362 replies to this topic

[Woska]

Totally not interested in super heavy mechs.

The Battletech system is reasonably well balanced. But throwing the 100 ton cap out the window would ruin that.

[Sporkosophy]

Alex Wolfe, on 06 June 2012 - 07:07 AM, said:

Redesigned mechs, timeline with player involvement with new facts that didn't appear in previous works (which means that, if it's not a reboot, it's retroactive continuity), early access to pulse lasers and similar tech... things are changing already.

Those things make it a reboot as far as I'm concerned. No need to force hated stuff down the players' throats.

I haven't seen any early access to tech. PGI has said they're keeping with the canonical story line.

Kittygrinder, on 06 June 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

Youre mixing up your reboots.

A few years ago, Battletechs parent company went out of business, Wizkids game bought the btech IP and made what is notoriously known as Mechwarrior: Dark Age. It was Mage Knight with mechs, just really really bad. The story was the word of blake( i think) went nuts and nuked everyone and everything and put the IS and Clans in a "dark age". Thats where this Ares 100+ ton mech comes from.

A couple years later Catalyst Games bought the Btech IP (and Shadowrun ) and basically rebooted everything back to 3072 and moved from there. The Word of Blake did have their Jihad, but were beaten, and they nuked a few people, but it didnt go the way of dark age.

The Mechwarrior Video game reboot is that awesome trailer that we saw a few years ago, and never heard from again, to now with MWO.

Filling in the gap is not a reboot. The Dark Ages are still going to happen; Fortress Republics superweapons is legit. The people who own the IP have said as such.

[Chunkymonkey]

Maybe after the game is 40 years old during the Jihad.

The Ares mech and the variants are 135 ton tripodal mechs.

[SilverWolf]

dont tell the Clans

[KANE LIVES]

LordDeathStrike, on 05 June 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

mech skeleton/muscles/power plant have to be able to support and move the machine. these things were fully designed on paper with some common sense rules, and for the era of tech we are in in BT those rules state 100T weight limit for any practicle designs. this is a sim, the rules matter.
You mean like "amaris folly (or however you spell that)" couldn't do it, so no one can? Well, the Word of Blake did!

mmmmmm impenetrable ultra ferro armor

3 battleship railguns on the dorsal and 2 battleship plasma cannon arms!

and god only knows how many rear and side fireing automated defense small med lasers machine guns and flamers!

too bad the top speed is standing still cause its feet sank into the ferro crete streets.

Unfortunately not, 3 Gauss rifles, 2 LB-10-X ACs. Boom. Takes a Gauss to the head and survives? Cool! Moves 2/3? Ehh, Lyrans don't care!

[Aethon]

Alex Wolfe, on 06 June 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

However much player involvement there is, it's more than "zero" that the original continuity gave, which makes that players will retroactively write new "canon". The weapons weren't available, they were discovered and in top secret R&D, not introduced to the militaries and definitely not to merc bands until later. In this continuity it was announced that they'd be made widely available already, which would constitute a "canon breach" for the purists, and is a sign that PGI doesn't seem to mind deviations from the beaten path.

Adding a weapon system that doesn't break the game a couple years early, and introducing superheavy mechs about a hundred years early, are two totally different things. You're not even comparing apples and oranges here; this is more like kangaroos and spaceships.

Not to mention, the IS is going to need some tech help to keep the IS players from feeling totally screwed when the Clans arrive. However, I've yet to see a solid argument that anyone NEEDS superheavy mechs.

[Arctic Fox]

Alex Wolfe, on 06 June 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

However much player involvement there is, it's more than "zero" that the original continuity gave, which makes that players will retroactively write new "canon". The weapons weren't available, they were discovered and in top secret R&D, not introduced to the militaries and definitely not to merc bands until later. In this continuity it was announced that they'd be made widely available already, which would constitute a "canon breach" for the purists, and is a sign that PGI doesn't seem to mind deviations from the beaten path.

It's true that the vast majority of recovered technology deployed during the War of 3039 and the early 3040s consisted of prototypes, but by 3049 you have numerous designs using production models of things like Pulse Lasers and other recovered technology. They might not be extremely common, but they exist, so that hardly breaks canon.

Kittygrinder, on 06 June 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

Youre mixing up your reboots.

A few years ago, Battletechs parent company went out of business, Wizkids game bought the btech IP and made what is notoriously known as Mechwarrior: Dark Age. It was Mage Knight with mechs, just really really bad. The story was the word of blake( i think) went nuts and nuked everyone and everything and put the IS and Clans in a "dark age". Thats where this Ares 100+ ton mech comes from.

A couple years later Catalyst Games bought the Btech IP (and Shadowrun ) and basically rebooted everything back to 3072 and moved from there. The Word of Blake did have their Jihad, but were beaten, and they nuked a few people, but it didnt go the way of dark age.

The Mechwarrior Video game reboot is that awesome trailer that we saw a few years ago, and never heard from again, to now with MWO.

You're mixing up the timeline a bit. The Dark Age happens 50 years after the Jihad ends as a result of the HPG network blackout, not because of the Word of Blake (Well, I guess we don't know who did it yet, so it might be the WoB...). What Catalyst (and FanPro) did was go back to where the Classic timeline ended and continue it from there as it was originally supposed to be, but the Dark Age hasn't been retconned and is still going to happen in the future (Next year, that is).

Edited by Arctic Fox, 06 June 2012 - 08:11 AM.

[Kittygrinder]

Arctic Fox, on 06 June 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

It's true that the vast majority of recovered technology deployed during the War of 3039 and the early 3040s consisted of prototypes, but by 3049 you have numerous designs using production models of things like Pulse Lasers and other recovered technology. They might not be extremely common, but they exist, so that hardly breaks canon.



You're mixing up the timeline a bit. The Dark Age happens 50 years after the Jihad ends as a result of the HPG network blackout, not because of the Word of Blake (Well, I guess we don't know who did it yet, so it might be the WoB...). What Catalyst (and FanPro) did was go back to where the Classic timeline ended and continue it from there as it was originally supposed to be, but the Dark Age hasn't been retconned and is still going to happen in the future (Next year, that is).

Interesting, I didnt know they were going to continue on with it.

[wanderer]

THE Leo, on 05 June 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

When you think about it, why the hell has no one ever tried creating a Mech over a 100 tons? It would mean more firepower, more space, and more awesomeness. Of course that would also mean even less maneuverability, even less speed, and even less response time.

Imagine feeling like a badass in your atlas thinking 'oh yeah i am a freaking boss' and then BAM! you come up to this Mech that makes you feel like crawling into bed and hiding beneath the blankets (like we all know that helps, ha!)

So a 100+ ton Mech huh?...... hmmmm... earthquake possibilities anyone??

It doesn't happen for a while, but you've got another 30 or so years until the first actual working superheavy shows up, the Omega. Later on, there's the infamous 3-leggers Wizkids came up with. They won't show up in MWO for obvious reasons, unless we're all dying of old age.

Of course, the Omega has it's own miniature of awesome.

[Xantars]

bigger isnt better if you cant chatch me you cant shoot me but my friends can light you up once ive spotted you.

[Grayson Pryde]

This whole thread reminds me of this:



The correct answer should be that a even bigger mech would be an even bigger target for bombers.

[McScwizzy]

It is blasphemy to bring up anything bigger than 100 tons. The colossal Ares is something that was built in the Dark Ages and would rather forget it even happened. lol

[wanderer]

McScwizzy, on 06 June 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

It is blasphemy to bring up anything bigger than 100 tons. The colossal Ares is something that was built in the Dark Ages and would rather forget it even happened. lol

Pssh. The Omega is pre-Dark Ages (when Terra gets invaded to drive out the Blakists), and was put into the game AFTER WizKids. We can hope the three-leggers are something that never gets past the few models prototyped for sheer goofy. Catalyst's been good at trying to do their best even with the junk WizKids handed them for the Jihad/Dark Ages so far, so I'm not feeling too bad.

And as noted, we'll all be old or dead by the point the Ares comes along, much less the Omega!

[Alex Wolfe]

Arctic Fox, on 06 June 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

You're mixing up the timeline a bit. The Dark Age happens 50 years after the Jihad ends as a result of the HPG network blackout, not because of the Word of Blake (Well, I guess we don't know who did it yet, so it might be the WoB...). What Catalyst (and FanPro) did was go back to where the Classic timeline ended and continue it from there as it was originally supposed to be, but the Dark Age hasn't been retconned and is still going to happen in the future (Next year, that is).

Ummm... you sure about that?

Quote

For those who are undoubtedly freaking out right now, don’t worry, the Dark Age isn’t going to have any influence over MechWarrior Online (or at least not for a very very very long time).

- David Bradley, from dev. interview 3. The devs are aware DA doesn't have a very warm reception with players, so it's unlikely they'll follow through with it... or even if they do, they may change it into something awesome like they do with many mech designs, in which case that's no longer an issue.

And the guy who mentioned "100+ton mechs are even bigger target for bombers" makes a good point. Bigger isn't always better, it often means too many eggs in one basket. Not worth the cost, hassle and the insane logistics problems.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 06 June 2012 - 09:34 AM.

[Arctic Fox]

Alex Wolfe, on 06 June 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

Ummm... you sure about that?

Yes. I was talking about BattleTech, not MechWarrior Online. Of course MWO won't reach the Dark Age for a very long time, unless time is accelerated or certain periods are skipped.

[Alex Wolfe]

Arctic Fox, on 06 June 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

Yes. I was talking about BattleTech, not MechWarrior Online. Of course MWO won't reach the Dark Age for a very long time, unless time is accelerated or certain periods are skipped.

Ah. Gotcha.

Well, here's hoping that those responsible would actually take the cue from player reception, change their mind and bury the abomination forever, though.

[raises a glass to abomination vitrification]

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 06 June 2012 - 09:47 AM.

[Sychodemus]

I don't foresee MWO making any massive changes to the timeline or the lore of Battletech. As far as I know that has never been their mandate; making a fun and functional 'Mech-shooter is. Nothing revealed in MWO so far has violated any established canon.


As much as some may dislike the Jihad or the opening of Dark Ages, it is the way it is. Battletech has never used the retcon hammer excessively or recklessly - this is something to be grateful for. It has introduced technology retroactively as part of Total War, in order to facilitate the construction of alternate vehicle types and eras (pre-"modern" Age of War, etc) and it has established - after years and years of player begging - offical introduction dates for weapons, equipment and vehicles.
Super-heavy 'Mechs - love them or hate them - are canon. This does not mean that they are effective, logical or common. It just means that they exist as far as the in-universe lore is concerned. The writers specifically made them cost prohibitive and limited so that they never eclipse the traditional 20-100 tonners. So, their only real value is one of shock; they are freaks that can have a momentary effect (especially in a roleplay sense) but hardly a lasting one.


CGL is moving the canon storyline forward from where it stopped: 3139+/- and are merely filling in the gaps between the Jihad and the "new" Dark Age. (Dark Age Turning Points mark the BT entry into the Dark Age.)
Again, whether you like it or not, that is where the storyline is. They are not going to change it, if for no other reason than it would only delay the advancement of the game for years yet again.

Battletech lore has been filled with absurd, illogical storylines from the very beginning. Whether you take issue with the idea of LAMs (giant robots are just as silly), over-powered technology (the "base" technology is just as broken) or "unbelieveable" events like the Jihad (the Fall of the Star League, the Succession Wars and the Clans can be just as absurd) is irrelevant. That is Battletech - it has always been that way and always will. If you don't like a particular era of BT, then may I suggest that you don't play in that era?

[Alex Wolfe]

Well, you and me seem to simply have different ideas on the untouchability of canon. The approach "what's done is done" is pretty much the only possible for reality, but for fiction I have no problem if re-tellings of stories have bits changed or altered to remove lapsus while keeping the essence of the franchise.

I'm fine with squats and zoats not being a part of Warhammer 40k universe, fine with Lex Luthor hating Superman for reasons other than the latter making the former lose hair, I'm fine with midichlorians and Star Wars Holiday Special never being mentioned again, and I'm perfectly fine with the ridiculous (yes, ridiculous even within the "walking robots" premise) LAMs and proto-mechs never appearing in wherever the modern mech line will go from now. If it happens, well, it happens, it's the writers' prerogative, but should they decide to phase it out because it simply didn't click, or turned out to be a bad idea in hindsight - I'd be all for it.

In short, I simply don't see canon as sanctum sanctorum, especially since with so many people writing it and pitching their own ideas, it's nearly impossible to keep consistency and sense. I'm not saying that people who love canon and deem it untouchable are wrong or something, I simply disagree with "that happened, deal with it" mentality - there is plenty of precedence to the contrary, and often beneficial to the line as a whole. Rather than see canon as untouchable and "done deed", I see it as partially malleable with consistency being the guide.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 06 June 2012 - 11:54 AM.

[BladedDragon]

A 100 ton mech would amuse me but it would be slow as heck. I for one can't wait to get my hands on the Omega from IWMs. The thing is 23 pieces ...

[MogCarns]

Ok... to clear up the canon/non-canon...

The very last act in BattleTech is Katherine joining Clan Wolf. Everything else is poorly written fan fiction, regardless of who happened to own the IP at the time. You are welcome to your opinions, however wrong they may be.


Super Large Battlemechs simply do not work. They take too much power and the myomers and actuators cannot support the weight and function to move the battlemech. In the fluff of most 100 ton designs, it is very clearly noted that the Mech is only barely mobile... the Amaris version of the Behemoth shut down and fried its parts trying to move.

Now, as for multileg versions... yes, you could do that to relieve the strain. However, much like the Goliath, the loss of one leg is enough to cripple the mech. it also costs you a good portion of your critical slots. Unless you have been granted access to level 3 rules, every weapon has only one facing, and there is no torso twist or arm movement to compensate.


So, you end up with a 2/3 max Mech, that mounts, at best, a pair of PPCS and some LRMS, because the mech is too slow to defend itself in close. You lack Critical slots for things like heat sinks if you put any more weapons on it. As an added bonus, the mech is completely crippled if ANY ONE SECTION IS DESTROYED. You have to run just to turn around. Anyone with access to a few light mechs can tear you apart without you being able to do anything about it.

Or you could have four Stalkers for the same price. Gee... math is hard.