362 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Lokust, on 30 July 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

nothing over 100 tons ever existed in canon Battletech. Some people consider the Wizkids "Classic Battletech" story stuff to be canon, but as far as I'm concerned the story ends at the FedCom civil war storyline, because everything Wizkids did was beyond terrible.

Except that canon is determined by Catalyst, and they put the Omega into the end of the Jihad. And they're the only real judges on that, or else we'd still be stuck in 3025 with the REALLY bad grognards. One can be happy that the superheavy became extinct almost as soon as it actually got into a fight, however. As of the current Classic BT timeline, there are zero superheavies functional and no production facilities for them in even remotely intact condition.

[wanderer]

Natasha Kerensky, on 30 July 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

That kinda looks like a suped up Stone Rhino.

Well it should. It's what happens when you apply better engineering and technology to a truly big set of problems and can count a lot of it's origins coming from the Folly.

Only this time, they managed to solve the issues and get it to work properly. For the brief period said machines existed, anyway.

[Sky walker]

100t+ Mech is same BS as LAM or Dark Age events.

[TG Xarbala]

The Omega is an interesting fire-support platform, by which I mean it's a barely mobile turret. It's essentially designed as something of a "boss" fight for people playing Jihad era campaigns or agreed-upon scenarios set in the battle for Terra. Much like how the Manei Domini aren't designed for players competitively but rather as enemies to fight in scenarios or campaigns, Omegas are fearsome when taken in isolation but flawed. Most of the interesting Wobbie toys are meant to provide interesting opponents in scenarios, not necessarily to give players more competitive options.

Note that Manei Domini, Superheavies, and Wobbie LAMs are overpriced in terms of BV for this very reason.

The Ares, on the other hand, was made for clickytech which has a completely different model of play. Most accounts agree that it was actually very bad in MWDA, too, though. Really, not much about MWDA makes sense when translated back into Battletech. This is why the Ares has a schizophrenic armament.

Edited by TG Xarbala, 19 August 2012 - 12:07 AM.

[wanderer]

Python46, on 18 August 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

um, saying tripod and quad mechs would make it not battletech ignores the fact there were at least 2 quad mechs designed before 3060, per the game. the king crab was a quad and so was the behemoth. they are canon and they are legitimate battlemechs. but, unlike that joke people keep bandying about, they didn't require 3 pilots. i think the behemoth might have had a second seat and a C3 in it, for comms, but i can't recall full details and i'm too lazy to look them up, right now. kids just suck the energy out of us parents. regardless, quad mechs aren't an abomination. just a rarity. over 100 tons, on the other hand, would be an abomination. and ridiculous, besides. 100 is good enough for the top end. don't get all WoT with it's promise of tier 11 and tier 12 tanks, in the future.

Neither the King Crab or the Behemoth are quads. They're bipedal and 100 tons, the maximum for an assault 'Mech. The Behemoth is also a Clan design and had no C3 system (as the Clans don't use it).

Also, I expect that when the classic Battletech folks actually get to the "tripods", they're going to be an experimental pile of junk, pretty much like they were in MWDA. And good riddance.

[Zakatak]

Skylarr, on 19 August 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

The Landkreuzer P. 1000 Ratte (lit.: Land Cruiser P. 1000 "Rat") was a design for a super-heavy tank for use by Nazi Germany during World War II.
[color=black][color=black][/color][/color]


The Landkreuzer P 1500 Monster was a German pre-prototype super-heavy tank designed during World War II, representing the apex of the German extreme tank designs.

I see your German designs, I raise you a 19000 ton BOLO.



Could probably take on the Clan Invasion and Jihad at the same time. By itself.

Edited by Zakatak, 19 August 2012 - 12:12 AM.

[Skylarr]

Originally conceived during the Star League era, the Land-Air 'Mech (or LAM) is a hybrid military unit capable of transforming between BattleMech and Aerospace Fighter forms. This ability conveys great speed and flexibility at the cost of power and protection. LAMs are a preferred recon and raiding unit but their fragility and rarity made them uncommon in the original SLDF and increasingly so in the Succession War era. Save for a brief revival during the final years of the Word of Blake, the Land-Air 'Mech has been relegated to museums.

[TG Xarbala]

Zakatak, on 19 August 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

I see your German designs, I raise you a 19000 ton BOLO.



Could probably take on the Clan Invasion and Jihad at the same time. By itself.

And that Bolo would probably be a more interesting and well-written character than Victor Steiner-Davion, to boot.

[Alex Wolfe]

Skylarr, on 19 August 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

Originally conceived during the Star League era, the Land-Air 'Mech (or LAM) is a hybrid military unit capable of transforming between BattleMech and Aerospace Fighter forms. This ability conveys great speed and flexibility at the cost of power and protection. LAMs are a preferred recon and raiding unit but their fragility and rarity made them uncommon in the original SLDF and increasingly so in the Succession War era. Save for a brief revival during the final years of the Word of Blake, the Land-Air 'Mech has been relegated to museums.

I see your quote and raise you this one, by Zack Parsons

Quote

[...]we didn't even get into the horribly lame Land Air Mechs that were ripped directly out of Robotech, made no sense in Battletech, and were basically jet fighters with legs and arms dangling off the bottom. There was lots of great stuff though.

...pretty much sums up a lot of people's feelings about them. Yeah, they're canon, unfortunately. No, they aren't cool. Along with Proto-mechs, I wouldn't mind one bit if someone took the retcon-bat to them. They're the sentient birds of Battlemech construction.

Skylarr, on 19 August 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

The Landkreuzer P. 1000 Ratte (lit.: Land Cruiser P. 1000 "Rat") was a design for a super-heavy tank for use by Nazi Germany during World War II.

Oh yeah, I remember how these changed the fate of the battle of... wait a second...

Quote

Issues

Development of the Panzer VIII Maus had highlighted significant practical problems associated with very large tanks, such as their destruction of roads, their inability to use bridges and the difficulty of strategic transportation by road or rail. The bigger the tank, the bigger these problems became, to the point where they were insurmountable.
Propulsion had also proved problematic in the development of the Maus: The prototype had failed to meet its specified speed requirements which meant that even larger tanks such as the P 1500 were likely to be slow-moving and, due to its massive size, it would be a major target to Allied aircraft.

So it turned out that putting all your military eggs into a gigantic, slow-moving basket (however well armored) is dumb, so they scratched it and no-one attempted ever since.

Nazi Germany and bad ideas, who would've thought?

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 19 August 2012 - 12:44 AM.

[Melcyna]

Ah good ole Bolo, nothing is quite as awesome as sentient land ship capable of firing into the orbit against capital ships.

Zakatak, on 18 August 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

From a realism point of view, 100 tons is already extremely high. A mech that weighs more then that would probably just sink into the ground and fall if it stepped on anything that isn't pavement.

Tripod mechs are stupid.

Kinda moot because if we go by that argument direction we don't need to go 100 tons,

Someone did a calculation before on ground pressure for some known mecha and by estimating it's dimension from images and known stats.

A Commando with estimated foot print area of about 1.47m square each, by just standing still exert about 11psi, the moment it RUNS it exert anywhere from 30-40psi, almost 3 times the ground pressure of modern tank.

So there is not much of a point for us to argue from the angle of ground pressure because the ENTIRE bipedal giant mecha system is unfeasible from that angle, regardless of which weight class from BT mech we use.

Edited by Melcyna, 19 August 2012 - 03:55 AM.

[Death In A Cup]

I don't exactically see that happening, it would either be too OP or they would have to nerf it massivly. Than its just a very big atlas.

[TG Xarbala]

And if anybody's wondering, Battlemechs actually weigh far too little for their size. For example, the M1A1 Abrams tank weighs 60 tons. That's as much as a Dragon, and it's a mere fraction the size. Trying to bring realism into the equation in whether or not `Mechs can weigh more than 100 tons or not blatantly overlooks the fact that an Atlas, if it were made of solid construction materials, would weigh much, much more than that in real life.

Put in perspective, something the size of the Atlas weighing only 100 tons means it could topple over in a strong wind. That T-28 superheavy tank posted by Skylarr? It weighs as much as a Banshee and could fit in a `Mech's torso.

So let's leave realism out of this.

On another topic:

Death In A Cup, on 19 August 2012 - 04:11 AM, said:

I don't exactically see that happening, it would either be too OP or they would have to nerf it massivly. Than its just a very big atlas.

You don't have to see it, it already happened. (See previous posts in thread.) It's certainly more of a novelty than a competitive option for players, but superheavy `Mechs exist in classic Battletech. They don't need to be nerfed since they're already extremely slow and easy to hit. You even get a bonus to hit them, they're that huge. But everything takes up less critical space in a superheavy `Mech, including engines and the gyro, so you can do things like fit a Gauss Rifle in the center torso and have room to spare. And the only things tougher to kill than a superheavy `Mech in tabletop are superheavy vehicles, mobile structures, or DropShips.

EDIT: Just as well that they're sitting ducks and easy to focus fire on. With artillery, too.

Edited by TG Xarbala, 19 August 2012 - 04:40 AM.

[Skylarr]

Alex Wolfe, on 19 August 2012 - 12:39 AM, said:

I see your quote and raise you this one, by Zack Parsons


...pretty much sums up a lot of people's feelings about them. Yeah, they're canon, unfortunately. No, they aren't cool. Along with Proto-mechs, I wouldn't mind one bit if someone took the retcon-bat to them. They're the sentient birds of Battlemech construction.

Some people like the idea of LAMS and some do not. I would want to see them in MWO. I do not think they would work unless you had a much larger battlefield.

Quote

Oh yeah, I remember how these changed the fate of the battle of... wait a second...

I copied and pasted the info from wiki. I did not realize at the time it said the germans used them. They were only on the drawing board.

[Keisuke Nagisa]

There is a new mech that was put in the Jihad final reckoning book called the Omega in the 3070's. I actually bought one as they made a miniature.

http://fc07.devianta...ter-d4l6yun.jpg

I have used it in a few games and wouldnt call it OP. Its armament is 3 gauss rifles and 2 AC10's. Its slow as hell and has C3i.

The ares is terrible looking and has a terrible armament. Screw tripods

[Alex Wolfe]

Skylarr, on 19 August 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

I copied and pasted the info from wiki. I did not realize at the time it said the germans used them. They were only on the drawing board.

They didn't use them and my quote was tongue-in-cheek, sorry if it wasn't clear. The quote I made refers to the smaller one, 188-ton Maus, of which there was only one complete.

The reason for that is that a heavy tank is good, but after reaching a certain weight, a tank becomes just a pile of fail and dead weight, huge bullseye that can be immobilized by a minor failure. It's same as how you'd want your heavyweight wrestler to weigh around 100 kg, 150 is pushing it and the guy had better be tall, but 200+ kg would likely mean that a person is more sick than strong. Run around him for a while, he'll gas and fall over by himself.

The German engineers simply realized how fail the design was and scrapped it at the 188 ton mark, never getting around to building 1500 ton ones. It's the same deal with superheavy mechs... it has 3 gauss rifles, big whoop. So do three Hollanders, and they're fast enough not to be instantly obliterated by any piece of artillery within a 50 mile radius.

I don't like the protos and LAMs because I believe them to be conceptually stupid, and wouldn't mind them to be redacted to kingdom come. Super-heavy mechs, on the other hand, I believe stupid in-universe. I don't mind them that much - that problem fixes itself. Can't move, can't turn, has a firepower of half-a-heavy-lance. It's going 21 kph, you can outrun it on a bicycle. Beating this is just the matter of time and a bit of patience.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 19 August 2012 - 09:34 AM.

[M E X]

THE Leo, on 05 June 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

When you think about it, why the hell has no one ever tried creating a Mech over a 100 tons? It would mean more firepower, more space, and more awesomeness. Of course that would also mean even less maneuverability, even less speed, and even less response time.

Imagine feeling like a badass in your atlas thinking 'oh yeah i am a freaking boss' and then BAM! you come up to this Mech that makes you feel like crawling into bed and hiding beneath the blankets (like we all know that helps, ha!)

So a 100+ ton Mech huh?...... hmmmm... earthquake possibilities anyone??

I prefer several smaller & faster mechs of the same tonnage instead of any of these 100+ ton monsters ... a single hit to the HEAD can spoil the the fun for any of these little boys who love these big toys in a REAL Classic Battle Tech game

MfG, MEX

PS: Just ask the CBT gamers here in Vienna, centuies ago I was famous for copping heads of much bigger mechs with my light mech ;P

[M E X]

Zakatak, on 19 August 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

I see your German designs, I raise you a 19000 ton BOLO...

BOLO's are no mechs !

They are from a compleatly different universe, where for example a pair of Bolo can defend a planet against a entire invasion fleet ( including shooting the ships in orbit ! )

Just read yourself:
http://en.wikipedia....Bolo_%28tank%29


MfG, MEX

[MikeMurdock]

the only one was that ares unit, but the problem is the settign is in 3049 not 3100 whatever in MW dark age. so there won't be any colussous mechs. also it would be useless in game. sure it will have weapons to spare ,but it'll ust be a big target for everyone. it's like just painting yourself a " HIT ME HERE " target

[TG Xarbala]

M E X, on 19 August 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

BOLO's are no mechs !

They are from a compleatly different universe, where for example a pair of Bolo can defend a planet against a entire invasion fleet ( including shooting the ships in orbit ! )

Just read yourself:
http://en.wikipedia....Bolo_%28tank%29


MfG, MEX

Just so you understand how silly you've just been:

We know that.

[Deceptor]

Those crazy Nazis. Anyway, no stupid big mechs unless they are some kind of PVE boss.