142 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

There are two things about the BAP-ECM interaction will change:

1) Light vs Light - ECM mechs won't have the same advantage over BAP equipped lights, but unfortunately this means anything that doesn't carry streaks is screwed. See Spider (and the Flea, which is pretty much more than DOA than before). The Commando will have a slight resurgence...

2) Anything missile/streak boat w/BAP vs Lights - Streakcats will be back in force... so those of you thinking that this helps light mechs... think again. Unless the current behavior of Streaks is not reworked, you will be slammed by what is already a weakened light population. Stalkers with the better missile hardpoints get an indirect buff... Awesomes... and many other missile heavy mechs will be able to fend off lights far better now. ECM will help reduce the impact, but giving BAP the avenue to make Steakboats popular again will hurt Light mech survival even further.

This isn't speculation.. Streakcats have been sighted due to the reduced light mech usage... this change will make it worse for lights.

[FrostCollar]

TVMA Doc, on 02 May 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

Yep, the Atlas D-DC will need... AMS

Nope. AMS hasn't been required on any build. Even if LRMs had useful damage again ECM is still a superior shield against them and AMS has never been anywhere near effective against SRMs and SSRMs.

[Past]

The ECM hard point change seems a little redundant after the BAP buff I'm a bit against anything that limits customization in the Mechlab. I have a double LBX10 DDC my only ECM mech and only one I use the LBX10 on knowing my luck they will put the hard point on the ballistic side torso and break the build the same patch they buff the LBX10. Really it will be broken if it gets put in either side torso.

The BAP change will probably result in streakcats reappearing but I think with HSR in place they won't be as bad as before it's easier than ever to clip their ears.

[The Strange]

zraven7, on 02 May 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

I'm wondering if it means it counters ECM specifically for the mech with the BAP equipped. Like, if you have a BAP, you can see and target them normally, but everyone else can't. I'm hoping that's what it means.

Nope, this was in the original quote.

"If Mech X has BAP, and Mech Y has ECM, and Mech X gets within 150m or less of Mech Y, Mech Y loses all effects of ECM. It is a 100% counter to ECM. Mech Y is now vulnerable to LRMs/S-SRMs as long as Mech X stays within 150m. Any friendly Mechs to Mech Y will no longer be shielded until Mech X leaves the 150m area around Mech Y."

So, say you have an ECM and I have a BAP. You are shielding your team from missiles with your ECM and I come within 150m of you, I nullify your entire ECM field and now everyone you were shielding is vulnerable to missile fire..

[Sephlock]

Didn't they also say in a different post that ECM is losing the bubble effect too?

[The Strange]

Keifomofutu, on 02 May 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

The current light "balance" is for Raven to be the numero uno light in virtually every situation. That's not balance at all.

Raven will still be a good gunboat after the change. It just won't be the best one. Jenner can't disrupt the enemy team. You really sound like you want to have your cake and eat it too with the Raven 3L.

The Raven wont be able to disrupt the enemy team anymore either. They are taking away the ability to jam IFF indicators, which was a great feature of ECM. Basically, they are ramming it to the Raven 3L, and buffing Jenners. Jenners are faster if I recall, as well as jump equipped, and can pack in more lasers along with the streaks. ECM was the only advantage the 3L ever had over the Jenner, and now a Jenner can pack a BAP and not even worry about it anymore.

If they are going to completely nullify ECM with BAP, then only certain variants of certain Mechs should be able to use a BAP, like only certain Mechs can use an ECM.

[Corvus Antaka]

We will probably be pretty much where we where before ECM ever happened except that LRMS will still be completely useless, the SSRM2 A1 will make a comeback, and the last light pilots will leave the battlefield.

[El Bandito]

3rdworld, on 02 May 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

Doesn't matter to me either way, I don't play lights. But trading 1 OP mech for a different OP mech specifically when the second mech has many more tools than the first, is not how you balance a game.

Jenners will NEVER be OP. Not as long as Jenners continue to have no ECM and people bring streaks.

[Matthew Ace]

I do not understand why Ultra AC/5 have a better ROF than the regular AC5 even when not using Ultra-mode. Although I applaud the slight range buff, I still think the AC5 could use a ROF boost from 1.7 to 1.5 (DPS 2.94 -> 3.33) or 1.4 (2.94 -> 3.57).

That's just my opinion though.

[Icewraith]

That's one hell of an ECM nerf there. What's the point of carrying it unless they make BAP also mech specific, hardpointed, and fragile?

Or, having a BAP within a certain distance of the ECM bubble should negate the effects of ecm on that particular mech, and enable it to spot for LRMs as long as it has a lock.

ECM could maybe still increase missile lock time or something but not negate it.

[El Bandito]

The Strange, on 02 May 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

Nope, this was in the original quote. "If Mech X has BAP, and Mech Y has ECM, and Mech X gets within 150m or less of Mech Y, Mech Y loses all effects of ECM. It is a 100% counter to ECM. Mech Y is now vulnerable to LRMs/S-SRMs as long as Mech X stays within 150m. Any friendly Mechs to Mech Y will no longer be shielded until Mech X leaves the 150m area around Mech Y." So, say you have an ECM and I have a BAP. You are shielding your team from missiles with your ECM and I come within 150m of you, I nullify your entire ECM field and now everyone you were shielding is vulnerable to missile fire..

Good luck getting into 150 meter range of the entire enemy team and come back in one piece. With the state rewind, even PPCs and Gauss Rifles are deadly at close range fights.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 May 2013 - 07:14 PM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

AC5 for when you absolutely, positively, can't afford 1 extra ton for the longer ranged, faster firing UAC5. The extra range is better than a kick in the nuts, but only because it is better to be insulted than assaulted.

LB10x - step in the right direction, but I wonder what the actual spread is at its max range of 1,600m.

LRMs - A smaller buff than I expected, but as many changes that LRMs have undergone, I think baby steps are a smart move.

MGs - I'm probably most excited about this one. For some reason I like MGs on my Cent's and Dragons, free DPS with that wide target arm, plus speed to blow out a back torso and to let those MGs really work on the insides.

BAP - I'm not sure I like their decision, it was kind of random. I imagine there will be a few CPLT-A1's that return for the instant lock, ECM/shutdown-proof SSRMs, and of course the existing ECM light mechs will need it because their counter ECM will be disabled and their streaks wont work.
I'm not sure what to think, about a quarter of my mechs already have it, but they aren't the ones who would benefit from the new ability.

ECM - really another buff (doesn't affect friendly IIF) and a inconsequential change. Now if ECM took an energy slot, I would consider that a significant cost.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 02 May 2013 - 08:29 PM.

[Tickdoff Tank]

zraven7, on 02 May 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

These numbers would make 4mg mechs honestly kinda scary.

Not really. The extra damage is only to internal COMPONENTS, not structure. For instance, the L arm of the Centurion has nothing inside it, the MG will still be pathetic and will take too long to destroy it. Center Torso? Engine crits do nothing, gyro crits do nothing, no extra damage to structure. So unless you have weapons in your 2 free slots then you are not doing anything special with the MG. ALl the MGs crit seeking is good for is stripping out weapons quickly, but other weapons do it better. This change IS a step in the right direction, but I am afraid it will not be enough.

That is the fundamental problem with a crit seeking weapon in MWO, not enough items have any effect when destroyed. That reduces the effectiveness of crits in general.

Despite what I have just written, I hope this MG change works better than I think it will. I want the MG to be useful, I just don't think we are quite there yet. Bump the damage to .12 per bullet and we will be pretty close.

[Jelan]

I'm from the camp that thought ECM was massively OP and poorly implemented, however with the multitude of great suggestions to tone down ECM from the community the best thing they could come up with was to smash it to pieces with a big BAP hammer

Son, I am disappoint.

The rest, meh

[Zaptruder]

Anemic changes to the MG and LBX. You'd almost swear that the dev had their villages wiped out by machine gun and LBX Autocannon wielding troops, they seem that afraid to buff them, even in the overwhelming face of evidence and feedback.

Missles stepping in the right direction - but I think 150m/s w/ 15% dmg buff would help restore them to their former glory, without making them quite so potent in damage terms, but improving their ability to strike at higher skilled wall huggers.

BAP buff will see an overwhelming return of streaks though... Maybe not the worst thing in the world. Between PPCs and streaks, I think I'd prefer to see streaks boated.

Requiring them to relock after each fire would probably make them just about right DPS wise though.

[Karl Streiger]

Zyllos, on 02 May 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

The AC/5 change of 540m to 620m is EXTREMELY odd. Why not reduce the cooldown to match that of the UAC/5 instead of upping the range?

I think the AC 5 is a specialized weapon. Some one listened it before.
Look hardly any weapon can match the DPS ratio of a AC 2 or a couple of them
But the heat is killing the usable duration.
The Gauss another cool runnig weapon...is unmatched with its Alpha damage.

The AC 5 however has the best substained damage. So if there would be the day were you have to form the Wall of Steel...stood or die...the AC 5 is your best friend...you don't have to hold back, you don't have to make a break...just keep firing...after 7 secs 2 AC 5 work as good as a single Gauss....after some more seconds...they are even able too keep with the 3 AC 2 because of the heat

What makes me really mad is the BAP vs ECM story.....like a car that lost controll...left, right, left...but in the end you still hit the wall

Edited by Karl Streiger, 03 May 2013 - 01:21 AM.

[Mechteric]

DocBach, on 02 May 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

Yeah - this is pretty much another tax to use LRMs. Someone who uses direct fire still isn't affected at all, but if you want to use missiles's in an ECM environment, better pack 1 ton for your TAG for your LRMs and another 1.5 tons for your Beagle to use Streaks.

If you run an LRM boat with no streaks then you won't really need BAP for ECM countering. But you'll still probably want BAP with LRM because:


+ 25% increased sensor range
+ 25% decreased target level acquisition time


Combine that with TAG and Artemis and you'll be flinging missiles around pretty fast indeed. Additionally, from a teamwork perspective, the possibilities of what a scout unit with BAP and TAG can do will be incredible for team players. (why, hello, Raven 3L with BAP, ECM, and TAG or... gasp... NARC!)

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 03 May 2013 - 06:48 AM.

[Zyllos]

Sephlock, on 02 May 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

Didn't they also say in a different post that ECM is losing the bubble effect too?

Any way to confirm this?

I have never heard such.

[Haji1096]

I hate ECM.

Everyone will take a BAP on their mech if they can. Negating ECM is too awesome of a feature, people will find 1.5 tons for it.

Are they going to limit to some models ?

I think PGI should just get rid of ECM and BAP entirely, reduce the LOS at which sensors work based on the size of a mech:
Assaults detectable on radar at 1000 meters
Heavies at 750
Mediums at 500
Lights at 300

If an enemy is tagged, they show up regardless of their size.

That way lights can use scout more effectively, mediums have a role as flankers. No one has to worry about which is more OP, BAP...or ECM

[Mechteric]

Zyllos, on 03 May 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

Quote

Didn't they also say in a different post that ECM is losing the bubble effect too?

Any way to confirm this?

I have never heard such.

Its because it was never said. The only thing said is that when BAP is cancelling ECM, mechs in the ECM bubble field range will not be protected until that BAP leaves the ECM cancelling range:

Quote

If Mech X has BAP, and Mech Y has ECM, and Mech X gets within 150m or less of Mech Y, Mech Y loses all effects of ECM. It is a 100% counter to ECM. Mech Y is now vulnerable to LRMs/S-SRMs as long as Mech X stays within 150m. Any friendly Mechs to Mech Y will no longer be shielded until Mech X leaves the 150m area around Mech Y.