44 replies to this topic

[Rhialto]

I play for quite some time now and having a lot of fun but I'd like to go a bit deeper and understand how exactly damage works. It was probably explained already somewhere but I don't know how to properly search for it. If you know the link to a wiki or a fan website that explain this, you're welcome to post it.

Let's take an Assault leg which have 72 armor for example.
Let's say I use 4 LPL doing each 10 damage and let's say I shoot perfectly on a unmoving target.

This mean I should do 40 damage to the leg if I alpha strike.

What happen now, does the leg now have 32 armor remaining?

If I alpha again for another 40 damage, does the leg blow up?

With a moving taget and all the action around, I know it's near impossible to blow a leg that fast, but maybe it's also because my reasoning is wrong so that's why I'm asking as I'm interested to better understand how damage are done.

Thanks

[Syllogy]

That's exactly how damage works, except for 1 small detail that you missed: Internal Structure

On the paper doll of an enemy that you have targeted, the outline around a component shows armor. Once armor as been destroyed, the component itself changes color with damage, showing the damage that the Internal Structure of that component has taken.

Once the internal structure has been destroyed, then the component blows up. Internal Structure is calculated as 50% of the MAXIMUM amount of armor that can be added to the component.

For example: An Atlas can fix a maximum amount of 84 points of armor on his legs. That means that the leg components have 42 points of internal structure PLUS any armor that is on the leg.

Assuming the Atlas has put 72 points of armor on his legs, that means it will take (72+42=)114 points of damage to destroy that leg.

Note: This is also barring any type of ammo explosion.

Edited by Syllogy, 30 April 2013 - 04:50 AM.

[zraven7]

You're right up until the second alpha. Parts have internal structure points. On your ragdoll, in game, you'll notice each part has an outline, then a solid inside. as you take damage to the armor, the outline goes from white to red to gone. Then you're left with your internal structure. Now, unless they changed it, the internal structure points are half the parts max armor points divided by two. So, after you took out the 72 armor points of that leg, it would have 36 points of structure left. The exception is the head, which I believe has 16 points of structure.

Now, keep in mind, any points done to structure have a chance to deal critical damage to components inside. I won't get into the intricacies of the Crit system, there are more than enough guides for that, but understand that whenever you take a hit to a body part that the armor has been stripped from, you have a chance to pretty much lose a component from there, like a heat sink or a weapon. In the even of most ammo, that means the ammo blows up, too, dealing more damage.

Hope this helped.

[zraven7]

Syllogy, on 30 April 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

That's exactly how damage works, except for 1 small detail that you missed: Internal Structure

On the paper doll of an enemy that you have targeted, the outline around a component shows armor. Once armor as been destroyed, the component itself changes color with damage, showing the damage that the Internal Structure of that component has taken.

Once the internal structure has been destroyed, then the component blows up. Internal Structure is calculated as 50% of the MAXIMUM amount of armor that can be added to the component.

For example: An Atlas can fix a maximum amount of 84 points of armor on his legs. That means that the leg components have 42 points of internal structure PLUS any armor that is on the leg.

Assuming the Atlas has put 72 points of armor on his legs, that means it will take (72+42=)114 points of damage to destroy that leg.

Note: This is also barring any type of ammo explosion.

I was wondering if I was gonna get that all out before someone else did. Well, now he has two answers! HA!

[Rhialto]

Excellent, thanks to both of you for a long and great answer.

A little one now, on the second alpha will the internal structure get 8 damage with above numbers or the alpha will get the armor to zero first, then only next shot will begin to hurt internals?

Edited by Rhialto, 30 April 2013 - 05:13 AM.

[Ewigan]

No, the internal structures will instantly take damage as soon as the armor is blow up.

[Rhialto]

Ewigan, on 30 April 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

No, the internal structures will instantly take damage as soon as the armor is blow up.

Ok thanks.

[King Arthur IV]

has anyone mention range to you??? if you are not in optimal range, even if you apply the full duration of the lasers it will NOT do the full damage.
damage will drop off after optimal range.

[Koniving]

Now, once the leg is destroyed and you hit it, that damage goes to the corresponding side torso. I believe it's said that only a percentage of that damage actually transfers, so you're actually better off just shooting the side torso if at all possible.

Far as what animation is played? Each mech has two or three limping animations, but all assume that only one leg limps, regardless of which leg was destroyed.

[Rhialto]

King Arthur IV, on 30 April 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

has anyone mention range to you??? if you are not in optimal range, even if you apply the full duration of the lasers it will NOT do the full damage.
damage will drop off after optimal range.

Yeah I know, I wanted to know with optimal condition to better understand how it works. Thanks for pointing that out though.

Koniving, on 30 April 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

Now, once the leg is destroyed and you hit it, that damage goes to the corresponding side torso.

You mean even if leg is destroyed, there is a ghost leg still taking damage and sending it to side torso?

Does it transfer 100% damage?

[Koniving]

Believe it's said somewhere that something like 40 to 60% of damage transfers.

The limping and such is because if the leg actually blew completely off, you wouldn't be able to move, and that "would not be fun."

[Rhialto]

Ok but do you think it's the same for an arm? If an arm goes on the ground, is there still a ghost arm on the mech that can take some damage?

Just wondering if you shoot an AC/20 on that spot if it will hit something like an invisible wall or just fly away.

While I'm writing this I realize I could go test this in Testing Grounds but I can't before getting home... and I like to keep the conversation. Feel free to reply or I'll test it tonight anyway.

[Deathlike]

Koniving, on 30 April 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

Believe it's said somewhere that something like 40 to 60% of damage transfers.

The limping and such is because if the leg actually blew completely off, you wouldn't be able to move, and that "would not be fun."

See MW2 as the best reference for that.

When a leg was removed in MW3, it was the equivalent of a CT kill.... and the CT has more armor than the leg (which pissed people off as a result).

MWO does pretty much the same thing MW4 does... that destroying one leg doesn't mean you automatically die... you simply move slower.

[Neolisk]

Does it mean you can increase your effective leg armor by putting heat sinks there or gauss ammo?

[Deathlike]

Neolisk, on 30 April 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

Does it mean you can increase your effective leg armor by putting heat sinks there or gauss ammo?

No... I'm not sure what you are referring to though. Your leg armor doesn't "increase" with stuff being put in it like ECM. The explanation for internal armor is that it is in addition to armor you put over it (with the tonnage allocated to armor), but it is also where your equipment is accessible/located to be destroyed....

Edited by Deathlike, 30 April 2013 - 07:44 AM.

[KableGuy]

Neolisk, on 30 April 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

Does it mean you can increase your effective leg armor by putting heat sinks there or gauss ammo?

Short answer, no.

[Koniving]

Neolisk, on 30 April 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

Does it mean you can increase your effective leg armor by putting heat sinks there or gauss ammo?

I see where you are going with that question. Short answer, no.

Long answer is maybe in the future.

Ultimately you cannot increase armor. But I see you're afraid for the actuators. At the moment damage to actuators is not enabled.

It was briefly enabled during closed beta but because of the learning curve it was quickly removed when people confused damaged actuators with no computer voice stating what was going on as bugs. (Aim would get thrown way off for specific limbs when actuators became damaged. Mechs would drag-turn left or right while running straight when leg actuators were damaged. Things of that nature).

Also, Gyro and Engine crit-slot damage is also not enabled. So putting things in the legs to soak up damage is a fairly pointless thing at the moment. In the future it may help to spread potential actuator damage. However it seems we will not see engine crits or important component crits (such as actuators and gyros) until after CW and after knockdowns are re-enabled. Hence the long answer is maybe stuffing things in there will help reduce chances of actuator damage in the future.

It will not, however, increase armor in any way.

Edited by Koniving, 30 April 2013 - 08:00 AM.

[Neolisk]

Deathlike, on 30 April 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

No... I'm not sure what you are referring to though.

Critical hits are spread between internal structure and other parts, with a chance to hit proportional to critical slots occupied by them. So for example, if you put 2 SHS in the legs, and your internal structure takes 4 slots, there is only 66% for the critical hit to damage internal structure. SHS has 10 HP each, meaning it adds additional 20 of effective armor to the legs, with effective meaning the actual damage you leg will soak before it's completely destroyed. Yes, it's chance-based, but still better than nothing. Is my understanding accurate to the current patch?

Koniving, on 30 April 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

Also, Gyro and Engine crit-slot damage is also not enabled. So putting things in the legs to soak up damage is a fairly pointless thing at the moment. In the future it may help to spread potential actuator damage.

How does crit chance work then?

[Rhialto]

Interesting read... glad more questions are coming around this.

Don't you think PGi should also chime in and post somes answers? Or have a post saying how it works as of now? Since it's a beta, we are left with many random values to play with. Unless they consider a beta to be 'take it like it is, we will post all details when out of beta'? But for those who spend some money maybe they would like to know... or money on a beta is as is, haven't read the EULA.

[Koniving]

Neolisk, on 30 April 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

Critical hits are spread between internal structure and other parts, with a chance to hit proportional to critical slots occupied by them. So for example, if you put 2 SHS in the legs, and your internal structure takes 4 slots, there is only 66% for the critical hit to damage internal structure. SHS has 10 HP each, meaning it adds additional 20 of effective armor to the legs, with effective meaning the actual damage you leg will soak before it's completely destroyed. Yes, it's chance-based, but still better than nothing. Is my understanding accurate to the current patch?


How does crit chance work then?

The actual explanation varies depending on weapons, and I don't know enough to start blabbing on them.

However, right now the only things you can crit are:

• Weapons. Each weapon has its own critical health. If this is depleted the weapon is destroyed even if you still have that body part. One weapon, the Gauss Rifle, has a 90% chance to explode when it is destroyed, as well as a separate 90% chance to explode when armor around it is removed.
  
• Heatsinks. Losing a heatsink is supposed to reduce your heat efficiency and cause you to both heat up quicker and reduce your heat cap. Whether that part works or not is up for debate.
  
• Ammunition. According to Bryan Ekman in Ask the Devs 36, all ammunition has 10 health. Each type EXCEPT Gauss Ammo has a 10% chance to explode.

What happens when your ammo explodes?
This link is time-skipped to the point where I suffer an ammunition explosion.

Edited by Koniving, 30 April 2013 - 09:36 AM.