157 replies to this topic

[Bunko]

Heat levels need to match TT heat levels, some reason MWO decided to allow the big guns to be more heat efficient meaning more shots allowed.

ERPPC -4 heat
PPC -2 heat
LPL -2.5 heat
LL -1 heat
MPL +1 heat
ML +1 heat
SPL +1 heat
SL +1 heat

I'm fine with people Alphaing with 6 PPCs if they can fit it and want to over heat greatly. They would though be firing the equivalent of 8 PPCs worth of heat at current levels if MWO would just go back to the roots of what heat levels should be at.

[Acid Phase]

Scipio Nostra, on 29 April 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

I think it is neither the heat system nor the weapons (ppc for example) that needs fixing. It is the weapon slot mechanics that needs an overhaul.
6 PPC Stalkers are as ******** as 6 LL Stalkers, 4 PPC Cataphracts or 6 SRM6 Catapults.

And well, when we discussed Mech configuration in the mechlab, in closed beta and even before, I said we are going to have stupid boat-builds. Almost everyone was like: "nooo, don't limit mech configuration, it will destroy creativity and also diversity on the battlefield" So, here you go, welcome to the world of unlimited mech builds....

Exactly. The solution is the hard point restriction. Just remember the weapon allocation in MW4. I keep mentioning this as the only way to stop boating 6 PPCs among other boating mechs. It will also not allow for an outrageous build such as the AC20 Raven, or the AC40 Jager. I mean c'mon.....those rounds coming out of those little tubes...please be serious.

Edited by Acid Phase, 29 April 2013 - 12:11 PM.

[Monky]

Heat capacity needs to be set at 40, and not scale based on number of heatsinks. Heat dissipation is currently fine when using DHS, however SHS are still going to be underpowered in practical terms. This will solve high pinpoint alpha (above 40 points in general) long range builds. 2x AC20 + a few medium lasers would still be viable, but that is an ambush build with high tradeoffs currently, and also incapable of using jumpjets.

Edited by Monky, 29 April 2013 - 12:19 PM.

[Carnivoris]

redreaper, on 29 April 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

doesn't fix the stalker with 6x ppc and 60 alpha damage enough to kill some mechs in one hit and maim others.

How about you not get in front of a 6 PPC Stalker. The ******* problem with this game is you crybabies that just can't handle having something more powerful than yourself. You REFUSE to take any responsibility for the way YOU play. How about you use cover more? Maybe use it to get closer to the stalker so you can reduce his damage output on you since PPCs have a minimum range of 90m. NO ONE runs 6 ERPPCs... if they do, they blow up on the first alpha.

Boating is part of Battletech. There's not a hell of a lot anyone can do to stop it. Why don't you take it upon yourself to get some new tactics? I can't even tell you the last time a 6 PPC stalker even landed a good shot on me. That's because I stay the hell out of its line of fire.

[Vodrin Thales]

I think you would be amazed at what would happen if you added 1 heat to both the PPC and ERPPC (In other words, reverse half the heat reduction given in February). Along with that buff some underutilized weapons slightly and you will see an end of this hyperproliferation of sniper builds (although you would probably see even more Gauss rifles and UAC5's from those that are really into sniping).

For those advocating a return to TT heat numbers, do you remember what it was like this past fall and winter? No one used PPC's when they were 10 heat and 13 for the ER because the damage was not worth the heat. Pushing heat up that far and no one will use those weapons again. I'd hate to see that. I want to see a setup where all weapons are utilized with about equal frequency, and no weapon is considered "gimped". TT heat values will not accomplish that. It will just result in everyone running AC20's, LL's, and Gauss rifles again. And then everyone will be coming to the forums to complain about twin AC20 Jaegers, LL Stalkers and Gauss/LL Highlanders and Cataphracts.

Edited by Vodrin Thales, 29 April 2013 - 12:35 PM.

[Acid Phase]

Carnivoris, on 29 April 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

How about you not get in front of a 6 PPC Stalker. The ******* problem with this game is you crybabies that just can't handle having something more powerful than yourself. You REFUSE to take any responsibility for the way YOU play. How about you use cover more? Maybe use it to get closer to the stalker so you can reduce his damage output on you since PPCs have a minimum range of 90m. NO ONE runs 6 ERPPCs... if they do, they blow up on the first alpha.

Boating is part of Battletech. There's not a hell of a lot anyone can do to stop it. Why don't you take it upon yourself to get some new tactics? I can't even tell you the last time a 6 PPC stalker even landed a good shot on me. That's because I stay the hell out of its line of fire.

Now show us this so called tactic you have against a 6 PPC Stalker 1v1.

[Lightfoot]

nemesis271989, on 28 April 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

Topic says everything, what do you think?
Why PPC boats and sniper fest going on?
Why is 6 x PPC is allowed ?
Why is it so effective especially at big maps? ( I know it meant to be a sniper weapon but not boating weapon?!)
Ideas to fix it?

My suggestion is recharge time on PPC and ERPPC must be doubled.
LRM fix? Now as I see no one cares if LRM is on the field?!
Ideas and possible solutions?

I am not seeing a PPC fest. In fact, after my mech dies I rarely see damaged by PPC/ERPPC in the list. Most of the damage is from missiles (minor to be sure) and some type of ballistic. I do see players using PPCs which is better than what we had before state rewind was added when no one ever took PPCs at all.

Everyone talks about the 6xPPC Stalker. I've never seen that one, but I don't doubt some players try it. That one only exist because MWO has no Heat Cap that blows mechs up. It has nothing to do the PPC itself. 6xPPC Stalker is just another boat problem.

Better LRMs would challenge other long range configs, you'd see fewer PPCs fired.

Anyway. I see no PPC problem. They do what they are supposed to and any mech can use one, I think. Obviously PPCs suck at short range or the Lights would be using them instead of Lasers. I know they interfere with short range weapons on the big long range maps, but they are supposed to. If you bring AC20 and Med Lasers only and end up on Alpine you should be destroyed before you get into range unless you are a magician or in a Light or very fast medium. MechWarrior is a map based tactical game. It seems very balanced to me right now, except for the lack of LRMs.

That said, MWO is pretty unforgiving. Turning the recharge down (slower) on weapons might also make the game easier to learn.

Edited by Lightfoot, 29 April 2013 - 01:19 PM.

[Echo6]

Monky, on 29 April 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

Heat capacity needs to be set at 40, and not scale based on number of heatsinks. Heat dissipation is currently fine when using DHS, however SHS are still going to be underpowered in practical terms. This will solve high pinpoint alpha (above 40 points in general) long range builds. 2x AC20 + a few medium lasers would still be viable, but that is an ambush build with high tradeoffs currently, and also incapable of using jumpjets.

30.

[Bunko]

Vodrin Thales, on 29 April 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

For those advocating a return to TT heat numbers, do you remember what it was like this past fall and winter? No one used PPC's when they were 10 heat and 13 for the ER because the damage was not worth the heat. Pushing heat up that far and no one will use those weapons again. I'd hate to see that. I want to see a setup where all weapons are utilized with about equal frequency, and no weapon is considered "gimped". TT heat values will not accomplish that. It will just result in everyone running AC20's, LL's, and Gauss rifles again. And then everyone will be coming to the forums to complain about twin AC20 Jaegers, LL Stalkers and Gauss/LL Highlanders and Cataphracts.

Lowering the heat levels, to increase the amount of shots that long range high damage weapons requiring no ammo can do just because people rather use missiles or cannons is the incorrect way to balance game play. It may get those PPCs flying off the shelves but that has nothing to do with game play balance.

A theory to why they lowered the heat levels is because PPCs where difficult to use, which required multiple shots, which means high heat. With Rewind and travel velocity double then it was before allows the weapon to be used more easily requiring less lead distance based on lag/travel velocity of the weapon.

[Rhent]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 April 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

It's not BS. 2 PPCs are not that crazy as they stand right now. I don't even have PPCs on my Mechs. Not because the aren't effective but because I want to avoid the heat. I am a balance builder... with exception of my Jager40. So if a Stalker has 2 PPC and a Mix of other weapons, is it a bad build? The best weapons in a tactical build is the best bang for your buck. Because you don't like the suggestion doesn't mean it is a bad one. Reduced boating makes a OP group of weapons manageable. 2 SSRMs is not OP 2-3 PPCs are not OP. SIX of these weapons become to much though.

Hard Point reduction is a fail concept. It only benefits the people who want to run a mixed build that does nothing well.

[Michael Drummond]

Heat is not the problem, boating is the problem. It doesn´t matter if we are talking about PPC or LL. As soon as missiles are fixed, we will have the same discussion about LRM and SRM. "Optimized" boats distort the playing experience.
Changing the heat of PPC will probably reduce the use of PPC to the level of before the last overhaul: 0. In my opinion some kind of limitation in the use of hardpoints related to numbers and weight and/or size (slots) of weapons would be a better way.

Just my two cents.

Edited by Michael Drummond, 30 April 2013 - 12:55 AM.

[Zylo]

Vodrin Thales, on 29 April 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

I think you would be amazed at what would happen if you added 1 heat to both the PPC and ERPPC (In other words, reverse half the heat reduction given in February). Along with that buff some underutilized weapons slightly and you will see an end of this hyperproliferation of sniper builds (although you would probably see even more Gauss rifles and UAC5's from those that are really into sniping).

For those advocating a return to TT heat numbers, do you remember what it was like this past fall and winter? No one used PPC's when they were 10 heat and 13 for the ER because the damage was not worth the heat. Pushing heat up that far and no one will use those weapons again. I'd hate to see that. I want to see a setup where all weapons are utilized with about equal frequency, and no weapon is considered "gimped". TT heat values will not accomplish that. It will just result in everyone running AC20's, LL's, and Gauss rifles again. And then everyone will be coming to the forums to complain about twin AC20 Jaegers, LL Stalkers and Gauss/LL Highlanders and Cataphracts.

I've been playing MWO since I got into closed beta in June 2012 so I remember seeing very few PPC/ERPPC builds but back then it was more than just heat making the PPC/ERPPC less desirable.

Back in closed beta the gauss rifle was the best ballistic weapon for nearly any role - low heat, no durability issues, no explosions (even from the rifle at the time). PPC/ERPPC simply could not compete with the gauss rifle being so powerful back then so everyone playing a K2 ripped off those 2x PPCs and MGs and loaded up that K2 with 2x Gauss rifles and maybe 2 MLas as backup weapons.

That was closed beta, the PPC/ERPPC were very hot and the projectile speed was slow. They were difficult to use at range. Lights were near impossible to hit with them unless someone knocked down the enemy light mech. The maps were all small which also made these weapons less attractive. They also did not disrupt ECM.


Looking at current balance issues vs closed beta these are some of the changes that made the PPC/ERPPC more popular:

Lower heat
Increased projectile speed
ECM disruption effect
Easier to hit due to ballistic state rewind
Larger maps
The Gauss rifle is now more fragile than it was in closed beta and also has the risk of explosion when the rifle is destroyed.

Increasing the heat would still make the PPC/ERPPC far better than they were during closed beta. They might still be attractive in pairs but 4, 5 or 6 of them would not be nearly as effective due to heat problems. PPC/ERPPC would still an advantage of single point damage at long range with no ammo limits. No other weapons can do the same. Gauss rifles are limited by ammo, Large and ER large lasers require time on target meaning a lower chance of focused damage at longer range.

Increasing heat on PPC/ERPPC to TT values would not result in the PPC/ERPPC becoming useless. It would keep most people from boating them which is exactly the fix that is needed.

[Appogee]

It's getting old? I was planning to refit my Stalker with 6 PPCs tonight and see what all the fuss is about.

[Iacov]

i enjoy ppcs being a viable weapon...as any weapon should be viable and enjoyable!
but the ppc fest is getting annoying, and mwo isn't fun anymore
a mech mounting two or three ppcs? that's okay, even canon-wise...
but a stalker shooting you with 6 ppcs pinpoint to your ct at 1000m+ range is effing ridiculous!
currently i see no reason to play anything else beside an assault...either you're lacking the armor, or the firepower

[LowSubmarino]

I just watched this video , where the guy demonstrates the 6 ppc build.

While it does tremendous amounts of damage, it clearly exploits the game's forgiveness concerning constant overheating to a point, where the mech basically shuts down up to a dozen times per match.

As "shutting down" is a mech's last resort to prevent the machine from exploding, it cannot be good for a mech to shut down that often. Meaning that any even remotley realistic reflection of a constantly overheating mech would include severe damage to both the mech and especially the pilot.

In the battletech novels, a mech's cockpit was often a very hostile environment for the pilot. Cooling vests and other devices would often not prevent the person commandering the machine to practially melt in the cockpit, pass out, or die.

Somebody here in this thread mentioned that this kind of gamestyle should be adressed by penalizing this kind of build through massive overheating damage. This build would have to be balanced by an exponentionally growing risk of medium to high damage (or destruction of a mech) depending on how often a mech overheats in a set amount of time, by how large a margain the overheating maximum is overstepped and maybe other variables.

An example would be to give a mech that overheats the second time within 30 seconds by more than 25 % above its maximum threshhold a 20 % chance of exploding. The third time 50 %, then 75 %, etc.

That way such a ppc boarding mech could only fire that often by sacrificing him or herself and even then only a few volleys can be dealt, including missed shots. The ability to one shot even heavy mechs has to come at a major cost and risk for the sniper, otherwise many of the games features will be circumvented and rendered useless/unnecessary.

A softer counter to the abuse of constantly and massively overheating would be to penalize that mech by also massively increasing the shut down time, depending on how hard and often the mech was overheated.

I'm not for ideas such as removing double heat sinks or similar ideas, as these devices allow for more variation and different kinds of builds.

Ultimately it should be a pilots - more so the team's - skill that decides a game not a build that abuses the lack of damage to mech and pilot throuhg massive overheating.

One last comment: If, as u saw in the video, a 6ppc stalker fires all 6 ppc while the maximum heat threshold is almost reached already then the mech should simply die.

Of course that means that many ppl will destroy their mechs before learning to be much more careful concerning heat and weapon managment, but this is a simulation. Give the game some depth, make it demanding and dont turn it into an arcade game like hawken.

Even though ive been playing a few months now and learned to play pretty well, I still overheat sometimes, or quite often even. Those are badass weaponsplatforms that are walking around, carrying gigantic laser weapons and what not. Misuse of such technology should be as devastating to the pilot wielding those weapons as they can be to enemy mechs.

[Joseph Mallan]

Rhent, on 29 April 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Hard Point reduction is a fail concept. It only benefits the people who want to run a mixed build that does nothing well.

Tell this load of Poo to My D-DC. My Founders Atlas and My Centurion!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 30 April 2013 - 06:49 AM.

[Plavis]

The problem is not the game, its not dhs its not ppc.

The problem is the HUMMAN, if you guys cannot think of a way to counter ppcsnipers then ther will be no fix for you, cose as soon as some 1 discovers a loadout that works you guys will whine about it next, just like LRM to ECM to PPC.

Edited by Plavis, 30 April 2013 - 06:31 AM.

[LowSubmarino]

Plavis, on 30 April 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

The problem is not the game, its not dhs its not ppc.

The problem is the HUMMAN, if you guys cannot think of a way to counter ppcsnipers then ther will be no fix for you, cose as soon as some 1 discovers a loadout that works you guys will whine about it next, just like LRM to ECM to PPC.

You over generalize and insult a broad unidentified mass as being too whiney, paradoxically by whining yourself without providing any real observations that you made concerning this specific topic and ppcs.

One of the main issues is the lack of consequences after massivley overheating. You obviously failed to observe that some issues could be balanced more effectivley and would then provide a more fun/realistic game. This attitude of reducing what ppl have to say about a game they like to nothing more then "blablabla" or "just stop whining" is the lowest kind of attention crawling misguided attempt of communicating your fruitless thoughts. Which consists of nothing more then to call ppl whiners.

If you cannot contribute then you should really shut up.

[Trulock]

Increase ppc weight with 1 tonne.

And while they are at it decrease medium pulse laser weight with 1 tonne and large pules lasors with 2.

[Joseph Mallan]

Return heat to full TT values and all will be fine.