179 replies to this topic

[Foust]

Strategy and fun are two separate topics. If you are unwilling to execute a strategy that requires a certain amount a patience, that does not speak poorly of the strategy.

There also seems to be an assumption that the skill of a pilot rests on the amount damage done in a match, with no weight given to the ability to complete objectives. Like it or not, one of the victory conditions is base capture and there are viable options to prevent early capture.

[Caviel]

Atheus, on 07 May 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Well for now, it's not, so I'll just keep doing what I enjoy.

Go for it, as will the folks that are still happy to win via base capture.

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or how I can stop losing if I stop valuing having fun so much and prioritize winning.

So if you really prioritize combat over winning, other than that 2% of matches that actually end via base capture with no deaths, what exactly is the problem since the 98% majority of matches have some combat within them?

If you lose to base capture, and you don't care about the loss, and there is only the trivial amount of time to join another match in the 20% of cases that actually end in base capture, I'm not seeing where it is that big of a problem. 1 out of 5 matches didn't play out the way you were anticipating with a victory by destruction.

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Or, OR, OR, maybe you can just accept that PGI isn't accommodating all their players interests with their 2 "capture the base" game modes.

I never said PGI is accommodating all possible game modes that players want with the current two game modes. I'm simply stating that because the current game modes do not have a TDM equivalent, don't expect the other team to comply with arbitrary "no funzies rulez" of not capturing bases.

I fully support the inclusion of a destruction only type mode for players that want that type of play, more play options are generally not a bad thing. Just remember these predictions about a TDM mode:

-Be prepared to fight a team of 8/12 Assault mechs, there is almost zero value to take anything lighter unless enforced by PGI through weight/BV limits.
-There is no tactical reason to not move as a group of 8/12, you will always have equal or superior numbers this way, and there is no reason to split up as there are no alternate objectives to protect/go after.
-Some players will die within 3 seconds of initial contact due to massive focus fire which is, to me, the least fun as there are currently no respawn options.
-A troll group would be all light mechs that scatter to the far corners of the map, coordinate to get one kill ahead of the opposing team, then disappear and shut-down and wait for the timer to run down and win via score, just because they can.

You might think it's fun at first to get the guaranteed giant furball, although that mode will get very stale, very quickly, with only one road to team victory.

[Morikuro]

Atheus, on 08 May 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

The light mech is not such a pathetic machine that the best thing they can do is walk around the enemy and go stand on their base. If it is, that's a problem with the pilot, or the game design, or both, and that should be resolved. It is pretty consistent with my experience if I do go back and defend the base that the pilot of the base stomper is usually not all that good at fighting, which only serves to fortify my suspicion that most do it because they're unable to fight well in the first place.

It's not. I routinely wait to get involved until the heavies and assaults are damaged or busy, which honestly isn't a bad idea with any mech so long as you're not a front liner design. I don't believe for a second claims about lights being totally non-competative, since I find any match where I just get blown away it happens regardless of my weight class (and when I don't I do decently). Lights actually give me more survivability since I can use the terrain and such to mask fire on my machine, but that's me. I support the idea that it's the pilot (or the mech in some cases I guess!).

Atheus, on 08 May 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

Certainly some say at the high end of ELO it's just about nothing but assaults and heavies, which indicates there are balance issues, but that basically means that lights aren't going to be in the high ELO matches at all (unless they cap race their way into an ELO they don't have the skill to function at). It's no wonder cap racers have struggle to be seen as solid, respectable players by anyone other than other cap racers. They win matches against players they can't possibly win against in a fight, artificially inflating their ELO until they get embarrassingly blasted by someone, further reinforcing their notion that lights just can't fight, and are only good for cap racing.

Also this. I was thinking the other day 'man if I ran and capped alot (play lights alot recently) my ELO would go up...but I wouldn't get better at actual combat'. Cappers who cap alot and win, unless they're just good in general, are going to be pretty sorry when they begin facing off against people who can clean their clocks combatwise. I actually won't cap because of this, unless it's clearly going to be a cap war (or I'm alone in a big map and everyone on the other side who is left are assaults).

Plus, you know, the rewards for capping are just pathetic. Better to do damage and die. Being at the top of the ELOswarm playing with laser-precise PPC boats when all you know how to do is baserun is not the key to fun times.

Edited by Morikuro, 08 May 2013 - 11:03 PM.

[silentD11]

Morikuro, on 08 May 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Also this. I was thinking the other day 'man if I ran and capped alot (play lights alot recently) my ELO would go up...but I wouldn't get better at actual combat'. Cappers who cap alot and win, unless they're just good in general, are going to be pretty sorry when they begin facing off against people who can clean their clocks combatwise. I actually won't cap because of this, unless it's clearly going to be a cap war (or I'm alone in a big map and everyone on the other side who is left are assaults).

Plus, you know, the rewards for capping are just pathetic. Better to do damage and die. Being at the top of the ELOswarm playing with laser-precise PPC boats when all you know how to do is baserun is not the key to fun times.

Not really. The truth is that many high ELO players in heavies and assaults boating PPCs or using poptarts because of the current meta ran Ravens and Jenners when the meta used to favor them. They're also fully aware of base capping tactics, team splitting tactics and how to counter them. So if you're trying to run a light and base cap in high ELO, more often than not you WILL have to fight on a regular basis, usually against people who have played lights and damn well know any sort of tricks you could toss their way.

A high ELO doesn't just reflect individual combat skill, but also team skill and the ability to adapt to a situation. You'll find most higher ELO lights can fight just fine when they have to. Many of them turn out to be Bruce Lee if you corner them, or will bob and weave out of bigger conflicts to keep pressure on the already injured mechs.

Base caps only work against lower ELO "I don't do defense, I do TDM" types. You're going to end up fighting at the higher levels regardless because players actually have tactics.

The danger with a light is you die pretty much instantly. So while you can have matches with 5+ kills and a good amount of damage, you're also more at risk for being killed in the first two volleys sent your way. You just need to drop knowing it's all or nothing and be willing to laugh about it regardless of if you go on a rampage, get away with a cap, or just get blown up with 0 damage right off the bat.

[Morikuro]

silentD11, on 09 May 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

Base caps only work against lower ELO "I don't do defense, I do TDM" types. You're going to end up fighting at the higher levels regardless because players actually have tactics.

That's true, yeah. Though I'm more referring to middling players who actually climb the ELO ladder by just capping as a copout in derpy games where no one thinks to stop them and then run into matches where people will deal harshly with them. I've seen a few light players like that.

silentD11, on 09 May 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

The danger with a light is you die pretty much instantly. So while you can have matches with 5+ kills and a good amount of damage, you're also more at risk for being killed in the first two volleys sent your way. You just need to drop knowing it's all or nothing and be willing to laugh about it regardless of if you go on a rampage, get away with a cap, or just get blown up with 0 damage right off the bat.

That's fine. It's a fair tradeoff for the ability to control when you engage, how you engage and who you engage with. Because that's what movement is really about in MWO, control of circumstances. Assaults don't get that, they traded it away for lots of guns and armor. Even if you're the last guy alive on your team and 5 of them are coming after you, it still matters and can enable you to bait an overconfident light who desperately wants more kills after you, thus giving you a fight you can actually win before the blob shambles close enough to engage. It honestly makes it hard to go back to big pokey mechs, not having that freedom is so stifling.

[silentD11]

Morikuro, on 09 May 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

That's true, yeah. Though I'm more referring to middling players who actually climb the ELO ladder by just capping as a copout in derpy games where no one thinks to stop them and then run into matches where people will deal harshly with them. I've seen a few light players like that.



That's fine. It's a fair tradeoff for the ability to control when you engage, how you engage and who you engage with. Because that's what movement is really about in MWO, control of circumstances. Assaults don't get that, they traded it away for lots of guns and armor. Even if you're the last guy alive on your team and 5 of them are coming after you, it still matters and can enable you to bait an overconfident light who desperately wants more kills after you, thus giving you a fight you can actually win before the blob shambles close enough to engage. It honestly makes it hard to go back to big pokey mechs, not having that freedom is so stifling.

As to your first paragraph. Most sorts of "wins" in the lower ELO levels distort your perception of your skill. Sure, you can make an argument that capping to win will give you an artificially inflated ELO level. Because once you land in high ELO where everyone is using the current broken meta and playing as a team they know how to stop caps and kill lights. But on the other hand if you're using say a dual AC20 jagerbomb or any of the other builds that are good for pounding noobs to buff your win rate you're also going to have a hard time when you get into the higher ELO levels.

Really, unless your dropping with premades to make sure you see some strategy, using the current FOTM builds, and avoiding simply playing TDM you're going to be in for a very rude awakening when you hit higher ELO. Because people there will run FOTM builds, don't fall for derpy builds, will cap you and will stop your cap. There's just no way around this.

[Morikuro]

silentD11, on 09 May 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Really, unless your dropping with premades to make sure you see some strategy, using the current FOTM builds, and avoiding simply playing TDM you're going to be in for a very rude awakening when you hit higher ELO. Because people there will run FOTM builds, don't fall for derpy builds, will cap you and will stop your cap. There's just no way around this.

I now have to ask, is a Jenner F with 6 meds 'derpy'?

[silentD11]

Morikuro, on 09 May 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

I now have to ask, is a Jenner F with 6 meds 'derpy'?

No the Jenner's just fine in general, you just have to know how to drive the **** out of it. There are plenty of Jenner pilots that punch well outside their weight class. Jenners are more common at higher ELO than lower ELO really, and some of the more known pilots are really nasty.

[Vellinious]

I think I'm just going to start base capping every game. Yup, I'm sure of it.

[Keifomofutu]

Vellinious, on 09 May 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

I think I'm just going to start base capping every game. Yup, I'm sure of it.

Good ramp the metrics for base caps on the large maps up so high that PGI finally takes a look at the game mode.

Don't expect to get paid much for your wins though.

[Disapirro]

Neverfar, on 09 May 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

I'm amazed this garbage biased poll still exists.

Especially that question at the bottom: "do you prefer skill to win or speed hurrrrr".

Bloat boaters will do anything to try to perpetuate their K/D ratio padding, including lobbying to prevent people from having anything to do except walk up to their sniper lines.

No bias in this response at all.

[Atheus]

Vellinious, on 09 May 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

I think I'm just going to start base capping every game. Yup, I'm sure of it.

I actually did this for a day. Won pretty much 80% of the matches without firing a shot.

People were fuming - I urged them to vent their frustrations in the forums in my old thread: Please Fix "Capwarrior" Assault Mode. If anyone wants to read my treatise on the joys of base defense as a tactic, it's here.There was no shortage of rage, but there was quite a shortage of forum response.

Neverfar, on 09 May 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

Ah, but I am not making a poll.

If I was, the poll (if biased) would ask: "What do you think of this 'Assault Capture - Fun?'"

And the choices offered would be:

This poll is stupid.
OR
I love stupid polls!

There is a difference between bias in an opinion (inevitable) and bias in a poll (not inevitable).

I defy you to explain how capping out a base uncontested just minutes into a match has anything to do with skill or nothing to do with movement speed. If the options sound unpleasantly unequal to you, it's probably due to their foundation in reality.

Edited by Atheus, 10 May 2013 - 01:05 AM.

[Disapirro]

Neverfar, on 10 May 2013 - 03:06 AM, said:

Awesome. You just declared "reality" on the side of your opinion by saying so. Your application to Fox News should be accepted very soon!

Libtard as well, how nice.

[Atheus]

Neverfar, on 10 May 2013 - 03:06 AM, said:

Awesome. You just declared "reality" on the side of your opinion by saying so. Your application to Fox News should be accepted very soon!

Even if you feel that way (which makes me laugh, because there isn't much "Skill™" in putting a crosshair on some pixels and clicking, either), my point was the poll was stupidly biased even in how it presented the poll choices.

And judging by your attempt to defend it, it's right up your alley. You know, of stupid. Carry on.

So you can't, so instead switch to ad hominem attacks. Pretty weak.

Since "there isn't much "skill" in putting a crosshair on some pixels and clicking" (if that's true for you, you should be a world contender in the realm of competitive FPS, right?)? Or, what exactly draws you to FPS games in the first place? Aren't they a bit beneath you, since there's no skill involved? Oh I see, there are bases to capture for you skill-oriented players!

[zraven7]

Zerberus, on 07 May 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

You just summed up 95% of all balance and game mode discussions in 10 words or less. Where do I send my first born as a sacrifice?


With all due respect, expecting the outcome campaigns of planetary CONQUEST, where ASSAULTing and capturing specific objectives is the whole point of the campaign (as is the case in, well, ANY war ever faught by humans) to be decided by Team Deathmatches on random asteroids is somewhat delusional....

Or is that the way we fight wars today, we just drop 24 people into an arena and let them have at it, and whoever has last man standing wins?

I`m not sure, but last time I checked, the outcome of the Royal Rumble didn`t topple any governments

You may get TDM or similar, but I very highly doubt that matches with no strategic element whatsoever will be rewarded as if they had accomplised somethign someone might care about. To be honest, it just might **** off a few thousand people who see exactly that disconnect....

________

The fact of the matter is that the game modes as they stand today have ONE objective, and 2 ways to accomplish it, just like CS, and are actually very comparable in that respect (The whole discussion is an exercise in DejaVu to be honest).

Your objective is: Capture the enemy base / plant the bomb and let it blow

OR: Collect 750 resources / rescue the hostages.

And just like in CS, both objectives can beachieved either outright, or ALTERNATIVELY by eliminating anyone that could stop you. you either plant the bomb and the others dont def, or you kill them all and blow up the weapons dump afterwards. Same with hostages, you either rescue them out from under the nose of a team of n00bs, or you kill the other team and walk out with the hostages afterwards. Your objective, the PRIMARY objective (which is why it`s listed FIRST), is still unchanged.

The ONLY difference is that in MWO both teams have both goals, offensive AND defensive. plant an bomb and make sure the other team doesn`t plant theirs, so to speak.

And just like in CS beta .9 all the way through to Condition Zero, CSS, and GO, you have one half of the players that understand this (IMO) extremely basic of concepts and win most of their matches by virtue of superior tactics, ranging from better scouting and outflanking to intentional diversions to simply being patient and letting the oppponent make the first mistake instead of running headlong into a Firing Squad or known sniper hideout.

And you have the other half that either don`t understand it or dont care, but DO care enough to constantly whine on teh forums (or back then ICQ) about losing 9/10 matches because the enemy simply rescues the hostages, plants the bomb, caps the base, gets the resources. Simply becasue they can`t be arsed to do anything about it and/ or are too stubborn /narrow-minded /stupid to understand or accept that the fault for never seeing the enemy team is entirely theirs. No tactics, rudimentary communication if any, big guns and often no real idea how to use them effectively, no patience..... and all of that directly = no chance

Maybe you should simply accept the fact that people like me have been soloing 16 man teams of non-thinking campers and tactical n00bs for over 15 years and will continue to do so, just because we can.

And the best part is the adrenaline rush becasue we know it`s not becasue we`re that good, it`s becasue you`re sucking that hard and could (theoretically) stop at any time and become seriously dangerous.

MWO has been billed as a Thinking Man`s Shooter. It does not surprise me at all that people who`s capability of self reflection seem to be lacking would not feel comfortable here. I recommend Quake Live! Honestly. I have no interest in your misery, but all efforts to help you get out of it are bouncing off you like MG fire on an atlas, and all the whining about others being to blame for one`s own shortcomings does nothing but mark you for ridicule by others, further increasing your disappointment.

I think I just fell in love with you. Run away with me.

[Atheus]

Neverfar, on 10 May 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

Whining about ad hominem attacks then rapid-fire asking questions to me then answering them for me before I can respond is cute, and a fair dose of hypocrisy. And you follow with a reductio ad absurdum, bravo! Are you going for a new record?

You ran out of material that wasn't more and more of the same "I got mine, what you do is wrong, what I do is skilled™" a long time ago. It's a boring exchange now.

Like it or not, if all you self-declared "elite" people get your way without reservation, you tend to cave in the very games you claim to enjoy. I was there for Shadowbane when it self-destructed entirely under the blissful glee of unfettered predatory griefing and people left in droves and left it a barren wasteland of confused elitists that wondered who turned off the lights. That's not something that's smart for any game company wanting to stay in business to emulate.

Hey, you won't answer the questions, so I may as well toss a few theories out there. If you don't like my theory, feel free to jump in with some answers of your own, rather than just talking sideways all the time.

Edit: I forgot to point out, you sounded like you were proposing Reductio Ad Absurdum is a negative, was that your intention?

Edited by Atheus, 10 May 2013 - 04:21 AM.

[zraven7]

Ok, I'm noticing an irritating trend here.

Usually, a thread starts with someone who doesn't like the base capture mechanic. They usually post something vaguely insulting to people who use said mechanic, and encourage others not to do this (in this case, it would be the entire poll).

More often than not, someone in favor of base capture posts a logical explanation of the strategy behind it, the need for the win, something about Clan Warfare, and so on.

The person against base capture then screams the classic "so I should just stand on my base and do nothing" or "lights always running to base capture and costing people money" arguments. Check all the threads, they seriously always post that.

Generally, the person in favor of base capture, once again, tries to explain that they are not ALWAYS attempting base capture, but simply doing what is strategically viable.

At this point, the person against base capture starts riding down every tangent of every single argument made by people in favor of it. Either they keep repeating the bits about "just sitting on my base", or they find some little point the other person made about something vaguely related and start trying to cram it down someone's throat.

Eventually, the person in favor of base capture gets angry and argues back, at which point, the person against base capture tries to appear the calm, logical one, and denies that it was his incessant prodding that drove the other to anger.

I, personally, am done with this. I am not going to be driven into anger, or allowing myself to be misrepresented.

I am going to, from time to time, post a topic in "New Player Help" letting the new players know that it is completely fine to win by capture, and that they should practice doing it, and recognizing when is a good time to do it, since it will be a core mechanic come full game release, and clan warfare.

I will also make a post from time to time in "Game Balance" or "Game Modes" telling PGI that we are fine with the capture mechanic, which will allow others to voice said opinion, grow the thread, and show what we think.

I will not be arguing with people against base capture anymore. You all have no valid argument. If you want TDM, you should be crying out for TDM, not trying to guilt other players into not using a defined win condition.

You are all bullies, and you can't have my lunch money anymore.

[Atheus]

Neverfar, on 10 May 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

You're getting very tedious and boring to read, with all that self-aggrandizement and hair-splitting. If that's your intention, well played.

Take it as a sign of your glorious victory if it solopsistically satisfies you that you're getting too boring for me to respond to.

I suppose the amusing aspect of this is that in terms of debate you've essentially abandoned any pretense of reasoned argument and now act like the purpose of the forums is merely for people to amuse you. I suppose the best option is to go ahead and resume ignoring you. This is the third time you've retreated from me just as soon as the fire got too hot for you to handle with the pretense that you're just above the conversation. "Self-aggrandizement" lol. Look in a mirror, guy.

[Mercules]

Atheus, on 10 May 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

I defy you to explain how capping out a base uncontested just minutes into a match has anything to do with skill or nothing to do with movement speed. If the options sound unpleasantly unequal to you, it's probably due to their foundation in reality.

As I have stated before. The skill is in keeping me from your base. You lack it. Maybe when the game population starts trying to STOP base caps then we can see some skilled evasions. Until then, with 8 mechs clumped up in less than 1/4 of the map yeah, it doesn't take me much skill to circle around you. I would love to have to evade you guys, but no you would just rather call ME lame and ignore the fact that you are creating your own loss.

[zraven7]

Niko Snow, on 10 May 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

Interesting poll with interesting results.

Holy cow, a wild Niko appears! How goes things Dev-side?