90 replies to this topic

[Chaotic One]

This is another of "those" threads griping about how unbelievably screwed up this game it at the moment. Let's take a deep breath and think about the PPC/Sniping/Poptart issue. I am an old table top battletech player and have to say they have screwed the pooch on this one. Every hit was randomly rolled for the location the damage was applied to. This pinpoint convergence thing kind of borks the whole thing up; so why not discard some of the tabletop notions?

Things I would change.

1) Double (or more) the center torso armor only. I have died on a number of time with just my center torso damaged and this frickin sucks. Let' face it we all aim for the center torso doubling the armor will mean brawlers can finally do their jobs again.

2) Alpha's add 50% to heat. Would help with those 4 ERPPC builds.

3) Cockpit shake when you jump. It does not have to be bad just enough to make it more difficult to jump and shoot at the same time. It seems PGI may be pretty closed to this idea (read it in another post so it could be inaccurate) but this really needs to happen.

I look forward to any better ideas or reasons mine will not work.

[redreaper]

Armour has already been doubled.The problem atm is high alpha builds with pin point accuracy that suffer no real downside from firing 45-60 points of damage in one go. in my opinion heat dissipation should increase , the heat cap reduced to penalize alpha striking high damage high heat weapons and jump jet shake after that it may be worth looking into convergence again maybe a variation in impact location for torso and fixed weapons so they dont all hit the same spot with more accurate convergence for arm mounted weapons with full movement arms.

[Shadowsword8]

redreaper, on 05 May 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

Armour has already been doubled.The problem atm is high alpha builds with pin point accuracy that suffer no real downside from firing 45-60 points of damage in one go. in my opinion heat dissipation should increase , the heat cap reduced to penalize alpha striking high damage high heat weapons and jump jet shake after that it may be worth looking into convergence again maybe a variation in impact location for torso and fixed weapons so they dont all hit the same spot with more accurate convergence for arm mounted weapons with full movement arms.

Doing something to heat to prevent poptarting simply won't work. Most poptarters have 1 gauss + 2-3 PPC. It doesn't generate a terrific amount of heat, and at worst, they can spend one or two seconds longer behind their cover. If anything, it penalize any other tactic, like brawling, to a bigger extent, and some mechs more than others (good luck finding any Stalker that can fight without running hot).

Better solution: simply prevent large weapons from firing if you don't have your feet on the ground.

Edited by Shadowsword8, 05 May 2013 - 08:53 AM.

[redreaper]

increased heat dissipation would benefit brawlers and the lowering of the heat cap would discourage alpha striking also the jumpjet shake would help with poptarters add in possible adjustments to convergence like what i said in my first post and id say problems would be largely solved

[Ph30nix]

Shadowsword8, on 05 May 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Better solution: simply prevent large weapons from firing if you don't have your feet on the ground.

this is not a simple solution, this is a dumb solution

the best solution is for people to suck it up and learn to play.

[Bloody Moon]

Chaotic One, on 05 May 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

1) Double (or more) the center torso armor only. I have died on a number of time with just my center torso damaged and this frickin sucks. Let' face it we all aim for the center torso doubling the armor will mean brawlers can finally do their jobs again.

This would only penalize mechs with XL engine, no effect on poptarts whatsoever. The only difference it would make is that you'd be stripped of your weapons instead of being dead by the time you arrive at the enemy sniper's position, assuming you have standard engine ofc.

Chaotic One, on 05 May 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

2) Alpha's add 50% to heat. Would help with those 4 ERPPC builds.

Great, so under a given time period poptarts will jumpsnipe twice instead of 3 times. Not a big deal for them/us...
A good poptart will move quite often between sniping positions to avoid retaliation from enemy mechs with long range weapons and that gives plenty of time to cool down.

Chaotic One, on 05 May 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

3) Cockpit shake when you jump. It does not have to be bad just enough to make it more difficult to jump and shoot at the same time. It seems PGI may be pretty closed to this idea (read it in another post so it could be inaccurate) but this really needs to happen.

I look forward to any better ideas or reasons mine will not work.

Cockpit shake in itself would have no effect aside from a minor annoyance, except if it affects the recticle too unlike regular cockpit shake which could work, but this idea was mentioned hundreds of times already so no need for one more thread on it.

Edited by Bloody Moon, 05 May 2013 - 09:52 AM.

[RickySpanish]

May 8th Patch Notes:

Blah blah new paintjobs
Blah blah camos 1% off
Jump-jets now cause heat and camera shake based on their class.

You're welcome.

[Kdogg788]

It would have to affect the aim reticule as well. Jump sniping would then be half skill, half luck in order to hit your shots and hilarity would ensue with many missed alphas by the jump snipers. It's on the list of upcoming features soon, so hopefully they get right on this. I'd like them to overdue it in typical PGI fashion and implement an obnoxious amount of shake in the first pass. The forum tears from the jumpers will be epic.

-k

[Ph30nix]

Kdogg788, on 05 May 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

It would have to affect the aim reticule as well. Jump sniping would then be half skill, half luck in order to hit your shots and hilarity would ensue with many missed alphas by the jump snipers. It's on the list of upcoming features soon, so hopefully they get right on this. I'd like them to overdue it in typical PGI fashion and implement an obnoxious amount of shake in the first pass. The forum tears from the jumpers will be epic.

-k

making sniping rely on Luck is beyond ******** and just gives spank bank material to the die hard TT crowd.

and id prefer they make a mistake like with LRM appocolypse so all the noobs who cant cope with standard game stratagies would quit the game at least for awhile.

Edited by Ph30nix, 05 May 2013 - 10:07 AM.

[Echo6]

Ph30nix, on 05 May 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

making sniping rely on Luck is beyond ******** and just gives spank bank material to the die hard TT crowd.

and id prefer they make a mistake like with LRM appocolypse so all the noobs who cant cope with standard game stratagies would quit the game at least for awhile.

It's kind of stupid to hope that people will quit a f2p game so that you can continue to abuse a mechanic with impunity rather than just have the abuse corrected.

[Ph30nix]

Echo6, on 05 May 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

It's kind of stupid to hope that people will quit a f2p game so that you can continue to abuse a mechanic with impunity rather than just have the abuse corrected.

actually i have one mech that uses PPC's scratch that i have 2 mechs, my K2 (barly use anymore) and my 7M who i just finished mastering and will be moving on to hunchbacks or jenners next
PPC 155 9,444 4,386 46.44% 11:55:20 37,644
ER PPC 76 3,226 1,472 45.63% 05:53:47 13,860
MEDIUM LASER 750 38,673 32,207 83.28% 2 days 09:04:42 83,393 SRM 6 568 78,151 40,310 51.58% 1 day 17:10:48 87,971 LARGE LASER 121 4,373 3,344 76.47% 08:55:44 17,059


i just dont see any problem with sniping, poptarting or ppc's as they are now, i know how to handle them i know their weaknesses and i know how to use cover.

Edited by Ph30nix, 05 May 2013 - 10:25 AM.

[Echo6]

Ph30nix, on 05 May 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

actually i have one mech that uses PPC's scratch that i have 2 mechs, my K2 (barly use anymore) and my 7M who i just finished mastering and will be moving on to hunchbacks or jenners next
PPC 155 9,444 4,386 46.44% 11:55:20 37,644
ER PPC 76 3,226 1,472 45.63% 05:53:47 13,860
MEDIUM LASER 750 38,673 32,207 83.28% 2 days 09:04:42 83,393 SRM 6 568 78,151 40,310 51.58% 1 day 17:10:48 87,971 LARGE LASER 121 4,373 3,344 76.47% 08:55:44 17,059


i just dont see any problem with sniping, poptarting or ppc's as they are now, i know how to handle them i know their weaknesses and i know how to use cover.

But you wish the people who don't like the abuse of mechanics to quit so you can play without them. Have fun in your empty sandbox.

[Rebas Kradd]

redreaper, on 05 May 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

The problem atm is high alpha builds with pin point accuracy that suffer no real downside from firing 45-60 points of damage in one go.

As a high alpha build with pinpoint accuracy, I just want to point out three very real downsides to my 6LL Stalker.

1. Heat management. This is a *****, no doubt about it. I usually divide my 6LL's into groups for managing heat, but I'll often combine them all for an alpha on a crippled target. But I usually do so at the cost of shutting down (cool shots don't change this, they just delay it), and I'd darn well be careful about where I do it. Ten full seconds of vulnerability is a steep price to pay for that kill, and experienced opponents are usually watching and waiting for me to cash the check. Soon as I do, they're all over me, and that kill I risked shutdown for is often the last one I get.

2. Vulnerability to light mechs. Lights love me...for lunch. And I'm in the energy boat that's MOST ideal for bug-zapping. I can't imagine what a non-3F Stalker with PPC's does to handle those infuriating little ankle-biters. Whenever I drop into a match with a low weight total on my team (thus knowing the enemy has two or three lights), I spend the entire match praying that they don't realize I'm an energy boat and zero in on me like hungry dogs on a piece of meat. Accomplished Dragon pilots like one Saint71 have especially been my bane lately. (Of course, this requires skill and communication, and some people would rather PGI do all the work for them, even if it would turn the game into a flat brawlfest with no tactics involved.)

3. Boredom. Most people don't realize this, but unless you're a true K/D statwhore who cares for nothing else (I'm not), boating gets dull real fast. It may be a simplistic play style, but it's a support role, played with only one weapon, and the hankering for variety soon makes itself felt. I've still got my 6LL Stalker, but I've upgraded to an Atlas because I enjoy the challenge and variety of managing three different weapon systems instead of just grinding away with one. The K/D ratio from that grinding may be nice, but it's not all there is to my desired experience and it doesn't cut through the monotony.


I fully support the idea of internal damage for overheated mechs - it kills the immersion to think that hitting 150% heat does absolutely nothing - but I felt this discussion needs the perspective of a boater. It's not all peaches and cream by any means. It actually reminds me of the raging debate over AWP's being overpowered in Counter-Strike...if players would just be willing to swarm and communicate instead of cowering in trenches waiting for someone else to take the headshot, AWP's wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem. In fact, they'd be flat-out impotent.

[Ph30nix]

Echo6, on 05 May 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

But you wish the people who don't like the abuse of mechanics to quit so you can play without them. Have fun in your empty sandbox.

there is no abuse of mechanics going on, you jump your mech goes to a minimum of 7-10 heat, and your cockpit shakes some, You fire then go back down. If other team has long range weapons and is fast on the draw they will blast you in the face for your trouble. Ive had this happen to me many times. Happens at least once a day on my first Jump of a match to be hammered back down by about 4+ enemy mechs who were waiting for a Jumper to show their face.

what i wish would be for those QQ"ing would learn the various mechanics and playstyles of the game before whining that one needs changed when it doesnt.

right now besides honest to god bugs, and lack of content.
the only real problem in this game is the playerbase and their lack of ability to adapt and realize there is a solution for every single enemy mech/load out. It's called teamwork and it is one of the most over powered things in existance. It just takes actual skill to manage using because you have to unprogram yourself from all the years of ramboing it up in games like Counterstrike, COD and halo

Edited by Ph30nix, 05 May 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[RickySpanish]

Rebas Kradd, on 05 May 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

As a high alpha build with pinpoint accuracy, I just want to point out three very real downsides to my 6LL Stalker.

1. Heat management. This is a *****, no doubt about it. I usually divide my 6LL's into groups for managing heat, but I'll often combine them all for an alpha on a crippled target. But I usually do so at the cost of shutting down (cool shots don't change this, they just delay it), and I'd darn well be careful about where I do it. Ten full seconds of vulnerability is a steep price to pay for that kill, and experienced opponents are usually watching and waiting for me to cash the check. Soon as I do, they're all over me, and that kill I risked shutdown for is often the last one I get.

2. Vulnerability to light mechs. Lights love me...for lunch. And I'm in the energy boat that's MOST ideal for bug-zapping. I can't imagine what a non-3F Stalker with PPC's does to handle those infuriating little ankle-biters. Whenever I drop into a match with a low weight total on my team (thus knowing the enemy has two or three lights), I spend the entire match praying that they don't realize I'm an energy boat and zero in on me like hungry dogs on a piece of meat. Accomplished Dragon pilots like one Saint71 have especially been my bane lately. (Of course, this requires skill and communication, and some people would rather PGI do all the work for them, even if it would turn the game into a flat brawlfest with no tactics involved.)

3. Boredom. Most people don't realize this, but unless you're a true K/D statwhore who cares for nothing else (I'm not), boating gets dull real fast. It may be a simplistic play style, but it's a support role, played with only one weapon, and the hankering for variety soon makes itself felt. I've still got my 6LL Stalker, but I've upgraded to an Atlas because I enjoy the challenge and variety of managing three different weapon systems instead of just grinding away with one. The K/D ratio from that grinding may be nice, but it's not all there is to my desired experience and it doesn't cut through the monotony.


I fully support the idea of internal damage for overheated mechs - it kills the immersion to think that hitting 150% heat does absolutely nothing - but I felt this discussion needs the perspective of a boater. It's not all peaches and cream by any means. It actually reminds me of the raging debate over AWP's being overpowered in Counter-Strike...if players would just be willing to swarm and communicate instead of cowering in trenches waiting for someone else to take the headshot, AWP's wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem. In fact, they'd be flat-out impotent.

While I largely agree with your post, I have first hand evidence which suggests that boating one weapon doesn't become boring. The sad truth is that most people are simpletons, and the smallest things bring them a seemingly illogical amount of satisfaction. I've watched friends playing the same game over and over again, with the same weapon loadouts, the same strategy and the same maps (TF, CS, Instagib Unreal etc. etc.) for months and months without even thinking about changing things up. I think it's naive to think that just because you enjoy a challenge and discovering new mechanics and elements of a game, that other people are similarly intelligent.

[Echo6]

Ph30nix, on 05 May 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

there is no abuse of mechanics going on, you jump your mech goes to a minimum of 7-10 heat, and your cockpit shakes some, You fire then go back down. If other team has long range weapons and is fast on the draw they will blast you in the face for your trouble. Ive had this happen to me many times. Happens at least once a day on my first Jump of a match to be hammered back down by about 4+ enemy mechs who were waiting for a Jumper to show their face.

what i wish would be for those QQ"ing would learn the various mechanics and playstyles of the game before whining that one needs changed when it doesnt.

right now besides honest to god bugs, and lack of content.
the only real problem in this game is the playerbase and their lack of ability to adapt and realize there is a solution for every single enemy mech/load out. It's called teamwork and it is one of the most over powered things in existance. It just takes actual skill to manage using because you have to unprogram yourself from all the years of ramboing it up in games like Counterstrike, COD and halo

Yes, that's why they should all just quit objecting the abusive play and just quit the game entirely so that you can play in the sandbox by yourself.

[Kdogg788]

Ph30nix, on 05 May 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

making sniping rely on Luck is beyond ******** and just gives spank bank material to the die hard TT crowd.

and id prefer they make a mistake like with LRM appocolypse so all the noobs who cant cope with standard game stratagies would quit the game at least for awhile.

Are you serious? Really now? This does nothing to sniping as a controlled mechanic for mechs firing from the ground in covered positions. Firing while jumping is not sniping, and should be much much harder to deal pinpoint damage. This is a change for the betterment of the game. If you want an 85 or 70 ton mech to fly though the air while firing, expect a penalty to its aiming abilities.

-k

[Pac Man]

My fix to the problem here are quite similar to the consensus to fix, with a couple small changes.

Ballistic style weapons: There should be some small amount of uncontrollabe 'spray', either inaccuracy of the weapon, or the pilot, but in either case (or both), the ballistic style weapons shouldn't have perfect convergence all the time, including PPCs. There should be some randomness to the aim, so that at 700m+, you almost can't always converge all weapons.

PPC boats that use overheat, override, and fire-again tactics get some serious damage to their mech due to the heat. A 6 PPC Stalker builds up around 70% heat in one shot. If they do it twice, they hit around 130%, but they don't seemingly need to cool off that extra 30%, it seems to just go to 100% and start cooling from there. If you hit 100% heat, you should damage your Mech, period.

Poptarting, as has been mentioned, should be incredibly hard to aim while your jumpjets are putting out thousands of pounds of force. Perhaps at the Zenith of your poptarting you have a brief moment after you stop thrusting, and start falling, that you have a moment that the Mech is a bit more stabilized. But when (supposed to be) 10 tons of Ion Jets are thrusting you straight up, you shouldn't be able to aim well.

[johnyboy420]

from Battle tech wiki about jumpjets: Jumping makes a 'Mech harder to hit, but the accuracy of weapons fitted to the jumping 'Mech is also adversely affected

Because of the heat produced by jump jet activation and limited on-board fuel, jump jets can only maintain thrust for a few seconds. A far cry from flight, jump jets nevertheless allow a 'Mech to make short leaps sufficient enough to outmaneuver 'Mechs not similarly equipped or bypass obstacles and unfavorable terrain

but PGI wont do shake what else is there?

Edited by johnyboy420, 05 May 2013 - 11:26 AM.

[Tremendous Upside]

Kdogg788, on 05 May 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

It would have to affect the aim reticule as well. Jump sniping would then be half skill, half luck in order to hit your shots and hilarity would ensue with many missed alphas by the jump snipers. It's on the list of upcoming features soon, so hopefully they get right on this. I'd like them to overdue it in typical PGI fashion and implement an obnoxious amount of shake in the first pass. The forum tears from the jumpers will be epic.

-k

So you could just let off the button and shoot while the reticle is still. Its not like most snipers don't already have targets pretty much lined up before they jump. I know I do...