86 replies to this topic

[Prezimonto]

Playing a light mech is still a ton of fun, but with HSR making skirmishing much more difficult, the loss of meaningful spotting throughout a match because LRM's are terrible and ECM will still (after the BAP update) negate the ability of LRM's to lock at long ranges, and cap rewards actually being a penalty compared to a slug fest(especially with advent of Savior/Defense bonuses), the role of many light mech variants becomes questionable.

I propose that the rewards system for traditional scouting roles need to be greatly increased and done so in a way that will benefit scouting mechs.

I suggest the following:
1) Spotting needs to become a primary role in the game. When you first reveal an enemy mech for a lock by a team mate (regardless of if you've done damage) you should receive the spotting bonus for that mech. This should be a one time bonus for the first time each enemy mech is revealed. If this value were at 25XP x12 mechs = 300XP split among the finders. Becuase it's a first time only bonus, it will heavily trend towards fast mechs carrying TAG/Narc who actually scout. This is a meaningful amount of XP compared to Savior and Defense kills/assists(~2).

2) Split XP/Cbill rewards for damage done between the damager and the designated spotter. If a mech is the first to target the enemy and repeat that information(hold the lock for the team) the damage done to that mech(and kill of) results in XP/cbill/assist rewards and should be equally split between the damager and the spotter. This value will reward spotting roles as well as more equally balance the rewards through the whole team based on good game play like acquiring and calling targets. Everyone can benefit, but it provides a direct gameplay style for light scout mechs to fill.

3) Cap rewards need to be larger. When repair and rearm was in the game there was an associated penalty to balance the large rewards to damage and kills, which make cap rewards attractive. Since Savior and Defense bonuses were put in the game and R&R taken out the rewards for actually capping are negligible. Now you might say, "But Prezi, Defense rewards are centered on cap points!". This thread is about lights and the scout role. Defense rewards still only encourage fighting not capping. The total Cap rewards should be proportional to the number of mechs remaining in the game on the enemy team. They should be significant in both XP and cbills. If you back cap before the enemy has lost a mech you should earn about as much cbills and xp as you would have earned if you had fought all of them AND also won.

4) A straight cap reward based on %time spent capping. The capper(s) should receive a bonus split based on time on cap similar to a couple of Defense rewards (~300XP). This reward should be part of Assault and Conquest.

I would love other suggestions, (I'll try to add them to the poll).

This suggestion is an extension of the discussion in this thread if you care to read additional thoughts on the matter:
http://mwomercs.com/...-to-do-anymore/

Edited by Prezimonto, 08 May 2013 - 11:23 AM.

[Syllogy]

The game already rewards for scouting.

Spotting enemies, tagging them, and providing target locks are all bonuses that scouts already get.

Increased cap rewards are a negative because it would discourage fighting.

[Mercules]

Syllogy, on 08 May 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

The game already rewards for scouting.

Spotting enemies, tagging them, and providing target locks are all bonuses that scouts already get.

Increased cap rewards are a negative because it would discourage fighting.

-=Spotting Enemies - Only counts if someone throws an LRM launch at them. So... how many LRMs are you seeing flying through the air lately?

-=Tagging - Lasts very little time and takes up an Energy hard point. So... when your light mech gets 1-4 Energy slots and very little else for weaponry... would you take TAG? In order to get the benefit I have to hold that TAG on the enemy. This isn't so bad if I flank them and simply hold it there over time while my teammates fire upon it, but really isn't all that helpful for the team. Instead I could mount a Medium Laser and do actual damage to the mech.

Don't get me wrong when I have "spare" tonnage and Energy slots I'll happily throw a TAG on my mech or if I am going to be spotting for an LRM teammate I know I'll have I'll do the same. However, how often does a Spider/Command have spare of either? I mean a Jenner or Raven "might" take it, but as it cuts their firepower down significantly and offers such low return in rewards... they don't bother.

They need to separate TAG from Energy slots. When and if they do I will happily run a Spider with a TAG. Till then I am not cutting my Firepower in half or by 90% to get some marginal bonus XP.

You know who gets a TAG bonus XP all the time? Some of my Medium/Heavy/Assualt mechs because they have the tonnage and slots to spare in a lot of cases.

Basically anything a "Scout" chassis can get XP for in this game is received by all the other mechs and they sometimes have better options to gain it. Often the "Scouts" are out there hunting down those that might slip around the edges and are not the, "Closest mech to the targeted mech." and so don't get the Spotting bonus. Nope, that often goes to the AC/20 mech who is in bare knuckle distance to the enemy.

So really the "scouts" of the game are getting less damage/kills/assists than their teammates on top of their teammates getting the same if not more bonuses for the things put in to grant "scouts" XP.

[Deathlike]

Capping really shouldn't give significant bonuses... just small accumulating bonuses for changing the allegiance of the cap point (in Conquest).

Savior/Defense bonuses are pretty generous.. but capping should not be as generous though. If you don't finish the cap (in Assault), it's kinda meh in the grand scheme of things.

[ICEFANG13]

Wispsy and I were playing last night, we actually were surprised that so many people consider light mechs to be needing some love. He said it pretty well in that, players who are amazing with light mechs are still amazing, and do amazing things, but anyone else says that light mechs need some buffing of somesort.

Of course we are really good Jenner pilots with no interest in scouting. I think it would be logical not to encourage scouting as much to offer equal rewards to light mechs who truly would be doing IW or scouting, it would definitely make the light mechs very varied.

Edited by ICEFANG13, 08 May 2013 - 08:16 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Scouting doesn't work because we almost always have a good idea of where the enemy is going to be.

Look at the heat maps.

This stuff cannot be addressed by adding more exp/c-bills to a role that really doesn't exist.

All lights are, are skirmishers, and with each patch they are getting worse and worse at that role.

Until we have dynamic drop points and dyanmic base spawns, there will never be a real reason to scout.

[Mercules]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 08 May 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Scouting doesn't work because we almost always have a good idea of where the enemy is going to be.

Look at the heat maps.

This stuff cannot be addressed by adding more exp/c-bills to a role that really doesn't exist.

All lights are, are skirmishers, and with each patch they are getting worse and worse at that role.

Until we have dynamic drop points and dyanmic base spawns, there will never be a real reason to scout.

Do I have to go back through and check your posts for any "I hate Basecaps." posts?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Mercules, on 08 May 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

Do I have to go back through and check your posts for any "I hate Basecaps." posts?

I don't really post a lot on that subject.

I use base capping sometimes. It has it's place.

if I do complain it's more likely in the instance of "we are a 4 man lance of lights, and we are going to cap immediately, as a way to legally grief".

But to me this is not about capping.

it's about lights having a REAL role.

What happens when they introduce the attack/defend style of drop that they are talking about?

If the base always spawns in the same place, and the attackers always spawn in the same spot. What is the light mechs job?

[hammerreborn]

ICEFANG13, on 08 May 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

Wispsy and I were playing last night, we actually were surprised that so many people consider light mechs to be needing some love. He said it pretty well in that, players who are amazing with light mechs are still amazing, and do amazing things, but anyone else says that light mechs need some buffing of somesort.

Of course we are really good Jenner pilots with no interest in scouting. I think it would be logical not to encourage scouting as much to offer equal rewards to light mechs who truly would be doing IW or scouting, it would definitely make the light mechs very varied.

Other than brawling, light mech rewards sucks. I've always ran a scout Jenner. I've never not had TAG on my Jenner D.

JENNER JR7-D 667
TAG 772

The only time I get TAG bonuses is when I find a friendly raven with streaks. I get spotting bonuses occasionally. But mainly I capture the base, and get a craptastic 25k c-bills for it, something I could have gotten by alphaing like 4 times.

I won the game, captured the base/planet, and force an enemy surrender. I should get all their salvage (split with my team of course). It's not like we're letting them go on their dropship with their full mech lance.

"But Hammer!", you say, "That would just encourage cap rushing like in CB"

That's true, but then people will start defending their bases from a squad of lights.

"But Hammer!" you reply, "How would you know there's a squad of lights? What if both teams just sat in their bases for the 15 minutes".

A-ha! SCOUTING! That light scout can now inform the team where the enemy is positioning itself before the team begins moving out, and the dance of lights and mediums would commence as attempts to backcap would be met and handled, with both teams constantly falling back to the assaults to lick their wounds until one team finally gives way.

Or, people play as they do now, and lights rake in the cash, either way works for me.

[80Bit]

I think that light mechs, and medium mechs, could use some reward love. But I disagree that scouting should be specifically rewarded, because there are a lot of situations where it would cause bad game play for the sake of rewards. For example in World of Tanks the person that first spots a specific enemy gets a reward. This leads to scouts racing each other into the enemy mob and getting killed.

I think that they should make Light and Medium mechs get a higher reward for damage done though, since disproportionate damage is what leads to light and mediums making less than heavies and assaults overall.

[Shumabot]

The game needs a reason for scouting to be useful, not rewards for useless behavior. Right now scouting is a joke, barely useful on tourmaline and useless on every other map in the game. Until the information the scouts provide is both useful and unattainable by an atlas there will be no purpose to them and rewarding behavior that is detrimental to a teams chances of victory is the opposite of a good design decision.

Edited by Shumabot, 08 May 2013 - 09:00 AM.

[hammerreborn]

80Bit, on 08 May 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

I think that light mechs, and medium mechs, could use some reward love. But I disagree that scouting should be specifically rewarded, because there are a lot of situations where it would cause bad game play for the sake of rewards. For example in World of Tanks the person that first spots a specific enemy gets a reward. This leads to scouts racing each other into the enemy mob and getting killed.

I think that they should make Light and Medium mechs get a higher reward for damage done though, since disproportionate damage is what leads to light and mediums making less than heavies and assaults overall.

Well those people wouldn't get any further rewards because they're already dead, so it kinda sorts itself out.

[Mercules]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 08 May 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

I don't really post a lot on that subject.

I use base capping sometimes. It has it's place.

if I do complain it's more likely in the instance of "we are a 4 man lance of lights, and we are going to cap immediately, as a way to legally grief".

But to me this is not about capping.

it's about lights having a REAL role.

What happens when they introduce the attack/defend style of drop that they are talking about?

If the base always spawns in the same place, and the attackers always spawn in the same spot. What is the light mechs job?

Oh, don't get me wrong. I agree changing bases will give Scouts another purpose but that does not address the core issue. The main issue with running a Mech set up to Scout is that you get hardly any XP. Even with random spawning starting locations it is almost easier to run a "faster" Heavy or at least a fast Medium since they have access to ALL the bonuses a light Scout might have and have more armor and firepower.


Getting 1k+ XP in a match on my Trebuchets and Jaggers was blindingly easy. I've had 1 match in my Spider over 1K and that was because of bad players on the other team that simply let me shoot the crap out of their backs. Saviour kills on top of getting the kill is a huge thing for XP.

I could throw a TAG in the Spider but in the 5D I am cutting my firepower by at least a third, in the 5V in half, and in the 5K I am cutting it by about 95%. Commandos have it better as they mostly use SRMs and SSRMs for main damage but in some cases you are losing your backup weapons to put in a TAG. Jenners want to do some large Alphas and so don't like to give up one of their lasers. Ravens may or may not mount a TAG and really an Atlas could mount a TAG and get XP bonuses for using it, probably easier than the Lights that need the XP boost from it to get even more XP.

The underlying problem is that it is not profitable to run a light mech. So when there is suddenly an honest need for them.... It's not who wants to, it is "Who is going to take one for the team and earn less so that this Role is covered?" I'd do it for less C-bills and XP, but a lot of people won't like it.

Edited by Mercules, 08 May 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[hammerreborn]

Mercules, on 08 May 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

Oh, don't get me wrong. I agree changing bases will give Scouts another purpose but that does not address the core issue. The main issue with running a Mech set up to Scout is that you get hardly any XP. Even with random spawning starting locations it is almost easier to run a "faster" Heavy or at least a fast Medium since they have access to ALL the bonuses a light Scout might have and have more armor and firepower.


Getting 1k+ XP in a match on my Trebuchets and Jaggers was blindingly easy. I've had 1 match in my Spider over 1K and that was because of bad players on the other team that simply let me shoot the crap out of their backs. Saviour kills on top of getting the kill is a huge thing for XP.

I could throw a TAG in the Spider but in the 5D I am cutting my firepower by at least a third, in the 5V in half, and in the 5K I am cutting it by about 95%. Commandos have it better as they mostly use SRMs and SSRMs for main damage but in some cases you are losing your backup weapons to put in a TAG. Jenners want to do some large Alphas and so don't like to give up one of their lasers. Ravens may or may not mount a TAG and really an Atlas could mount a TAG and get XP bonuses for using it, probably easier than the Lights that need the XP boost from it to get even more XP.

The underlying problem is that it is not profitable to run a light mech. So when there is suddenly an honest need for them.... It's not who wants to, it is "Who is going to take one for the team and earn less so that this Role is covered?" I'd do it for less C-bills and XP, but a lot of people won't like it.

Its sad, because back when R&R was present, you took lights and mediums because that's how you made money, and you had a fairly healthy class distribution overall. Now without R&R, they are the worst way to get money, and there is no incentive other than being a self-loathing person to playing a light/medium at this time, which is reflected in their population totals.

EDIT: Really? That word was bleeped?

Edited by hammerreborn, 08 May 2013 - 09:37 AM.

[Mercules]

hammerreborn, on 08 May 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Its sad, because back when R&R was present, you took lights and mediums because that's how you made money, and you had a fairly healthy class distribution overall. Now without R&R, they are the worst way to get money, and there is no incentive other than being a self-loathing person to playing a light/medium at this time, which is reflected in their population totals.

Some part of me wants to go back and find my old posts predicting this swing. Why were Medium mechs the "Workhorse of the IS."? Simply because they were cheap enough to buy and maintain while getting the job done. Assaults were for major battles and Heavies to be lynchpins in other combats. With no "costs" associated with mechs other than the initial purchase and rewards weighted towards shooting there is less incentive to run anything but Heavy/Assault.

[stjobe]

Mercules, on 08 May 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

it is almost easier to run a "faster" Heavy or at least a fast Medium since they have access to ALL the bonuses a light Scout might have and have more armor and firepower.

That's the problem in a nutshell; there's no incentive to use lights for scouting since scout rewards are available to all.

If one looks at Dev Blog 4, this wasn't what was intended; these things were for the Scout role only:

* Radar Range Increase – Increases radar range by 2% up to 5 times
* Ghost Signature – Increases length of time before a signal fades by 2% up to 3 times
* Vision Mode 1 - Zoom Vision – Allows the pilot to zoom 7x
* HUD Detail 1 – Enemy Damage Level – LOD detail in terms of damage
* HUD Detail 2 – Enemy Component State – Overall component criticality
* Null Signature System – Allows the pilot to appear shut down for 5 seconds
* Multi-Targeting – Allows the pilot to target multiple enemies up to 4 at a time.
* IDF Accuracy – Narrows the AOE of IDF fire.
* Critical Shot Indicator – Shares with nearby friendly BattleMechs the critical components of an enemy BattleMech

Most of those things are now available to everyone, and some of them have been lost along the way.

In my opinion, the PGI devs need to go back and re-read Dev Blog 4 and start implementing it.

Until that happens (I'm not holding my breath), or the game starts rewarding other things equally as well as damage, kills, and assists, lights need something to tide them over.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Mercules, on 08 May 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

Oh, don't get me wrong. I agree changing bases will give Scouts another purpose but that does not address the core issue. The main issue with running a Mech set up to Scout is that you get hardly any XP. Even with random spawning starting locations it is almost easier to run a "faster" Heavy or at least a fast Medium since they have access to ALL the bonuses a light Scout might have and have more armor and firepower.


Getting 1k+ XP in a match on my Trebuchets and Jaggers was blindingly easy. I've had 1 match in my Spider over 1K and that was because of bad players on the other team that simply let me shoot the crap out of their backs. Saviour kills on top of getting the kill is a huge thing for XP.

I could throw a TAG in the Spider but in the 5D I am cutting my firepower by at least a third, in the 5V in half, and in the 5K I am cutting it by about 95%. Commandos have it better as they mostly use SRMs and SSRMs for main damage but in some cases you are losing your backup weapons to put in a TAG. Jenners want to do some large Alphas and so don't like to give up one of their lasers. Ravens may or may not mount a TAG and really an Atlas could mount a TAG and get XP bonuses for using it, probably easier than the Lights that need the XP boost from it to get even more XP.

The underlying problem is that it is not profitable to run a light mech. So when there is suddenly an honest need for them.... It's not who wants to, it is "Who is going to take one for the team and earn less so that this Role is covered?" I'd do it for less C-bills and XP, but a lot of people won't like it.

I agree, but just adding random fluff things that give more exp/c-bill is not the answer.

You need to give them a scouting role. THEN adjust the c-bills and exp to be viable.

Right now there is no real scouting. So just giving them more exp/c-bills is silly.

I'd be fine if real scouting was required and spotting mechs and finding their base via targetting it would give a bunch of stuff to the scout. And even tier it so first scout to find it isn't the only one to benefit. If a second scout finds them, give them some. Maybe limit to 4 since we'll have 12 v 12 and theoretically you'd want a scout lance.

stjobe, on 08 May 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

That's the problem in a nutshell; there's no incentive to use lights for scouting since scout rewards are available to all.

If one looks at Dev Blog 4, this wasn't what was intended; these things were for the Scout role only:

* Radar Range Increase – Increases radar range by 2% up to 5 times
* Ghost Signature – Increases length of time before a signal fades by 2% up to 3 times
* Vision Mode 1 - Zoom Vision – Allows the pilot to zoom 7x
* HUD Detail 1 – Enemy Damage Level – LOD detail in terms of damage
* HUD Detail 2 – Enemy Component State – Overall component criticality
* Null Signature System – Allows the pilot to appear shut down for 5 seconds
* Multi-Targeting – Allows the pilot to target multiple enemies up to 4 at a time.
* IDF Accuracy – Narrows the AOE of IDF fire.
* Critical Shot Indicator – Shares with nearby friendly BattleMechs the critical components of an enemy BattleMech

Most of those things are now available to everyone, and some of them have been lost along the way.

In my opinion, the PGI devs need to go back and re-read Dev Blog 4 and start implementing it.

Until that happens (I'm not holding my breath), or the game starts rewarding other things equally as well as damage, kills, and assists, lights need something to tide them over.

I really want all those things to be added for sure.

But I still think that the real concept of scouting cannot happen as long as we always know where the enemy is.

[hammerreborn]

I'd kill for the multi-targetting module if it was scout only. I was hoping theyd add that to BAP rather than the ECM minor counter, but so it goes.

[Prezimonto]

Nicholas, I think the only additional bonus you might be against given you position on lack of scouting being useful is the first one. Every other addition in the list rewards good game play, and even works to change the metagame away from purely "kill the enemy" as the primary reward.

Splitting rewards for a spotter with the damager (perhaps not evenly, but I'd think at least 25%) would encourage everyone to be hitting "R" and assigning targets.

Changing the way the game handles capture points, into a MEANINGFUL reward, can only make the game more tactical. It can only make you have to make more choices than move in a pack and kill all the things.
This is really what I don't understand. Everything in the mechwarrior world is about strategic, tactical, or political advantage(outside of solaris). Mechs are painfully expensive machines to commit to an objective. This is has been the primary focus of every mechwarrrior title... objectives, goals of strategic, tactical, or political importance on wide scale. Mechs and killing them comes second in nearly every way. If you make the objective the focus of the game, tactical choices (taking different routes, defending the base or your dropship) become key.

Right now NONE of that has a significant reward compared to killing the enemy.
I can think of a game mode I'd call "Raid": It's similar to Assault in many ways.
Team A:
Objective A: Destroy the refinery. Scaling rewards with damage done(DPS better than alpha, favors light/medium mechs)
Objective B: Defend the dropship: (favors heavy/assault mechs)
Objective C: Make it to extraction point(dropship) in 15 minutes or less. Scaling rewards with number of mechs alive.(mobility favors light/medium mechs)
Objective D: Kill enemy mechs Only activates if you lose objective B.

Team one has the following objectives, which only open up
Objective A: defend the refinery (favors heavy/assault mechs) until reinforcements arrive (15 minutes)
Objective B: destroy the enemy dropship/extraction point (favors fast/strikers/dps builds)
Objective C: Survive: Scaling rewards with number of mechs alive.
Objective C: kill all enemy mechs: Only activates after achieving objective B.

This type of game play would reward tactical decision making, preserve the essential goal of "assault", and give a much more mech-warrior feel to the game.

Edited by Prezimonto, 08 May 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[Prezimonto]

@ Icefang: I agree that the jenner still is a great mech in the current rewards system. Jenners and Ravens are made to skirmish, which is well rewarded. Commando's and Spiders are not.