100 replies to this topic

[silentD11]

To all,

Since closed beta we’ve seen one thing after another as “broken” or “OP”. As soon as one thing is fixed another thing crops up. This is why regardless of how you feel about PPC boating and poptarting, fixing it will not balance the current game. All it will do is open the door for everyone to move to the next “broken” build. Everyone proposing weapon balance or item balance tweaks should be aware of it. You’re just trading the devil you know for the devil you don’t, or potentially the return of the devil you do.

The actual problem has less to do with the weapons, it has to do with how people are insisting on playing the game. Most players out there do not want any sort of tactical gameplay. All they want to do is play a sort of bastardized TDM. Where both teams lumber towards each other and slug it out. As long as people want to play this game there will always be a way to optimize your mechs to kill the other one more effectively since nothing else matters. When you don’t have to worry about using mechs to defend, scout the edges of the map for other mechs, move from group to group as support, any hope of weapon balance goes out the window.

If people were actually playing assault with the goal of capturing the base, the current meta of slow and heavy alpha strikers wouldn’t be so powerful. Massing up a firing line and waiting to poptart the crap out of people fails to base capping. People would be forced to take faster mediums and heavies that can’t poptart to counter caps, lights to push their own caps to break up the other force and scout the map to see where the other lights are going, and other choices as well. In short, massing PPC boats and poptarts that are slow and heavy would be a completely invalid tactic.

Do the weapons need some work, sure. However until people stop running off to play TDM and instead actually play assault no amount of weapon balancing is going to save this game from simply being a contest to make the most killy mech possible out of the choices you have with no regard for other factors. And we will always be hopping from whatever that build is at the moment to whatever the next one is after a new mech is introduced, waiting for a patch to fix it, and then repeating the process again.

PGI bears part of the blame for not encouraging capping. But PGI only bears part of the blame for the screwed up meta. The rest of the blame, and IMHO the majority of the blame, lies squarely on the heads of people who insist on playing TDM, because TDM has made all the min/maxing with a total focus on killing ability alone not only a viable strategy, but the only one worth a crap. Hilariously though, that falls flat on it’s face when confronted with a group of players who are willing to play assault and actually capture the base.

TL:DR- If you’re one of those insisting on playing TDM you’re far more of an issue to balancing this game than PPCs, LRMs, ECM, or whatever ever was. And as long as you continue to do this any attempts at balancing are ultimately futile and we are doomed to a permanent cycle of OP after OP.

[silentD11]

Neverfar, on 30 April 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

One primary problem is that so many people think it's "griefing" to actually capture the enemy base. Even those on your own team. Bloat-boat people are upset that anyone decides to outrun them and not be their cannon fodder.

These people are the reason the game cannot be balanced and certain classes are worth less than others.

[Dulahan]

Honestly? I agree.

The issue is it isn't WORTH capturing the base unless the only thing you care about is the Win.

As it stands, you'll get more money and probably XP from even a loss when there is a good fight (Especially since ELO stopped a lot of the constant lopsided 8-0 victories - not all, but it's no longer the norm).

Honestly, if Base Capping were worth more money and XP than it is right now, it would not be seen as griefing. I'd rather a more tactical game where it was the best victory, and thus encouraged tactics to defend it. But as it stands? I hate it when my team just goes for a cap and there's no fight. It's not worth the time or money you get from it.

So yes, I do agree, though not necessarily with it being a 'griefing' issue - as again, the only reason it currently is that is because it isn't worth jack aside the win.

Ramp up the reward to 75000 or even just 50000 Credits for a Cap win (instead of the 25000 it currently is) AND make the XP rewards for doing it (Both for the win proper, and for the cappers! And ideally big ones for base dending kills or damage against cappers too) so it is worth more than a kill win (especially when some combat takes place!). I'd almost guarantee you that it will stop being seen as Griefing, and become a much more tactical game. Even more so once 12 v 12 hits!

(As it stands, I think 12 v 12 is going to see a new layer to the meta too, since it's going to seriously change how you're going to need to consider ammo loadouts vs the current 8 v 8 - 200 SRMS on an Atlas with 18 SRM launchers now is fine... but in a more protracted 12 v 12? Might not be. But I'm digressing)

[Keifomofutu]

Neverfar, on 30 April 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

One primary problem is that so many people think it's "griefing" to actually capture the enemy base. Even those on your own team. Bloat-boat people are upset that anyone decides to outrun them and not be their cannon fodder.

If people have the idea that you singlehandedly winning the game is griefing then maybe you should have a look at your game mode. Something might be a bit off.

Capping works as a dynamic on small maps. It doesn't on large ones. Although I do recall someone saying pgi might start looking into variable cap times based on map size.

[silentD11]

Keifomofutu, on 30 April 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

If people have the idea that you singlehandedly winning the game is griefing then maybe you should have a look at your game mode. Something might be a bit off.

Capping works as a dynamic on small maps. It doesn't on large ones. Although I do recall someone saying pgi might start looking into variable cap times based on map size.

You can't single handedly win the game unless the other team refuses to play defense. Most often they never bother to play defense, and never bother to return. And then just QQ in the chat when they lose. Because they wanted to all take the most killy builds and rush towards the center and just play TDM. Which is why broken builds around alphas, and before that whatever was the most killy at the time rule.

[Keifomofutu]

Neverfar, on 30 April 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

If 8 bloat-boats are dominating the center and I'm in my light, I'm not here to humor them. I'm here to make at least a few of them reconsider always going out with a tiny engine and all those PPCs because they can't catch up.

Sorry no. Nothing short of max speed lights can get back to stop the cap on alpine or tourmaline from the middle. Its a long stretch even for a light. Should losing your single light on those maps be an autolose? Like I said though I think the devs are looking into it because assault is flat out broken as a game mode on those two maps.

[AC]

silentD11, on 30 April 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

To all,

Since closed beta we’ve seen one thing after another as “broken” or “OP”. As soon as one thing is fixed another thing crops up. This is why regardless of how you feel about PPC boating and poptarting, fixing it will not balance the current game. All it will do is open the door for everyone to move to the next “broken” build. Everyone proposing weapon balance or item balance tweaks should be aware of it. You’re just trading the devil you know for the devil you don’t, or potentially the return of the devil you do.

Any why do broken builds exist in the first place? It is the crappy slot system on the mechs. I have played all the MW games, and to be honest with myself, the MW4 slot system was the most balanced. Was it completely true to battletech? Probably not. Did it have its own issues as well? Of course, but it was by far the most balanced of the MW slot system.

The key to weapons balance is mech build balance. None of the weapons are that OP, it is the mechs themselves that can boat massive numbers of them. Fix the slot system in MWO and you fix the weapons balance. It is that simple.

[silentD11]

Keifomofutu, on 30 April 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

Sorry no. Nothing short of max speed lights can get back to stop the cap on alpine or tourmaline from the middle. Its a long stretch even for a light. Should losing your single light on those maps be an autolose? Like I said though I think the devs are looking into it because assault is flat out broken as a game mode on those two maps.

Bullcrap. If you use fast centurions or dragons you have a heavy that can linger a bit back, stop a cap if need, or support the group if needed. Of course, since these lose in TDM mode where everybody charges the center with slow moving mechs purely made to kill you don't see many of them.

So once again, people insisting on playing TDM are a larger issue to the game than weapon balance. Those people are the root cause of all major problems right now.

[Keifomofutu]

Neverfar, on 30 April 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

You're wrong. I know this because I stopped one of these caps on several occasions. With an Atlas. Yes, it had a 360 engine, granted, but I wasn't ignorant enough to muck around directly in the middle, expecting everyone to just walk up to me and die. I anticipated a possible cap, and even while fighting, was able to turn around and stop the cap.

Your anecdote is defeated by my experience. Stop bloat-boating so much.

Cool you left your team out to dry in the middle while you base-camped in an assault. Congrats? For every one round that you win by stopping the cap they'll be 10 more that your team loses because you weren't pulling your weight at the front.

Your whole story is suspect. The lights have ways to get around you without you even knowing they're headed to cap.

silentD11, on 30 April 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

Bullcrap. If you use fast centurions or dragons you have a heavy that can linger a bit back, stop a cap if need, or support the group if needed. Of course, since these lose in TDM mode where everybody charges the center with slow moving mechs purely made to kill you don't see many of them.

So once again, people insisting on playing TDM are a larger issue to the game than weapon balance. Those people are the root cause of all major problems right now.

If you can tell me how to force people to play the game your way then I might have a bridge to sell you. People play the game the way that is most fun to them. You change their behavior by making the "intended behavior" fun.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 30 April 2013 - 12:32 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

Keifomofutu, on 30 April 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

Sorry no. Nothing short of max speed lights can get back to stop the cap on alpine or tourmaline from the middle. Its a long stretch even for a light. Should losing your single light on those maps be an autolose? Like I said though I think the devs are looking into it because assault is flat out broken as a game mode on those two maps.

You should be looking for the enemy and reacting to their movements. The problem isn't that the light is capping you faster than you can go back - it's that the light outplayed you by making it all the way to your base without seeing them. This is one of the things that defines light mech play and if you don't intercept them they have beaten you. Not all victories involve gunfire.

[Keifomofutu]

Neverfar, on 30 April 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

Sorry, you're not holding water here. Your anecdotes and experience have no more weight than mine. I have friends that can vouch for me that I play with, and I assume you have yours too.

The big difference: cap mechanics exist at the core of the game as a base mission objective. They are intended so that you are supposed to have, yes, maybe a light or two of your own, a medium or two to handle their lights. See where I'm going with this? You are apparently asking the game's metagame to stay (because currently it's leaning this way) in favor of bloated slow sniper alpha setups, and it's soooooo frustrating that it doesn't ALWAYS work because one of us uses a light. Uses a light the way it's intended to be used.

And you brought no lights of your own because you expect to win because you brought all bloat-boats? Boo freaking hoo. Your type throw the "entitlement" word around a lot here, but I'm smelling hypocrisy about that.

You know pub match team comp is random right? Weight matching behaving as poorly as it is I've seen multiple matches where one team has 4 lights and one team got slow mediums instead.

Guess how that one ended? And you don't know the enemy comp either so it isn't like you have reason to expect a whole lance of lights to cap the base in twenty seconds.

[silentD11]

Keifomofutu, on 30 April 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

You know pub match team comp is random right? Weight matching behaving as poorly as it is I've seen multiple matches where one team has 4 lights and one team got slow mediums instead.

Guess how that one ended? And you don't know the enemy comp either so it isn't like you have reason to expect a whole lance of lights to cap the base in twenty seconds.

There would be more diversity in classes picked if people went into the game with the goal of playing assault, instead of the goal of playing TDM in a big brawl or firing line in the center of the map. This is an issue caused by the TDM crowd, not the lights and groups that understand what's going on and try to play the game. The balancing against every single one of the streak cat, boomcat, gausscat, LRM, PPC boat has always been not playing "who has the best death dealer" but playing assault.

[Roadbeer]

Good post OP.

I think this has more to do with the overall meta, which hasn't been implemented yet. When wins/losses mean nothing other than CBill accumulation and Epeen stroking, you're going to see optimized builds and "Hulk Smash" tactics to boost the KDR.

I think (that with the exception of the obvious weapons balance issues), or at least I hope, that when the battles mean something in regards to the state of the 'battle lines' or holding a planet, you'll see more diverse builds and better tactics.

Personally, I've given up on Assault mode for the time being in favor of Conquest. There seems to be a smarter level of play on it (I used to hate it), and a bit of tactical diversity Yeah, the brawlers always seem to end up around Theta, but after the initial brawl, people seem to fall back to hold/take cap points.

[Trauglodyte]

Call me crazy (but never "surely") but I always hold back until the clock ticks down to 13min. That is regardless of whether I'm in my Cicada, Dragon, or Awesome. All three of them have enough speed to make up for the 120s that I spend lingering in the back. Now, I don't do that in my Awesome when I'm in Tourmaline or Alpine cause the map is just too damned big. But when I'm in my "bug", I go to the usual way points and ask, if there is another light in the group, to scout the far edge of the approach path. When the clock hits 13min, I'm gone.

I will say that the down side to holding back is that you're decently ok if it is only 1 mech with which you need to be concerned. But if it is multiple lights, you're in trouble no matter what you're piloting.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

No. The problem is weapons.

Why are people so vehemently denying it?

******* Hardpoint Sizes

[Roadbeer]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 30 April 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

No. The problem is weapons.

Why are people so vehemently denying it?

******* Hardpoint Sizes

Really? It's the weapon that makes you trundle to the center and mash your robot into another like a kid with a couple of mech shaped gingerbread cookies hoping you're the one with the most whole parts at the end to be called 'Winner'?

[Trauglodyte]

As an aside, it is understandable why people hate capping. Capping on the original 4 maps is fine cause they're small enough, even with the size of Caustic, for even the slowest of mechs to get back and do something. its the massive ones where everyone complains so much. And, quite frankly, it makes sense because there is a reason why everyone has weapons on their mechs - it isn't to fire warning shots.

But that people complain about it without putting themselves into the position to prevent it is what tickles me. It ****** me off, though, when I do my part or I swing back only to be left out to dry by the afore mentioned stat boarding idiots.

The real irony comes to light in a game that I played a few weeks ago. River City, as always, and my team starts at the port and goes through lower city while the other team naturally goes upper city. We're both in a cap war and, right as the game is about to end, someone shouts out "Capping is lame!" Well, I didn't see you come back and take us on by yourself so shaddap!

[silentD11]

Trauglodyte, on 30 April 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

As an aside, it is understandable why people hate capping. Capping on the original 4 maps is fine cause they're small enough, even with the size of Caustic, for even the slowest of mechs to get back and do something. its the massive ones where everyone complains so much. And, quite frankly, it makes sense because there is a reason why everyone has weapons on their mechs - it isn't to fire warning shots.

But that people complain about it without putting themselves into the position to prevent it is what tickles me. It ****** me off, though, when I do my part or I swing back only to be left out to dry by the afore mentioned stat boarding idiots.

The real irony comes to light in a game that I played a few weeks ago. River City, as always, and my team starts at the port and goes through lower city while the other team naturally goes upper city. We're both in a cap war and, right as the game is about to end, someone shouts out "Capping is lame!" Well, I didn't see you come back and take us on by yourself so shaddap!

Shockingly many mechs and builds that people currently deem worthless (cough mediums and dragons) are actually rather good on those larger maps playing a semi forward role where they can either return to base to stop or slow down a cap or move up if nobody attempts it. However they won't get used because people insist on playing "run to the middle and TDM", which makes sure that only use the best weapons, as many of them as possible is the strat that rules the day.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Um, do two things, make assault actually assault....ie give the maps a base to take, complete with turrets etc etc.

Two: Implement a TDM mode we have a crappy mode in conquest, soon to be a respawn dropship mutator, incoming third person and regional server splits.....their argument of we don't want to fracture the playerbase by adding TDM, is both dumb and see through.

[Roland]

Give us a TDM mode then, then the folks who don't want to fight won't be bothered by folks who do.