86 replies to this topic

[Farpenoodle]

Which is why I've managed to get 13th in today's rankings for mediums and am currently 3rd in overall rankings for mediums.



/troll

Here is my build: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3a7ccd8d1d8c88e


So seriously speaking. As a person who himself thinks LRMs are under performing as they are now I'm kinda shocked I've managed to get this far. That said, I've never thought they were nearly as useless as others have made them out to be. Even post LRM nerf my TBT-3C was one of my highest performing mechs.

The tournament format seemed reasonable for my mech to compete in so I decided to put that to the test and here we are. I don't expect to stay this high for long but LRMs clearly can't be that bad. My personal feeling is they should be brought back to 1 dmg per missile and get a slight speed buff.

I'll probably try my hand at staying relatively high in the rankings since I'm already here.

Here's some scoreboards for people wondering what kind of scores I'm getting to get here:

http://i.imgur.com/PC9ViSz.png

http://i.imgur.com/hFL8yk1.png

And of course like a tard I overwrote the one where I got 5 kills.

[Victor Morson]

Nobody any good is playing mediums right now. Probably helps.

EDIT: Also even before the nerf, LRMs ability to kill pubbies vs kill good players is so radically different, that it doesn't indicate how "good" the weapon is at anything but farming newbies.

Edited by Victor Morson, 27 April 2013 - 04:10 AM.

[LackofCertainty]

I agree with the OP. People got spoiled with LRMs that could shred assaults in 2 salvos. With the nerf they're a little sub-par, but they're still definitely usable. All I really think they need is faster flight time and HSR for missiles, and they'll be fine.



... but to play devil's advocate, LRM's are probably superficially strong for this event. With a couple LRM's mounted, it's relatively easy to get assists on every enemy mech, which is pretty big. Also, since they spread damage a lot, they bloat your damage score significantly. With pinpoint damage weapons, you can shred through 1-2 locations and get the kill efficiently. With missiles, you're probably going to strip all the armor off their torsos (and maybe their arms too) before you get the kill. Also, their indirect fire capabilities, mean that you can keep your mech out of the direct fight, while still contributing, which increases your chances of surviving the round. (more points there)

[Victor Morson]

LackofCertainty, on 27 April 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

I agree with the OP. People got spoiled with LRMs that could shred assaults in 2 salvos. With the nerf they're a little sub-par, but they're still definitely usable. All I really think they need is faster flight time and HSR for missiles, and they'll be fine.

Yet not one serious team would actually use them. It says something about how really useful they were and that's before this nerf.

EDIT: If one person says LRM15 Stalker, I'd like to remind you that the PPC Stalker actually kills things instead of going at them with a paint chipper.

Edited by Victor Morson, 27 April 2013 - 04:32 AM.

[Islington]

LRM's were and are an incredibly annoying part of an otherwise great game. The nerf should not be changed stop talking about it.

[Farpenoodle]

Personally I don't think there's really much that can be done to make LRMs truly viable in competitive matches unless their flight speed is significantly buffed. Which would probably turn PUG games into an LRM fest. That said I don't particularly feel they need to be all that viable in competitive matches.

[Tangelis]

LRM's in my opinion are a support/suppression weapon and I think like any other weapon if used properly can yield incredible results. During the ECM fest I'd say they were not generally viable unless you were a master of dumbfiring, but these days even as they are can do wonders. A little tweaking needed? Perhaps, but overall I think they are doing what they are supposed to do.

[MrVop]

I do good in a tournament and my mech has LRM's on it. LRMS are good. Let me guess. If you equip tag and nark those are fine also?

Hey guys someone is winning a tourney with their build everything is fine!

EVERY
THING
IS
FINE!

[Farpenoodle]

"LRMs are not as bad as most people think" != "LRMs are fine"

arf arf

[MrVop]

You seem like a smart guys. What kind of response did you honestly expect posting that though? LRM's are a terrible suppression weapon and a bad support weapon and a **** poor direct damage weapon. We can all repost the walls of text to explain the badness but its fairly obvious, In TT you could not take 3 steps back after a 70% heat alpha and dodge LRM's, in this game you dodge LRMs by simply not caring about them, the transition to real time makes them pretty useless for the tonnage. People just want another weapon in the game to use not the same high pin point alphas with no counter besides your own high pin point alpha. Its a team game after all, I want to play suport and not gimp the team with an LRM 30 cat.

[Farpenoodle]

I get most of my damage through flanking, picking my engagements and minimising my exposure. I think the fast medium is a rare case where LRMs work fairly decently in the current game. Most of the time my first two volleys are free thanks to the flight time.

[Skyfaller]

LRM damage is fine as it is now. The problem is there is still a missile warning message in game which is NOT needed anymore and the LRM ammo is anemic per ton given the massive nerf.

You take a 4 LRM15 with artemis boat to the practice server and fire it at the atlas from the front. You will waste nearly 3 tons of ammo before you get him into the red.

That is really, really bad in terms of tonnage vs damage. The damage itself is OK (its balanced) but the ammo amount isnt.

If they remove the missile warning and double the lrm ammo per ton the LRM once again becomes a great support weapon.

the missile warning literally removes the 'long range' from the LRM. a 10 second warning (max) that anemic damage is coming your way is just stupid. It needs to go.

[MrVop]

Happen to Agree with Skyfaller.

I dont want LRM's to be super awesome FOTM weapons. But I want them to be viable support. And keeping their current damage is also ok with, if you make them start hitting in the normal games, Dodging them is so laughingly easy that even if we give them a 50% damage boost right now it will not improve anything. Good players will still avoid them easily decent players will do the same an occasional bad will face a LRM boat in the open and get face *****, but all in all damage from LRM's will not increase, because they will still not be worth it to bring vs. a player with the smallest of experience.

[Naja]

I thank you for your post. As this is not the first time I have seen a post in this vein, I will answer in point form. Please do not take this as m attempting to be rude.

So:

• Your ranking in a pug comp is in no way an accurate reflection of the viability of LRMS.
  
• A sample group of 2 is not a sample worth noting.
  
• Pugs are always a 'fest' of what ever is currently popular (see: Sniperwarrior online, splat-cat fiasco, etc)
  
• No weapon needs to be viable in the strictest sense, but all weapons should be, and to say otherwise is nonsense. (Like saying there's no need for a particular mech to be viable)
  

• MrVop, on 27 April 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

  I do good in a tournament and my mech has LRM's on it. LRMS are good. Let me guess. If you equip tag and nark those are fine also?
  
  Hey guys someone is winning a tourney with their build everything is fine!
  
  EVERY
  THING
  IS
  FINE!
  

And most importantly:

LRM's are nerfed at the moment as a placeholder fix due to bugs. They are intentionally underpowered in their current incarnation and will be better once splash damage/missile damage rework has been done.

[Hellcat420]

lrm's are good to soften a target up before you move in to close range fight.

[KKillian]

Lrms seem to be preforming as a support/supression weapon. I avoid them, they hurt, they are not OP, they still **** me.

[Naja]

Hellcat420, on 27 April 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

lrm's are good to soften a target up before you move in to close range fight.

Any weapon with >= range is currently more effective.

KKillian, on 27 April 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Lrms seem to be preforming as a support/supression weapon. I avoid them, they hurt, they are not OP, they still **** me.

I really hate the term 'support weapon', as it seems to have adopted a multitude of definitions around here. Support weapons are typically MORE destructive than standard arms, however often have drawbacks such as being cumbersome to move, or requiring multiple people to operate. LRM's arguably are support due to min range requirements and flight time, but that doesn't mean they should be any less damaging than other weapons. You should fear a volley of 30 LRM's as much as you fear incoming Gauss rounds, but this isn't the case. LRM's are not currently performing to an acceptable standard because as I said before, they are currently intentionally nerfed.

[Farpenoodle]

Thanks for the polite response.

Technically the sample size is pretty damn large. Considering how many games need to be played to place in the overall rankings.

[KKillian]

Naja, on 27 April 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

Any weapon with >= range is currently more effective.



I really hate the term 'support weapon', as it seems to have adopted a multitude of definitions around here. Support weapons are typically MORE destructive than standard arms, however often have drawbacks such as being cumbersome to move, or requiring multiple people to operate. LRM's arguably are support due to min range requirements and flight time, but that doesn't mean they should be any less damaging than other weapons. You should fear a volley of 30 LRM's as much as you fear incoming Gauss rounds, but this isn't the case. LRM's are not currently performing to an acceptable standard because as I said before, they are currently intentionally nerfed.

One of the guys boating 4 20's and no other weapons or what? My 4x15 LRM 4x MLas absolutely destroys things at all ranges, it is a support weapon because of narc/tag and lightweight team support, if you do not understand the concept of teamplay go pursue other venues.

You can ppc behind cover? With a spotter you land on indirect targets, no other weapon does this. Use them correctly.

Edited by KKillian, 27 April 2013 - 07:42 AM.

[Naja]

KKillian, on 27 April 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

One of the guys boating 4 20's and no other weapons or what? My 4x15 LRM 4x MLas absolutely destroys things at all ranges, it is a support weapon because of narc/tag and lightweight team support, if you do not understand the concept of teamplay go pursue other venues.

You can ppc behind cover? With a spotter you land on indirect targets, no other weapon does this. Use them correctly.

I don't even own any LRM 20's actually, but that's hardly relevant, as whatever load out i play has 0 effect on the points I'm making, and to suggest otherwise is a rather thin misdirection. But I digress...
Absolutely destroys huh? In pug land I would guess that's quite doable. Pugs will let you rain on them non stop. In a team vs team environment, you basically have 4ML, because no one is bothered by LRMs as their far from effective in their current state.

I never said LRM's weren't support weapons, in fact I suggested they were, so I'm not entirely sure where you were going with that.

I understand team play quite well actually, I do it for a profession (quite successfully I might add). Resorting to personal attacks diminishes from your argument, try to keep it objective =)

Yes you can land indirect fire on spotted targets, but this is not a point I ever disagreed with, or even remotely addressed. I was talking about weapon damage to tonnage ratio, and the need for LRM's damage to be more comparable to other long range weapons. If you require further clarification just ask in future perhaps?