166 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Roadbeer, on 28 April 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

And yet, you represented it as a real quote. Fail.

Think you need to follow that link in your sig. It applies to 90% of what you post.

Really? go look again and tell me who said it.
Fail.

[DirePhoenix]

Purplefluffybunny, on 28 April 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Cool, thank you. It does seem appropriate as the staff and owners do seem a little authoritarian in setting the terms that are 'open for debate'. It 'aint democratic when such terms of reference are not allowed to be debated or voted on.

This poll is not a vote for us to make a decision on what PGI is doing/will do with these forums. The decision is still entirely PGI's to make.

What this poll does, and what Niko is requesting from the people participating in this poll is input on which of these things the people participating in this forum would prefer (in regards to the same forum). We are not the ones making a decision here. PGI is. Whether or not the end result matches what this poll reflects is not a matter of "the people have spoken", it's a matter of PGI asking us for input for them to consider when they make their own decision.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

DirePhoenix, on 28 April 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

This poll is not a vote for us to make a decision on what PGI is doing/will do with these forums. The decision is still entirely PGI's to make.

What this poll does, and what Niko is requesting from the people participating in this poll is input on which of these things the people participating in this forum would prefer (in regards to the same forum). We are not the ones making a decision here. PGI is. Whether or not the end result matches what this poll reflects is not a matter of "the people have spoken", it's a matter of PGI asking us for input for them to consider when they make their own decision.

Again, like I said,
This thread is not about whether or not the new forum setup should it exist. Rather, we want your feedback on how it should be implemented. Understand we're not debating the merits of having the new forum setup or not.

[StringyQuark]

FORUM

1. the marketplace or public square of an ancient Roman city, the center of judicial and business affairs and a place of assembly for the people.

2. a court or tribunal: the forum of public opinion.

3. an assembly, meeting place, television program, etc., for the discussion of questions of public interest.

4. the Forum, the forum in the ancient city of Rome.


I gave it a couple days but I still don't like the removal of GD. It was like the main hall for assembly, or the floor of the U.S. congress. Shutting down GD (to me) is like shutting down the floor or congress or parliament and telling them they can only meet in small groups in their offices.

I can be ugly in government and on forums, and I can't always watch.

I can not imagine a government that works like this except in country's I would not like to live in.

I guess I feel the same about these forums.

i understand the game and the forums, like the place I work, are not a democracy. These are dictatorships in democratic country's. Being in democratic country's, however, mean most of us share democratic ideals.

But to me the removal of the GD section (to me) is like the limiting of freedom of assembly.
like the government telling us we can gather, just no longer at the national mall.
Maybe that is why I have such a dislike for this move.


TL;DR I would like the GD section back the way it was.

(please excuse the bad metaphors, and the writing, neither are my strong suit.)

Edited by StringyQuark, 28 April 2013 - 03:15 PM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Roadbeer, on 28 April 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

And yet, you represented it as a real quote. Fail.

Think you need to follow that link in your sig. It applies to 90% of what you post.

troll is late troll.

a poster asked if quote was real and the response was a modified quote of one that exsisted with slight sarcastic tones taking older policy and blending it into the situation now, if you trolled before said explanation we may of thought you as clever.

seriously though people do not quit just because of a forum, this is just the tip of an iceburg or a straw that broke many loyal camels backs, many people have accumulated many failings of pgi {in thier eyes} over the last 6 months and feel they're seeing little change for the better {some feel it's getting worse} and thus saving themselves from typing out a list of things they say that's it the latest thing ruined it i'm gone. it's a tantrum we all recognise but we also need to make an effort to understand that tantrums don't represent everything on a person's mind, trolling on a single rash statement is not necessary and reminds me of why many GD threads broke down and gave the community the bad rep that was percieved of it. trolls, really you need to ask if it is just these one or two foilbles that make people quit and not just jump to the pedantic whiplashing conclusions, as trolls usually do.

moving on to this...

Vassago Rain, on 28 April 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

It was their position at the time,

Purplefluffybunny, on 28 April 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

Sorry dude, I am not following you here. What do you mean?

Vassago Rain, on 28 April 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

I would post about it, but we're at a point where I can't even be bothered. Someone else will do it for me. I've got maximum armor and predator bows calling my name.

just stopping in to clarify a question of PFB to vasg.

i haven't the time to rumage for the exact quotes so correct me if this is wrong but the stance "this was are position at the time" goes back to "coolantgate" where the decision suddenly arose that coolant consumables would become a part of the gameand many people drew a quote fro paul that they were not considering/going to have it in the game and i think bryan said it woukld scupper the heat management mechanics. when these quotes and much disdain were hurled back at the devs the response was this was our position at the time along with in beta is subjected to change etc etc. so there you are.

this poll... less than 200 votes, now if polls containing 1000+ voters are considered the minority should this poll be taken seriously? you see now that we are at least given the impression that such time and effort in research given into polls on this website are not taken seriously i'm not surprised participation for these polls is at an all time low, for occasions like these 500+ voters were not uncommon. i'll state more about this in another post but yes, i'm not confident that my participation is of any use or valuable so i just abstained, further more the lists are far to narrow in choice there are many more things we can do with this websites forums and those options aren't there.

i'll continue the odd bit of lurking and i'll have a summary apprasial of the situation to post soon.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 28 April 2013 - 06:46 PM.

[Dishevel]

GalaxyBluestar, on 28 April 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

i'm not confident that my participation is of any use or valuable so i just abstained, further more the lists are far to narrow in choice there are many more things we can do with this websites forums and those options aren't there.

This.

Also the options given are still just the ones they want. It does not, nor will it ever have a "Bring back General Discussion forum". Simply put they do not want a place with that kind of freedom. They do not want it and will not stand for it.
This poll is a farce. It was put up due to the communities response to their changes and purposefully fails to include the overwhelming majority of opinions on the subject.

Also I do not care about what Facebooks "Silent Majority" of players state. This is a forum issue and the forum community spoke out.
What we got in response from IGP was a forum Called General Discussion that is filled with sub forums and no ability to post to the forum itself. This was not an accident nor was it a failure to communicate the wishes of the forum community.
This was done with full knowledge of what we asked for.
I am sorry I even voted to abstain so I deleted my vote as they could still use it in the "Final Vote" numbers that they will come out with and twist to announce their next changes to make us happy.

Edited by Dishevel, 28 April 2013 - 06:59 PM.

[zraven7]

...ok, this is getting silly.

You closed the thread concerning the deletion of general discussion, so it couldn't get any bigger. That is a little upsetting. Then, you make a "democratic" poll that is, seriously, an Orwellian mess. And no, I promise, I'm not raging, it's too early in the morning for that. It's just saddening right now. This poll is basically, "We'd like you to democratically decide which of our changes, that we've already decided upon, to implement first."

Niko, I don't know how much clearer the majority can be. If you want democratic, we already kinda were. I"d have an official poll to show you, but, well, you guys locked it. So, seriously, what gives? Is this a social experiment in applying a form double-speak to a gaming mass?

I get the "Honey Badger" reference. They don't get along with anyone and are nearly unstoppable. Is this really the persona you want to project to your customer base, though?

We know this is an Open Beta, and we know you are developing a game here, but there has to be some give. We are, for the large majority, seriously upset over the loss of General Discussion (actual General Discussion, not the renamed subforum mess). Yes, sometimes it pays to be revolutionary, but sometimes it's just not a good idea. You don't see five-wheeled cars for a reason.

To be frank, you aren't getting the turnout for this poll you like, not because we don't care, but because we don't care about any of the above questions. Yes, some people are voting because they are trying, desperately, to be a heard voice, but it's starting to feel futile for a lot of us. This is not what you want. This is not the kind of thing that makes people rage and walk away from the game, but rather slowly find other things that interest them more. You are slowly breeding disappointment and apathy, which is honestly worse for this developing game than passionate anger.

Can you level with us? What, on earth, made you decide to nuke GD at this time? And if you do answer this question, really, no politician-speak, please. Every single popular online game that has a forum has a general discussion. Is this simply a more focused phase of game development? Are you planning on re-implementing it once you receive needed data, or closer to full release?

Niko, I wanna believe you're just a guy working a job. I wanna believe you love this game as much as we all want to. Help me out here.

Edited by zraven7, 29 April 2013 - 04:19 AM.

[Inertiamon]

Earlier in the thread (or possibly another one) someone raised the excellent counter to "GD was just repetitive spam anyway" with the notion that if threads were consolidated and just left be rather than locked/moved/etc then people might actually see them and respond rather than start another one.

[zraven7]

Inertiamon, on 29 April 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

Earlier in the thread (or possibly another one) someone raised the excellent counter to "GD was just repetitive spam anyway" with the notion that if threads were consolidated and just left be rather than locked/moved/etc then people might actually see them and respond rather than start another one.

Yes and no. That one works both ways really. There are a lot of people who would have looked for an appropriate thread, but then there are a lot who would have just started the thread anywho.

I think the big thing here is calling GD "Spam". I get that the devs and mods need reliable and coherent game design feedback, and they are essentially trying to pre-sort their data. On the theoretical level, it makes some sense. The thing is, the forums isn't just a place for us to throw game data at them. It's a place for us to talk to each other, other players, about, frankly, anything. General discussion allowed the community to come together.

The thing is, this actually can provide better gaming feedback than this overly-organized current situation. People felt more free to post, and were less intimidated be possibly getting the wrong forum, and facing a lock or deletion. I'm very, very certain we've already had a slew of players who have tried to post something, only to have it locked or deleted, who proceeded to give up on the forums. Yes, they may still be playing, but we aren't hearing anything from them anymore. They gave up.

Like I said, it's breeding apathy, which is dangerous for a games quality. Yes, GD required more effort to get relevant data out of, but the data was more honest, and freely given. The current forums feel an awful lot like filing a tax return.

[Inertiamon]

Personally I can't say I ever posted anything in GD under the impression it would make a **** of difference to anyone involved with the game. Although must confess to hoping threads in Suggestions and Feedback might. Feeling a little foolish right now obviously as the only thread I've seen come to any tangible result was Vassago's R&R monster in GD......

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

zraven7, on 29 April 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

...ok, this is getting silly.

You closed the thread concerning the deletion of general discussion, so it couldn't get any bigger. That is a little upsetting. Then, you make a "democratic" poll that is, seriously, an Orwellian mess. And no, I promise, I'm not raging, it's too early in the morning for that. It's just saddening right now. This poll is basically, "We'd like you to democratically decide which of our changes, that we've already decided upon, to implement first."

Niko, I don't know how much clearer the majority can be. If you want democratic, we already kinda were. I"d have an official poll to show you, but, well, you guys locked it. So, seriously, what gives? Is this a social experiment in applying a form double-speak to a gaming mass?

I get the "Honey Badger" reference. They don't get along with anyone and are nearly unstoppable. Is this really the persona you want to project to your customer base, though?

We know this is an Open Beta, and we know you are developing a game here, but there has to be some give. We are, for the large majority, seriously upset over the loss of General Discussion (actual General Discussion, not the renamed subforum mess). Yes, sometimes it pays to be revolutionary, but sometimes it's just not a good idea. You don't see five-wheeled cars for a reason.

To be frank, you aren't getting the turnout for this poll you like, not because we don't care, but because we don't care about any of the above questions. Yes, some people are voting because they are trying, desperately, to be a heard voice, but it's starting to feel futile for a lot of us. This is not what you want. This is not the kind of thing that makes people rage and walk away from the game, but rather slowly find other things that interest them more. You are slowly breeding disappointment and apathy, which is honestly worse for this developing game than passionate anger.

Can you level with us? What, on earth, made you decide to nuke GD at this time? And if you do answer this question, really, no politician-speak, please. Every single popular online game that has a forum has a general discussion. Is this simply a more focused phase of game development? Are you planning on re-implementing it once you receive needed data, or closer to full release?

Niko, I wanna believe you're just a guy working a job. I wanna believe you love this game as much as we all want to. Help me out here.

agreed whole heartedly.

[zraven7]

Inertiamon, on 29 April 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

Personally I can't say I ever posted anything in GD under the impression it would make a **** of difference to anyone involved with the game. Although must confess to hoping threads in Suggestions and Feedback might. Feeling a little foolish right now obviously as the only thread I've seen come to any tangible result was Vassago's R&R monster in GD......

And that's why GD was so important. You posted what you felt, not what you hoped would change the game. It was honest posts, and a much better indicator of the community pulse.

[jozkhan]

Honest Answer

The player base is tanking due to the instability of the game (mainly), broken promises, loss of founders, greed of pricing and business modelling, breathtakingly contemptuous attitude towards customers, feedback and game direction, wrong implementation of game balance, pretend beta phase (er beta fatigue) and the forums - as they were - pretty clearly reflected all this.

In a total panic move the word came from on high to change the 'look and feel' of the forum so as NOT to show a clear picture to potential new customers in a desperate attempt to slow the falloff of the player base. The total inability to retain players has reached critical point.

Rather than enter project recovery, which should have happened long ago now, there is an attempt to obfuscate and misrepresent the situation not just to us the players but to the real money men: the backers.

Just like so many of us, it pains me deeply to see it all going wrong and there is nothing more I would love than to see MWO succeed and be everything it could be. But without a change of management this is headed for the rocks... soon.

Edited by jozkhan, 29 April 2013 - 05:22 AM.

[zraven7]

jozkhan, on 29 April 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

Honest Answer

The player base is tanking due to the instability of the game (mainly), broken promises, loss of founders, greed of pricing and business modelling, breathtakingly contemptuous attitude towards customers, feedback and game direction, wrong implementation of game balance, pretend beta phase (er beta fatigue) and the forums - as they were - pretty clearly reflected all this.

In a total panic move the word came from on high to change the 'look and feel' of the forum so as NOT to show a clear picture to potential new customers in a desperate attempt to slow the falloff of the player base. The total inability to retain players has reached critical point.

Rather than enter project recovery, which should have happened long ago now, there is an attempt to obfuscate and misrepresent the situation not just to us the players but to the real money men: the backers.

Just like so many of us, it pains me deeply to see it all going wrong and there is nothing more I would love than to see MWO succeed and be everything it could be. But without a change of management this is headed for the rocks... soon.

We can't get a change of management, and frankly, I think changing the management at this phase would be a disaster.

Ok, Devs, talk to us. Help us save this game.

[jozkhan]

The disaster is happening already. Change has to come from the top

[zraven7]

jozkhan, on 29 April 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

The disaster is happening already. Change has to come from the top

Maybe, maybe not, but I don't want to just give up and hope for the best.

[Inertiamon]

But then - the line remains that players are up so maybe it is and we're all misguided and wrong in that and rather than some drama the forum mods have just taken a completely misplaced bollocking for letting it be so negative. Either way my care reserves are barely holding on and I really wanted to pound this title.

[RG Notch]

zraven7, on 29 April 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

Maybe, maybe not, but I don't want to just give up and hope for the best.

Sadly that seem to be the dev team plan.

[WarHippy]

Roadbeer, on 27 April 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

Well, all I can speak from my experience is, this community was no better or worse than other game forums... that's where we agree.

But, with the changes, I can now, rifle through EVERY subforum in GenDiscs, find the information I need, reply to several well thought-out posts and my trolling of mouthbreathers is down by about 75% in about 1/3 the time it used to take me to wade through the old Gendisc... So, quicker information and less trolling = good in my eyes.

I think I summed it up better in another thread... or maybe it was this one, when someone said "Every other game has a Gendisc forum..." well, everyone used to throw their chamber pots out their window and on to the street too... huzzah indoor plumbing.

We are seeing some really different things here. Less trolling? Blinkin alone in this thread has kept the trolling to the same levels we ever had. As for quicker info I call BS because it was a lot faster and easier to get info in General Discussion than it is here. In fact it takes nearly 88 times more time to find info now than it was when all the info wasconcentrated in one place as opposed to the 88 sub-forums it is now.

[Roadbeer]

I disagree.
I can navigate quickly, only have to read the sub-forums I have interest in. People are posting better so I don't have to troll as often with "This thread is NEW and EXCITING" on the 50th redundant thread, thus allowing me to spend my time having fun in the OT forums.
I give it all a thumbs up.

YMMV.