44 replies to this topic

[zraven7]

In the past few weeks, I've seen an increasing amount of threads concerning whether or not it acceptable to win by capture. A lot of the people against the practice say that it detracts from the experience, or that the people in favor of capturing can't fight, or that they are cowards.

Then, I came to a realization.

When the Clans first attacked the Inner Sphere, they, too, adhered to a strict code of ethics. They approached the Inner Sphere with this code of ethics intact, and fought according to this code.

The inner sphere took advantage of this, and used against them many times.

Eventually, the Clans learned that this strict adherence to a code did NOT mean that your opponent was going to adhere to the same code, and they adapted.

I'm seeing this capture/don't capture argument in the same light all of a sudden.

So, if you are opposed to a quick capture, and believe that it is cowardly to do so, go ahead. Call Zellbrigen.

Doesn't mean I have to listen, or care.

I'm a Lone Wolf of the Inner Sphere. I play to win. Eventually, you'll learn.

[Gallowglas]

The problem isn't that it is cowardly. It's that it's not compelling gameplay. Simply having people sit back on defense isn't a great solution either, particularly if you have no fast mechs on your team. If the cap attempt never comes, all you've done is kept a mech out of combat.

Edited by Gallowglas, 07 May 2013 - 10:31 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gallowglas, on 07 May 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

The problem isn't that it is cowardly. It's that it's not compelling gameplay. Simply having people sit back on defense isn't a great solution either, particularly if you have no fast mechs on your team. If the cap never comes, all you've done is kept a mech out of combat.

Your opinion sir. On the few times my Atlas has been in a capping party I was on the edge of my seat wondering if the enemy would see us before we reached their base.

[Atheus]

So you left the "Maps & Modes" forum where there are 4 threads discussing this very issue to come make this new, miscategorized thread in the gameplay balance section why? I guess you're not against making more work for moderators.

[Joseph Mallan]

To Cap, or not to Cap. That is the Game play issue!

[Gallowglas]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 May 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

Your opinion sir. On the few times my Atlas has been in a capping party I was on the edge of my seat wondering if the enemy would see us before we reached their base.

It's definitely my opinion. However, it's opinion based on some long-term tactical observation. Yes, you can probably get away with camping your base on River City. Try doing that on Tourmaline or Alpine though and it may not work out so well.

And I'm sure it's fine for the folks who are actively moving to cap. It's not as fine for the guy who decides he's going to sit back and defend on the off chance that he MIGHT see a cap attempt and who can't engage in combat while he does.

All that said, what usually happens is that one or both teams end up not fighting at all and end up getting a win based on who got their mechs into the base the soonest. That, IMHO, isn't what I consider great gameplay.

Edited by Gallowglas, 07 May 2013 - 10:43 AM.

[zraven7]

Atheus, on 07 May 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

So you left the "Maps & Modes" forum where there are 4 threads discussing this very issue to come make this new, miscategorized thread in the gameplay balance section why? I guess you're not against making more work for moderators.

This is an issue pertaining directly to gameplay balance. While I will take a capture win, anytime, I also do believe it is a little too easy in a lot of situations. I believe that assault is unbalanced when it comes to the capture aspect of the game. I believe capture times should be relative to the size of the map. I believe bases should have automated defenses, and that those defenses should issue a warning to players of that team when they are being attacked. I believe that a base capture should yield significantly more EXP and C-bills than it does. I think that if, at the end of 15 minutes, a base isn't captured or an entire team isn't destroyed, each team involved should get absolutely ZERO C-bills or EXP.

I'm not proposing a new map or mode. I'm talking about the balance, or lack thereof, of the game, as it stands. I'm talking about how there are a LOT of players who think the same way I do, and that, once territories and planets are on the line, if something doesn't change, lights will rule clan wars.

[Tatula]

More than anything, it's a FUN issue.

Early cap with no fighting by either side = no fun.
Walking back to base from the center of Alpine or Tourmaline = no fun.
Fighting ends at the heat of a battle because someone decides to end the match with a cap = no fun.

[zraven7]

Aloha, on 07 May 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

More than anything, it's a FUN issue.

Early cap with no fighting by either side = no fun.
Walking back to base from the center of Alpine or Tourmaline = no fun.
Fighting ends at the heat of a battle because someone decides to end the match with a cap = no fun.

And for the people who think winning is fun? Or that playing a sneaky play and getting to base without being spotted is fun?
If you want a mode where capturing isn't an option, or balances to be made to assault, I feel for you, honestly. However, fun is relative, and a lot of people, quite apparently, are having fun just fine.

[Tatula]

Sure. Winning is fun, especially if there is some fighting involved. I definitely did not install the game so I can walk or run around in a mech.

Your sneaky play style may be fun for you, but you're definitely in the minority. That's why people are complaining.

[zraven7]

Aloha, on 07 May 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Sure. Winning is fun, especially if there is some fighting involved. I definitely did not install the game so I can walk or run around in a mech.

Your sneaky play style may be fun for you, but you're definitely in the minority. That's why people are complaining.

THEN STOP ME! PLEASE!
Seriously, set up some spotters, have a light patrol a bit, scout, use a defensive formation, etc, etc...

I'm not trying to avoid a fight. I like fighting just as much. I'm just going to try to win, whatever path makes the most sense.

[Gallowglas]

The thing is, as much as I don't like assault base caps, I do recognize that they're better than having one last, wounded Commando hiding in a corner of Tourmanline, preventing the enemy from ending the match by hiding. As such, I DO think there has to be some capture mechanic. I just think it needs work. Something as simple as disallowing a cap on assault until 5 minutes into the match would go a long way toward improving gameplay.

Again, just MHO.

[zraven7]

Gallowglas, on 07 May 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

The thing is, as much as I don't like assault base caps, I do recognize that they're better than having one last, wounded Commando hiding in a corner of Tourmanline, preventing the enemy from ending the match by hiding. As such, I DO think there has to be some capture mechanic. I just think it needs work. Something as simple as disallowing a cap on assault until 5 minutes into the match would go a long way toward improving gameplay.

Again, just MHO.

I seriously think base defenses would help this a lot. Four medium laser turrets with 50 armor and 25 structure each would do it. Auto-targeting turrets would be hell on a light. Yeah, it wouldn't concern an assault much, but if you let the assault get to your base, well, ya did something wrong.

[Escef]

Gallowglas, on 07 May 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

All that said, what usually happens is that one or both teams end up not fighting at all and end up getting a win based on who got their mechs into the base the soonest. That, IMHO, isn't what I consider great gameplay.

With over 2000 drops under my belt I've seen that happen... Less than 5 times. Now, I admit, just me is a ridiculously small sample size. But something that happens less than a quarter a percent of the time? Why worry?

[Gallowglas]

Escef, on 07 May 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

With over 2000 drops under my belt I've seen that happen... Less than 5 times. Now, I admit, just me is a ridiculously small sample size. But something that happens less than a quarter a percent of the time? Why worry?

Either you or I are a statistical anomaly then. I've seen it happen a HUGE number of times and I also have 2000 drops (well, 1974 to be fair). It's happened on River City, Tourmaline, and Alpine more times than I can count. Granted, if I'm on the hilltop base, I've started encouraging my team to go lower city and stay near enough to defend, which certainly helps. On Tourmaline or Alpine you're kind of out of luck if you don't have a light mech who's willing to play interference though.

zraven7, on 07 May 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

I seriously think base defenses would help this a lot. Four medium laser turrets with 50 armor and 25 structure each would do it. Auto-targeting turrets would be hell on a light. Yeah, it wouldn't concern an assault much, but if you let the assault get to your base, well, ya did something wrong.

I agree on both those points.

Edited by Gallowglas, 07 May 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[Zyllos]

I actually think a lot of these problems stem from having only 1 life.

Regardless of the mission type and battlefield, if you only have 1 life, you are basically forced to have to keep yourself alive while killing someone else.

This makes the numbers advantage very important and once it starts going, it is really hard to rally back. This is why it is considered so poor to leave back a defender as you have now made the game 7v8.

But, once respawn comes into the game, and is done right (tonnage limit on the 4 selected mechs), you can afford to leave someone back to defend because if your team dies, it's not the end of the game (unless they can cap the base before your team respawns).

This is the way I see it going down with the DropShip (Lobby) system:

Up to 4 mechs can be readied up (but 1 only needs to be ready to drop)
Mechs in your dropship must total to at least 200t

This allows teams to drop heavy but with less respawns while teams could drop balanced for more respawns. In a 200t limit in an 8v8, the range of mechs is 16 to 32 mechs.

With the Assault and Conquest match type set up the way they are now, the DropShip mode will add a lot to the tactics in this game. And these tactics will only increase with 12v12, with a range of respawns from 24 to 48 mechs. With so many mechs, it would almost be certain that the majority of the games would end in the objective being complete.

Killing 24 to 48 mechs within the 15 minute time limit would be pretty hard. Especially if they end up splitting to attack different locations. This also hurts the viability of staying as a huge ball, because you might win the initial conflict, but if you don't have the speed to split up and capture other locations, those people who respawn will just go to where you are not.

[Escef]

Zyllos, on 07 May 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

But, once respawn comes into the game...

I'll likely uninstall.

[Tatula]

zraven7, on 07 May 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

THEN STOP ME! PLEASE!
Seriously, set up some spotters, have a light patrol a bit, scout, use a defensive formation, etc, etc...

I'm not trying to avoid a fight. I like fighting just as much. I'm just going to try to win, whatever path makes the most sense.

BUT I DO! I RTB to stop cappers ALL THE FREAKING TIME! And you know what? More often than not, they run away when I get there. That sounds like avoiding a fight to me. And if I don't make it back in time because the map is too big, they finish the cap. Again, that's another example of avoiding the fight.

[Zyllos]

Escef, on 07 May 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

I'll likely uninstall.

Better do it now, then. It will be coming in the next 3 months.

[Escef]

Zyllos, on 07 May 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

Better do it now, then. It will be coming in the next 3 months.

Source?