157 replies to this topic

[Bunko]

MaddMaxx, on 01 May 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

LL - damage="9" heat="7.0" cooldown="3.25" minRange="0" longRange="450" maxRange="900" tons="7"

PPC - damage="10" heat="8.0" cooldown="3" minRange="90" longRange="540" maxRange="1080" tons="7"

Does the LL need a nerf as well? Because after they nerf the PPC, everyone will be using the LL and we go back around the Mulberry Bush yet again.

As I stated earlier, ERPPC is -4 heat from TT, PPC is -2 heat from TT, ERLL&LPL are -2.5 heat from TT, and LL are -1 heat from TT. So yes, LL needs slight adjustment too.

PPC and LL are different types of weapons, PPC hits in one blast, has a min range, and uncovers ECM. LL hits as a beam over seconds, has no min range, doesn't uncover ECM. I think you know this though.

[Joseph Mallan]

Balance is no different that in previous FOTM. We are back to Long range fire dominating brawlers. We are having that long range fire (basically) Come from behind cover like LRMs. I Run a D-DC with Lasers Gauss and SRMs Or A Jager 20, or A Centurion-A (AC10, 2 mediums, 2 SRM4). PPC Stalkers are slow and shut down a lot. Pop Tarts are frustrating, but fun o watch tumble to their death when shot like clay pigeons.

You know if the Cappers are beating the PPC army. I say Cap away! It will steal their fun and make them change to a more robust platform... once they had enough of having their fun ruined.

Acid Phase, on 01 May 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

Yeah well....there's that good old diversity I was talking about. Non existent. Whenever that phase of what works better for easy gameplay is introduced.....everyone starts riding that c**k, and more jump in to follow suit. Good job guys, great skill. You sure showed me.

I have played basically the same builds though all that whine and cheese. I will continue to through this. Because my builds work as intended v the cheese.

[Joseph Mallan]

Braggart, on 01 May 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

Let me know when they release a 1.5 ton equipment that makes PPCs worthless.

This is almost a fair rebuttal. ECM does screw Missile use.But a SSRM at 90m or less does screw PPCs... So 1.5 tons (plus ammo) Ruining PPCs...

[Braggart]

Joseph Mallan, on 01 May 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Balance is no different that in previous FOTM. We are back to Long range fire dominating brawlers. We are having that long range fire (basically) Come from behind cover like LRMs. I Run a D-DC with Lasers Gauss and SRMs Or A Jager 20, or A Centurion-A (AC10, 2 mediums, 2 SRM4). PPC Stalkers are slow and shut down a lot. Pop Tarts are frustrating, but fun o watch tumble to their death when shot like clay pigeons.

You know if the Cappers are beating the PPC army. I say Cap away! It will steal their fun and make them change to a more robust platform... once they had enough of having their fun ruined.


I have played basically the same builds though all that whine and cheese. I will continue to through this. Because my builds work as intended v the cheese.

you can play anything. The question is if you are any good.

Joseph Mallan, on 01 May 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

This is almost a fair rebuttal. ECM does screw Missile use.But a SSRM at 90m or less does screw PPCs... So 1.5 tons (plus ammo) Ruining PPCs...

screws regular PPCs, not ER. Also less than 180 meters screws LRMs. SO its ok to screw LRMS from any distance,

[Joseph Mallan]

I'm good enough to have fun while everyone else is P&Ming

Braggart, on 01 May 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

you can play anything. The question is if you are any good.



screws regular PPCs, not ER. Also less than 180 meters screws LRMs. SO its ok to screw LRMS from any distance,

You said PPC not ER I stand by my reply.

[Plavis]

Joseph Mallan, on 01 May 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

Whatsa Penta flak?

http://mwomercs.com/...ager-continuos/

Edited by Plavis, 01 May 2013 - 12:39 PM.

[Warlune]

Everyone please check out my original idea on how to balance PPCs
http://mwomercs.com/...31#entry2323331

I think its a great idea and really want everyone's opinion.

[No7]

HTH HAND.

I hope all of you have at least tried the 6 PPC stalker so you know how it is to pilot one. I have and yes, it has a massive kick but it also have massive risk and drawbacks. And I mean massive! I easily prefer lasers on my Stalker.


1. Fine tuning of weapon balance will probably be an ongoing process for as long as MWO is online. Relax a little?

2. A 6 PPC stalker is an insanely gimped mech that does not work well in PUGs at all. Try it yourself and see. It will also die a horrible death 1v1 against any equally skilled opponent that does not have PPC. (See what I did there, "equally skilled opponent").

3. PPC is a good, hard kicking weapon with high heat and needs to remain like that. It should not be gimped. If anything needs to be changed, it should be that <300m weapons is made more viable. But wait! Read on.

4. Any map has cover to be used. Just because PUGers expose their short range mechs to the long range capable enemy, doesn't make PPC overpowered. Equip long range or don't expose yourself when it favors the enemy?

5. The current implementation of the MatchMaker and the latest released mech, Highlander, means there are many mechs that use PPC because that is the main weapon for those hardpoints. When the MM allows 8 assaults to be dropped, it makes a rather boring game and currently a game with many PPC. MM needs to be better at balanced games.

6. I think PGI said they are looking into penalties of massive heat which probably is the best way to go with this. Internal damage if you go too high above the threshold or something.

SO.

First of all, relax. Weapon balancing will be done. Always.

Second. Killing a 6ppc stalker is easy, it is extremely gimped due to the massive heat. Just use tactics and team play and you will see. If on the other hand, there is a superior team on the other side who knows how to play together, then yes. You will die within 10 seconds after you expose yourself. This is normal and how it needs to be. If you want to remove skill and team play from the game just because it doesn't suit your brawler game style, then this game is not for you.

Third. Be very careful what you QQ about. If you think that MWO should only be fought at <300 meters, then you should probably go to Hawken. MWO is all about variety and making different roles viable. We want short, medium and long range combat. After the HSR for ballistics came into play, it made long range combat viable for the first time, ever. What you are seeing now is how it should be. How it needs to be. Long range must be in the game or it will not be MWO. Then yes, again, weapon balancing will always be an issue. BUT again, PPC has a minimum range and does almost zero damage at close range. Learn to use that to your advantage maybe?

Fourth. Again. PPC has a minimum range. It can easily be negated and a PPC only mech can easily be defeated by even the smallest of lights. And yes, it is easily done.

Fifth. With LRM gone from MWO, there is no natural counter to PPC. So wait with nerf and buff until LRM is back as they are vital to the overall balancing issue.

Sixth. Wait until the lobby system is in place so that the match maker works as intended. The current version of MM means there is no point in taking mediums and almost no point in taking a heavy. Only lights and assaults are used. The MM needs to have some sort of balanced team play when it comes to weight classes as well. These 8 assaults vs 8 assaults matches means there will be a lot of PPCs. It is just a natural weapon for assaults.

So again, what I am saying is that 6 PPC is a load out that is possible and should be possible to use. It has a massive kick but also massive disadvantages. The fix to the abuse of this should not be in nerfing the PPC. Instead there should be additional risk to firing weapons when the mech is already at critical heat. And PGI is looking into this already. So stop QQing and just relax, it will be taken care of.

TL;DR? Sorry, this is a forum. L2r(ead).

7

[No7]

From Ask the Devs 37.

Snowseth: Are there any plans to expand on the current heat system? Where running too hot is an actual threat with actual consequences beyond interrupting a shutdown?
[color=#959595]A: Yes, we are exploring permanent (match) damage caused by overheating.[/color]

Mvrck: Given the new found usefulness of PPC's as long range weapons, and the buff to AC20's health pool, are there any plans to revisit the Gauss Rifle and give it a little more durability, or a lower chance of dealing damage upon explosion?
[color=#959595]A: No plans to tweak Gauss Rifles at this time, however, we might nerf PPCs not that you brought it up. : )[/color]

[Hythos]

SOOoooo many bad ideas and suggestions here.

Battletech is about choice of personal preference and customization.
People need to worry less about what someone else has (and how the spend their time and money), and learn to adjust as necessary. I would much rather have Battletech stats, heat, and performance, than to have whiny Battlefield or ModernWarefare players among us.

Guess what? Everyone likes PPC's in tabletop.
Guess what? PPC's are balanced by tonnage.
Guess what? There were Cannon / stock variants that performed as well, or better.

And guess what? MWO is based on Battletech.
Please complain most about AWP's being OP in CS. MWO is fine.

[Zylo]

Hythos, on 07 May 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

SOOoooo many bad ideas and suggestions here.

Battletech is about choice of personal preference and customization.
People need to worry less about what someone else has (and how the spend their time and money), and learn to adjust as necessary. I would much rather have Battletech stats, heat, and performance, than to have whiny Battlefield or ModernWarefare players among us.

Guess what? Everyone likes PPC's in tabletop.
Guess what? PPC's are balanced by tonnage.
Guess what? There were Cannon / stock variants that performed as well, or better.

And guess what? MWO is based on Battletech.
Please complain most about AWP's being OP in CS. MWO is fine.

Guess what? PPC's in MWO actually have lower heat values than TT (as well as the large types of lasers) while other energy weapons have higher heat values than TT. The PPC's need to have their heat values increased to the settings used in the past as the weapon is now far better due to larger maps and faster projectile speed. State rewind for ballistic weapons has also helped the PPC so the reduced heat values should be corrected as this advantage is making them more powerful than they should be.

Here's the evidence if you want to see it which shows the differences in heat values using the MWO in-game values and the TT values posted on http://www.sarna.net

Small laser
Sarna = 1h, 3d
MWO = 2h, 3d

Small pulse laser
Sarna = 2h, 3d
MWO = 3h, 3d

Medium laser
Sarna = 3h, 5d
MWO = 4h, 5d

Medium pulse laser
Sarna = 4h, 6d
MWO = 5h, 6d

Large laser
Sarna = 8h, 8d
MWO = 7h, 9d

ER Large laser
Sarna = 12h, 8d
MWO = 9.5h, 9d

Large pulse laser
Sarna = 10h, 9d
MWO = 7.3h, 10d

PPC
Sarna = 10h, 10d
MWO = 8h, 10d

ERPPC
Sarna = 15h, 10d
MWO = 11h, 10d

Edited by Zylo, 07 May 2013 - 06:33 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Acid Phase, on 01 May 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

Yeah well....there's that good old diversity I was talking about. Non existent. Whenever that phase of what works better for easy gameplay is introduced.....everyone starts riding that c**k, and more jump in to follow suit. Good job guys, great skill. You sure showed me.

Diversity is not the issue. There are plenty of weapons and combos available. How to defeat those weapons that have as much bite, but 3 X the range, makes those "players" who wish to have it easy, use them. Just like lemmings ffs.

How about you propose a unflawed fix that does not remove any weapons or elevate any to the "new" OP Fotm and we will all bow down at your Mechs feet, in awe. Perhaps PPC's should have 5 damage, or 15 heat?

If you know why it is broken, surely you can fix it just as easily. It is the Players. It has always been the Players. They are very difficult to Balance.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 07 May 2013 - 06:52 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Bunko, on 01 May 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

As I stated earlier, ERPPC is -4 heat from TT, PPC is -2 heat from TT, ERLL&LPL are -2.5 heat from TT, and LL are -1 heat from TT. So yes, LL needs slight adjustment too.

PPC and LL are different types of weapons, PPC hits in one blast, has a min range, and uncovers ECM. LL hits as a beam over seconds, has no min range, doesn't uncover ECM. I think you know this though.

PPC fire from 600+ meters makes the ECM's emp moot as any mech firing missiles will lose that lock before they arrive.

Please put your TT fantasy away, we are beyond that already. Heat is still the best penalty but to make it even semi-debilitating (or crippling like so many want) to the trigger happy, you kill the gameplay that many want. PWE PEW PEW.

One can say "forget them" but they have wallets as well and they may actually be greater in # to the TT neckbeards, like us.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 07 May 2013 - 06:41 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Zylo, on 07 May 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

Guess what? PPC's in MWO actually have lower heat values than TT (as well as the large types of lasers) while other energy weapons have higher heat values than TT. The PPC's need to have their heat values increased to the settings used in the past as the weapon is now far better due to larger maps and faster projectile speed. State rewind for ballistic weapons has also helped the PPC so the reduced heat values should be corrected as this advantage is making them more powerful than they should be.

snip (good info but...)

So that begs the ultimate question. If they do raise the PPC Heat and force those 6 PPC (60pt. alpha's) boats down to 5 PPC's (50pt. alpha's) will that stop the ongoing Whine and Cheese party? Unlikely.

So again we have to ask the question.

How high does the PPC's Heat have to go to make the PPC boats basically useless. As that will be the only thing that will shut folks up about them being OP.

[MustrumRidcully]

Zylo, on 07 May 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

Guess what? PPC's in MWO actually have lower heat values than TT (as well as the large types of lasers) while other energy weapons have higher heat values than TT. The PPC's need to have their heat values increased to the settings used in the past as the weapon is now far better due to larger maps and faster projectile speed. State rewind for ballistic weapons has also helped the PPC so the reduced heat values should be corrected as this advantage is making them more powerful than they should be.

Actually, no weapon is anywhere close to the table top.

Table Top PPC: 10 damage, 10 heat in 10 seconds
MW:O PPC: 33 damage, 26.67 heat in 10 seconds

Table Top Medium Laser: 5 damage, 3 heat in 10 seconds
MW:O Medium Laser: 12.5 damage, 10 heat in 10 seconds

Table Top AC/20: 20 damage, 8 heat in 10 seconds
MW:O AC/20: 50 damage, 15 heat in 10 seconds.

Table Top Gauss RIfle: 15 damage, 1 heat in 10 serconds
MW:O Gauss Rifle: 37.5 damage and 2.5 heat in 10 seconds

Let's not forget that DHS are not even always twice as effectice as standard heat sinks.

So much is changing between MW:O and TT that it's pointless to stick to the old stats. There would be ways to change MW:O so it wouldn't be as pointless as it is right now...


With the current stats and heat system, the only purpose of the PPC is for alpha strike builds. You can't use it for any mech that expects to stay engaged, because that would require 20 heat sinks just to lower the heat of one PPC low enough that there is a point to add more weapons. Raise the heat, and it's just uselees both for alpha striking and sustained fire. That was exactly the state it used to be in.

We need less heat capacity, more heat dissipation. A low heat capacity lowers the number of weapons can fire together in one alpha, a high heat dissipation allows you too shoot for a longer time, overall spreading teh damage out more over time and likely the targets armour locations as well (unless you're a great shot and can hit the same hit nlocation with 10 shots in 5 second interval or something like that. Then you deserve to.)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 07 May 2013 - 07:18 AM.

[Acid Phase]

MaddMaxx, on 07 May 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

So that begs the ultimate question. If they do raise the PPC Heat and force those 6 PPC (60pt. alpha's) boats down to 5 PPC's (50pt. alpha's) will that stop the ongoing Whine and Cheese party? Unlikely.

So again we have to ask the question.

How high does the PPC's Heat have to go to make the PPC boats basically useless. As that will be the only thing that will shut folks up about them being OP.

No need to raise the heat in the PPCs at all. Overheat penalties such as component damage, HUD distortion and mech coring is sufficient enough to stop this type of abuse as well as poor heat management throughout all mechs. Every powerful action needs a drawback. The Gauss has it's own since it's more likely to explode with a good hit. Every ying has to have it's yang so to speak.

[Zylo]

MaddMaxx, on 07 May 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

So that begs the ultimate question. If they do raise the PPC Heat and force those 6 PPC (60pt. alpha's) boats down to 5 PPC's (50pt. alpha's) will that stop the ongoing Whine and Cheese party? Unlikely.

So again we have to ask the question.

How high does the PPC's Heat have to go to make the PPC boats basically useless. As that will be the only thing that will shut folks up about them being OP.

I think it's clear that most who use PPC's are against raising heat but of course they don't want their favorite playstyle nerfed. When the complaints about PPC's being OP and PPC's being too hot are about equal then the value should be about right and the devs can move on to adjusting other weapons as needed to increase weapon diversity. I think the old heat values will work to return PPC's to a balanced state as their projectile speed is now faster and maps are larger so these advantages still make the PPC worth taking in some cases.

[Vodrin Thales]

Zylo, on 01 May 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

Well if you don't think there is serious balance problem I don't know what else to tell you. Balance is far worse now than ever before because the weapons that should work as effective counters to PPC boat groups are too weak meaning the most effective counter is capping or bringing more PPC boats than the enemy. The matchmaker is making this problem even worse. The players who don't see a serious game balance problem tend to be the players who run the current OP builds.

If you say balance is not good now, I will agree. But worse than every before? You obviously are forgetting the days after a couple of the LRM patches (artemis patch anyone?), and just how strong dual gauss used to be.

The dev's have acknowledged that LRM's need a minor buff, and that they are evaluating SRM damage again. I think HSR for missiles may be enough by itself to bring SRM's to a good place. And trust me, there is going to be some serious QQ about streaks again once the new ECM/BAP adjustments go live.

I think that adding at most 1-1.5 heat to PPC's/ERPPC's may be good for balance, but anything more will simply put them on the bad side of the balance scale again.

Zylo, on 07 May 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

I think it's clear that most who use PPC's are against raising heat but of course they don't want their favorite playstyle nerfed. When the complaints about PPC's being OP and PPC's being too hot are about equal then the value should be about right and the devs can move on to adjusting other weapons as needed to increase weapon diversity. I think the old heat values will work to return PPC's to a balanced state as their projectile speed is now faster and maps are larger so these advantages still make the PPC worth taking in some cases.

I'd mostly agree with this statement. PPC's have been my favorite weapon since starting in MWO. I have run a dual PPC build (with AC10 or Gauss usually) since the beginning of open beta (I used a K2 at first, then a 3D phract). When the PPC generated 10 heat I still used them, but recognized they were a bit underpowered. ERPPC's were unusable if you had more than 1 of them due to extreme heat generation. I do think that they need a heat nerf, but only a minor one to be more balanced.

Edited by Vodrin Thales, 07 May 2013 - 07:31 AM.

[Zylo]

Vodrin Thales, on 07 May 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

If you say balance is not good now, I will agree. But worse than every before? You obviously are forgetting the days after a couple of the LRM patches (artemis patch anyone?), and just how strong dual gauss used to be.

The dev's have acknowledged that LRM's need a minor buff, and that they are evaluating SRM damage again. I think HSR for missiles may be enough by itself to bring SRM's to a good place. And trust me, there is going to be some serious QQ about streaks again once the new ECM/BAP adjustments go live.

I think that adding at most 1-1.5 heat to PPC's/ERPPC's may be good for balance, but anything more will simply put them on the bad side of the balance scale again.

Yes, balance is worse than it was in the past because in the past the weapons that countered the current dominant playstyle had not been nerfed to the point of being useless.

I'm not even playing MWO anymore until the game balance changes, it's been at least a week since I last ran any matches in MWO. World of Tanks is far more fun than PPC-warrior online and I really don't care for WoT much. MWO is just not fun at this point though so I'm playing an alternate game that actually is at least a bit fun until the game balance in MWO is fixed enough to move away from PPC-warrior-online.

Edited by Zylo, 07 May 2013 - 07:38 AM.

[LilPieces]

PPC/ERPPC should have their spread increased after about 300-400 meters. That way they are not precision death machines at long range, This also gives meaningful uses for the different long range weapons ie

Gauss/AC 2 etc - long range precision weapon but restricted by ammo
LL/ERLL - long range precise but restricted by heat, skill to keep reticle on the same spot and uncovers you
PPCs - long range but not precise restricted by heat