61 replies to this topic

[Liberator]

I read so much about alpha strikes and have been the target and user myself, but is not the solution to just force chainfire?

This makes pinpoint damage so much harder to arceive and you don't need to do all these little balance fixes.

Edit 1: The fire mechanic would of course have to changed so that it would be impossible to macro-alpha. Few posters have been postive to chained weapons fire to now.


Edit 2: Having unsinked heat actually affect your mech in a negative manner would help prevent alpha strikes.
In table top games heat buildup would slow down your mech and make aiming harder.

Edit 3: why is there no spread when firing on the move?
It is not some fps game inspired mechanic.
Even table top had penalities when firinmg on the move, but it was based on if you walked or ran, so light mecs could move swiftly and suffer few penalties, while assault class mechs can hardly move before suffering "running" penalties. Jump jetting also affected your aim.

Edited by Liberator, 30 April 2013 - 07:45 AM.

[Denno]

Everyone would just use macros. Hell, some do now already.

[Asmudius Heng]

Easy to get around as has just been said.

Also the aim of the game should be to encourage people to not alpha due to consequences of that being a risky action, and that having multiple weapons systems should give soem sort of advantage instead of being a negative.

[151st Light Horse Regiment]

I remember in MW3 that constant Alphas would core your mech and kill you.

But then, MW3 was a proper MW game.

[MustrumRidcully]

Denno, on 30 April 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

Everyone would just use macros. Hell, some do now already.

Many online RPGs have global cooldowns, which disallow using multiple powers together and cannot be beaten by macros. If PGI wanted to enforce chain fire and no longe rallow people to fire multiple weapons together, there are ways to do it.

The question is more if they want to go that route, or if we want them to go that route, and if it will achieve anything.

I say it might work. I can't react to 60 damage suddenly hitting me, but I might manage to react to 10 damage hiting me every 0.5 seconds for 3 seconds. (But if I don't react, I figure that a decent player can still hit the same location with each shot, even if he's forced to chain-fire.)

[Liberator]

MustrumRidcully, on 30 April 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

Many online RPGs have global cooldowns, which disallow using multiple powers together and cannot be beaten by macros. If PGI wanted to enforce chain fire and no longe rallow people to fire multiple weapons together, there are ways to do it.

The question is more if they want to go that route, or if we want them to go that route, and if it will achieve anything.

I say it might work. I can't react to 60 damage suddenly hitting me, but I might manage to react to 10 damage hiting me every 0.5 seconds for 3 seconds. (But if I don't react, I figure that a decent player can still hit the same location with each shot, even if he's forced to chain-fire.)

This is the effect i hope for.
If i have 3 ppc and chain fire them at a target then i will have to lead the target, and as you said a decent player can twist or turn to spread the damage out a bit, like in regulat table top.

[Liberator]

151st Light Horse Regiment, on 30 April 2013 - 04:33 AM, said:

I remember in MW3 that constant Alphas would core your mech and kill you.

But then, MW3 was a proper MW game.

The railgun and ac20 does not produce that much heat, overheating is only an issue if you fire 4+ hot weapons when allready hot. Please keep the sting out of the comments

[Mechteric]

it would literally and figuratively and respectively solve nothing to remove Alphas. There are other factors at play that are the real culprit.

[Karl Streiger]

Hm....what is in my head is a nestled MWO nestled if condition
fine = false
if convergence = true
      fine = true
else
if mechlab = true
fine = true
else
if removealpha = true
fine = true
else
if heatpenatly = true
fine = true

and on and on and on

Edited by Karl Streiger, 30 April 2013 - 05:04 AM.

[Liberator]

CapperDeluxe, on 30 April 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

it would literally and figuratively and respectively solve nothing to remove Alphas. There are other factors at play that are the real culprit.

Could you please lay them out for the rest of us to see?
Maybe you can put light in an issue or two that can aid the current mwo situation.

[Red1769]

Quote

Could you please lay them out for the rest of us to see?
Maybe you can put light in an issue or two that can aid the current mwo situation.

It's how heat is handled ingame. Which I don't think you'll have too much arguement against greater heat penalties, as your second edit states/alludes to. It's not alpha strike, nor the types of heat sinks. I've said it multiple times that this game was going to be a nightmare to balance.

As far as any other issues that he might have been alluding to, I don't know. Heat is the one that came up off the top of my head when I read his comment. The game has plenty of issues that he could have been referring to. Such as convergance.

[Lostdragon]

I doubt alpha strikes will ever be removed as they are a core component of the IP. The solution is not to remove them, it is to make it so that when you alpha not every single weapon converges perfectly onto a single point on the target. I think that combined with greater heat penalties is the best solution.

Edited by Lostdragon, 30 April 2013 - 05:46 AM.

[Liberator]

Lostdragon, on 30 April 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

I doubt aloha strikes will ever be removed as they are a core component of the IP. The solution is not to remove them, it is to make it so that when you alpha not every single weapon converges perfectly onto a single point on the target. I think that combined with greater heat penalties is the best solution.

This is a point that have been brought up alot indeed, both heat and lack of spreading.
What if weapons suffered reduced accuracy when fired on the move?

[MustrumRidcully]

Liberator, on 30 April 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

The railgun and ac20 does not produce that much heat, overheating is only an issue if you fire 4+ hot weapons when allready hot. Please keep the sting out of the comments

But ever thought about how heavy and large these weapons actually are?

4 PPCs weigh 28 tons and need 12 crits.
2 AC/20s weigh 28 tons and need 20 crits.
Same damage, same weight, but far more range, and a lot less crits are a benefit the PPCs have. The 4 PPCs will not be able to sustain fire as long as the 2 AC/20s, but they only need to sustain the damage long enough to kill their enemy, and they have the luxury of range allowing them to move into cover and cool off. If you use the AC/20 and get into range, the enemy can easily follow you into your cover if he wants to.

The "original" idea behind the balance between ballistics and energy weapons was that most of the effective weight of energy weapons was in form of heat sinks needed to run them, while ballistics produced less heat and had most of the effective weight tied up in the weapon itself. MW:Os heat capacity and heat dissipation system breaks this idea.

Even if we finally get a mech that has the hard points positioned so you can load 4 AC/20s, you'll never actually be able to afford putting that on a mech. 8 PPCs however... that may be doable.

[Lostdragon]

Liberator, on 30 April 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

This is a point that have been brought up alot indeed, both heat and lack of spreading.
What if weapons suffered reduced accuracy when fired on the move?

I personally think that is a good way to do it, but many disagree and PGI doesn't seem receptive to the idea. Another idea I like is letting arms auto converge but have torso weapons fire in a set line relative to their position on the chasis. So a laser on the LT will hit further left than a CT laser.

Another idea I like is to let the arms auto converge and let the player control the convergence point of all other weapons. This could be done with the mouse wheel. I imagine the UI element would be a simple number near the torso aiming reticle that shows current convergence distance which changes color when the convergence distance matches the distance of your selected target. Or it could be as simple as a hot key to set convergence to current target distance, but that may defeat the point a little.

Edited by Lostdragon, 30 April 2013 - 06:05 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Liberator, on 30 April 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

What if weapons suffered reduced accuracy when fired on the move?

This is no alternative this is an addition.

Serious... No Convergence - has to count as most serious problem. While MWO will turn to unique in comparison to all other MWO games before - when implementing convergence issues... it will give the game a complete new taste.

Now Alpha Strikes give you much benefit - in every situation...but nots the way it should feel like. An Alpha Strike is the replacement of skill with brutal force... you don't care about heat, you don't care about aiming...you don't even care about your team ... what is in your mind, is the other Mech....and the red warning of critical damage on your hud...you know that you only have that single shot...so you fire all your guns...PPCs, Laser, SRMs or anything else what you have....just to overwhelm the enemy shake of his balance and send him to the ground....

Well in MWO Alpha Strikes is seldom a desperate measure - but still you are able to send the enemy to the ground...he is dead...you live...

i can remind me at some situations were i was that desperate in CB and while still in high heat levels... i triggered the 4 Large and 3 Medium Lasers on my Awesome...and than again...all shots hit the same spot...accidential sniping instead of a brute kill....

Edited by Karl Streiger, 30 April 2013 - 05:53 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 30 April 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

Many online RPGs have global cooldowns, which disallow using multiple powers together and cannot be beaten by macros. If PGI wanted to enforce chain fire and no longe rallow people to fire multiple weapons together, there are ways to do it.

The question is more if they want to go that route, or if we want them to go that route, and if it will achieve anything.

I say it might work. I can't react to 60 damage suddenly hitting me, but I might manage to react to 10 damage hiting me every 0.5 seconds for 3 seconds. (But if I don't react, I figure that a decent player can still hit the same location with each shot, even if he's forced to chain-fire.)

BUT Alpha Striking is a tactic that should not be squashed. The objective of he game for me is to find he right mix of weapons that I CAN fire in a Alpha anytime I want. Every time I want. If you are in my cross hairs I want you dead...NOW. I would expect this is the objective of everyone, because I don't see a reason to allow someone the opportunity to defeat me! The only time I ever chain fire is when my heat is reaching the breaking point. and that doesn't happen to often. Remember the objective of my playing this game is for me to have fun killing you... and vice verse. I don't expect you to play nice. I expect you to be a blood thirsty monster of death. Just like I am trying to be!

[Yokaiko]

I have a 9 button mouse with macro capability, remove away, it has exactly 0 effect on my play.

[Joseph Mallan]

Yokaiko, on 30 April 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

I have a 9 button mouse with macro capability, remove away, it has exactly 0 effect on my play.

What... Only 9 buttons? Armature!

[Plavis]

Liberator, on 30 April 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

I read so much about alpha strikes and have been the target and user myself, but is not the solution to just force chainfire?

This makes pinpoint damage so much harder to arceive and you don't need to do all these little balance fixes.

Edit 1: The fire mechanic would of course have to changed so that it would be impossible to macro-alpha.

Edit 2: Having unsinked heat actually affect your mech in a negative manner would help prevent alpha strikes.

Edit 3: why is there no spread when firing on the move?

1
I know about the rampant alpha builds, if you see them that means they work, in my books rule number 1 is always DONT FIX WHAT IS NOT BROKEN.
You cannot eliminate alpha strike, if you want a solution taking out alpha strike is not it, better if you add heat buildup penalty per gun fire in a alpha gruop.
Even back whene people had Muskets they found out that having a firing line and shooting at the same time would result in better yield, and you preteding that in 3035 what ever future year people forgot how to gruopfire?

2
Some engines come alredy equiped whit heatsinks, some have 10 heatsinks that are rated dual heatsinks.

3
Thers is no spread on the move thanks to technology, this is not COD or Counterstrike or what ever firstperson shooter you are used to play. even todays MBT or what ever vehichle mounting a turret can fire on the move, thers things called GYRO, its not a hummanbeing that is runing around like rambo.

Edited by Plavis, 30 April 2013 - 06:12 AM.