more of them, and it's why any other discussion in GD got buried -- the idiotic threads with 4 posts followed by "Locked!"

It is 100% the fault of the moderators. They need to learn how to merge and sticky, period.

[Ensaine]

PGI... you guys aren't listening.. there is no WIN here... people want GD back. Put it back already. Stop with the half measures.

[Calem]

What IGP doesn't seem to realize is that the forums *help* with player retention - players who don't want to play (either at all or as much) due to either bugs or balancing issues (broken LRMs) have a means to stay in touch with development, the game and its community - living forums. What you perceive as *work* is still caring for and thus good for the game. Customers are being kept around.

This second-layer retention net is being cut to pieces by compartmenting the forums into uselessness. So yeah, good job IGP! You're sawing the branch you're sitting on. This poor attempt of reducing forum mod workload actually results in harming the playerbase. *facepalm*

Just watch forum use statistics over the next weeks if you still fail to see the point and would like to continue denial.